Grey Knights

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**gummyofallbears**

are Grey Knights considered overpowered currently?

I would assume its just hate flowing from 5th edition, however, I see a lot of that hate, and I see a lot of people that say the dex is underpowered.

I am thinking of siding with the latter, for the simple reason that they have a lot of holes to plug in their dex and kinda requires allies to fill said holes.

They are a SUPER psychic army, focusing with said psychic powers to buff their good CC unit's survivability and and attacking power, with crappy shooting, lack of unit options, but great mobility for a IoM army, and seem to be one of the few CC armies that actually works in a way different to the other CC armies.

thats just my $0.02, agree? Disagree? Discuss!

oh, and PS: ignore allies, they don't count, mainly because they have access to like half the game when it comes to allies options.

**Vaktathi**

gummyofallbears wrote:
are Grey Knights considered overpowered currently?

No, they are not. They have one abuseable trick which is building a deathstar around Draigo for 2++invul shennanigans, but it's probably the least scary iteration of that sort. Aside from that, most of the stuff that made them so powerful in 5E either simply isn't as good anymore (most Nemesis Force Weapons can't ignore 2+ saves), or got removed (psybolt ammo, and cheap/spammable INQ units).

Relative to stuff like Necrons, Eldar, AdMech and Space Marines, they're rather tame. .

**Rihgu**

At a non-competitive level, I'd say we're still pretty OP because of the Nemesis Strike Force detachment.

Null deploying and then placing your entire army in their deployment zone turn 1 is pretty nasty and unless your opponent knows that that strategy even exists they can quickly be overwhelmed by it.

Granted, we're worse at it than drop pod based lists because we still have to be scared of scatter, but damn is it hard for an enemy to kill/neutralize 4+ units of power armor (with force weapons and potential hammerhand!) and 2+ units of terminators (or just 4+ units of terminators) and some monstrous creatures without the liberty of several turns of shooting.

Of course, if you deep strike into a nest of interceptor/plasma or grav toting soldiers, you're gonna have problems...

**jeffersonian000**

The strength behind the NSF isn't the turn 1 roll to Deep Strike, but the Battle Focus upon arrival, which allows for adjustments and spreading out without disrupting shooting.

SJ

**Grubass**

No they are just a mid tier faction. The way shooting makes getting into cc, losing inq and ap2 grav d weps making the meta life of an usual gk is not filled with roses. However each time when I drop my purifiers out of rhino/storm I hear how gks are full of...

**Hawkeye888**

The hate still flows from 5th. They aren't close to OP right now.

**vipoid**

They have a couple of OP units in the DK and Draigo (and even then there's definitely much worse stuff out there), but that's about it. The army itself certainly isn't top-tier.

TO be honest, I think it's more likely to come down to what units they use and what they face:

1) A list with 2 DKs, Draigo-terminators (and whatever else you include to make up the points) probably won't be much of a concern to the 7.5 books. Eldar will Shrug and D-weapon them, Marines will shrug and Grav them etc. However, then you have the 6th and pre-necron 7th books - many of which may struggle a lot more against them.

2) Some lists care about force weapons, S10, S6 AP4 flamers and/or in-your-face-turn-1 a lot more than others. e.g. a DE Coven list (which relies exclusively on multiple-wounds and FNP for protection) is probably going to have a really bad day. Same goes for any MC-heavy 'nid list or Nob-heavy ork list. Meanwhile, jumping incinerators and heavy incinerators can do nasty things to a boy-heavy list, or any other list with a lot of lightly-armoured infantry. Moreover, many shooting armies may not fare well when your entire army can be in their deployment zone on turn 1.

TLDR GKs aren't OP compared to Eldar, Space Marines and such - but they still have some very strong units and are practically a hard-counter to several armies. So, perspective is also important.

**jeffersonian000**

GK are currently a solid tier 2 army. The only thing OP about them is the fear/hate left over from 5th. Although Sanctic is pretty powerful if you roll up Vortex, Gate, Sanctuary, or Cleansy Flame. NDKs seem like OP units on paper, but they still die the small arms fire due to only being T6. And while the bulk of the army has a 2+ armor save, they lack Storm Shields, and there's Grav and Plasma. The current GK do seem to be conceived for playing Maelstrom, which does lend itself to a better win average when playing with cards.

SJ

**vipoid**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
NDKs seem like OP units on paper, but they still die the small arms fire due to only being T6.

Eh?

What small arms fire do you see that kills T6 models with a 2+ save?

Next question, where do I get some?

**jeffersonian000**

vipoid wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
NDKs seem like OP units on paper, but they still die the small arms fire due to only being T6.

Eh?

What small arms fire do you see that kills T6 models with a 2+ save?

Next question, where do I get some?

Bolters. You already have them.

SJ

**Grey Templar**

Not even close to OP. Our strongest units are still countered by common tactics.

Dreadknights are OP in a vacuum, but the fact they're a melee MC that has to get into the optimal range band for its counters means that its fairly balanced in actual gameplay. Unlike the Riptide or Wraithknight who can sit back at long range and be almost completely safe. 2+/4+ T6 with 4 wounds is not hard to kill. Especially when it costs 200+ points minimum.

A GK army really only has one trick. Thats deep striking on turn one with the Nemesis Strike Force detachment and Sanctic psychic power spam. We can get a decent alpha strike in, but we're heavily dependent on rolling the right powers. We can be heavily mobile, if we get the right powers.

Its easier to get the right powers, but its still fickle. I usually have 3 HQ choices just so I can be reasonably confidant in getting the necessary powers.

**vipoid**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
NDKs seem like OP units on paper, but they still die the small arms fire due to only being T6.

Eh?

What small arms fire do you see that kills T6 models with a 2+ save?

Next question, where do I get some?

Bolters. You already have them.

SJ

Really?

DKs aren't overpowered because 54 bolter shots can inflict a wound on them?

**Grey Templar**

Its a combination of bolter fire along with other ap2 shooting.

jeffersonian000 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
NDKs seem like OP units on paper, but they still die the small arms fire due to only being T6.

Eh?

What small arms fire do you see that kills T6 models with a 2+ save?

Next question, where do I get some?

Bolters. You already have them.

SJ

Exactly.

My Dreadknights usually die as follows.

Turn 1: I lose a wound to lascannons or other similar weapons.

Turn 2: I either die to a combination of plasma/melta and stray bolter fire OR I survive because my saves were better than average and/or my opponent rolled like crap and I make it into melee.

Turn 3: My DK is usually dead at this point.

I've lost many DKs to overwatch too as I usually only have 1 wound left at this point.

**alex0911**

Oh god please... I play GK and lets be honest... They arent what they were... Bring 1 squad of centurions with grav guns and game over my friend... If you ally them, its a different story... Still, Grey knights are fun to play vs friends !

**GangstaMuffin24**

I'll echo Grey Templar on Dreadknights.

I look at mine basically as bullet sponges. If they survive long enough to kill something valuable in CC, then they've more than paid for themselves. As long as your opponent is shooting the DK, the rest of your army is relatively safe and free to move up.

**vipoid**

I wish the Dreadknights in my area were that easy to take down.

This is my experience with them:

Turn 1 - both DKs teleport up the field, cast Sanctuary and then each roast a unit with Heavy Psycannon and Incinerator.

They then shrug off massive amounts of fire, with maybe one of them taking a wound.

Turn 2 - DKs each move in to shoot and then assault key targets. Assuming the target survives their shooting, they're generally eliminated in combat and inflict no damage back.

DKs again shrug off massive amounts of fire, maybe taking 1 wound each - if that.

Turn 3 - Basically a repeat of turn 2, with two more units being eliminated.

If we're lucky, one DK might die at this point, though the damage they've already inflicted (not to mention the rest of the GK army) means there's often not much left to shoot them.

Turn 4 - If both DKs are still alive, it's probably endgame by this stage as there simply won't be enough left to deal with them. If one is dead, then the other carries on the usual 'shoot and assault'.

If your DKs really die to overwatch and bolters, then all I can say is that I really want those bolters. One of my main armies is DE, and I would have thought that tons of poison and darklight shots would do the trick, but the damn things just don't die. With regard to overwatch, I've never seen a DK so much as take a wound from overwatch, let alone die from it.

But then, I've yet to see overwatch do meaningful damage to to *any* unit.

**Grey Templar**

You obviously don't have enough plasma/equivalent in your army. Its really no more survivable than 6 terminators. You can kill 6 terminators right? That or your GK opponent never fails a save.

Since the GK list really doesn't have any vehicles, you can turn all your anti-vehicle on the DK. All those Dark Lances you have should melt a DKs face. They evaporate once you've put 2-3 wounds on them. Then its one unlucky save away from dying.

**vipoid**

Grey Templar wrote:
You obviously don't have enough plasma/equivalent in your army.

Other than taking Blasters/Dark Lances on every unit that can have them (which I already do) I'm open to suggestions on what other 'plasma equivalents' (or, better yet, Grav equivalents) I should be taking in my DE.

Grey Templar wrote:
Its really no more survivable than 6 terminators. You can kill 6 terminators right?

Sure. But I'll also point out that 6 terminators can't be in my deployment zone on turn 1. Nor can they move 12" each turn and fly over intervening units. Nor are they T6. Nor are they S10. It might surprise you to learn that these things really diminish my options.

For example, I have multiple melee units that I can send against terminators (Grotesques, Incubi etc.), but none whatsoever which can threaten a DK. The Incubi need 6s to even hurt it (and the Klaivex can't get Rampage for extra attacks), the Grots have no AP, and both will be utterly obliterated by S10 AP2 attacks. Even characters are useless as Succubi are no better than Incubi at wounding, Archons lack the necessary AP and Haemonculi are just garage.

Moreover, with 6 terminators each one I kill diminishes their offensive capabilities. The DK, in contrast, functions at full strength until it loses its last wound.

**Grey Templar**

vipoid wrote:

Sure. But I'll also point out that 6 terminators can't be in my deployment zone on turn 1.

If you are facing Grey Knights, yes they can. And probably will.

**vipoid**

Grey Templar wrote:
vipoid wrote:

Sure. But I'll also point out that 6 terminators can't be in my deployment zone on turn 1.

If you are facing Grey Knights, yes they can. And probably will.

True.

**Grey Templar**

Of course it depends.

If my psykers roll up Cleansing Flame and Gate of Infinity I'll be deep striking in, using Cleansing Flame to hit all your stuff with 2D6 Str5 hits each, then Gating out of there.

**jeffersonian000**

I play my GK very aggressively, dropping into my opponent's deployment zone as soon as I can, focusing down soft targets. The rest of the game my opponent is following the pace I set.

However...

My troops cost 33ppm before upgrades, and my two heavy hitters are 225 points each. Which means I'm generally outnumbered 3 or more to my 1, which is why I play aggressively. An opponent toting Grav/Plas will eat my lunch if I make any mistakes. That's the glory of a GK army, it's a Master Class army that requires the player to make less mistakes than their opponent. Other armies are more mistake friendly, such as Eldar and Tau.

SJ

**Martel732**

Hah! All my targets are soft targets so I will beat you with brain lock!

**vipoid**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
I play my GK very aggressively, dropping into my opponent's deployment zone as soon as I can, focusing down soft targets. The rest of the game my opponent is following the pace I set.

However...

My troops cost 33ppm before upgrades, and my two heavy hitters are 225 points each. Which means I'm generally outnumbered 3 or more to my 1, which is why I play aggressively. An opponent toting Grav/Plas will eat my lunch if I make any mistakes.

In my group, Grav is the only thing I've seen that caused real problems for GKs.

From what I've seen, plasma is usually less of an issue (compared to Grav, at least) as it tends to be available in similar concentrations, but gets fewer than half the shots and lacks the rerolls to wound).

jeffersonian000 wrote:

Other armies are more mistake friendly, such as Eldar and Tau.

I've heard some people say that even the new eldar are really unfriendly to mistakes. I remain unconvinced about that...

**Lobokai**

No they are not OP, in fact I'd put them pretty close to the bottom for tournament play.

I'd echo Jeffersonian... GK require aggression and careful management to work... ironic that they've gone from the OP dex to the Dark Eldar of 7th

**Grey Templar**

Nothing new for me. I started when the codex was Daemon Hunters.

**jeffersonian000**

I too have been playing them since 3rd, first as a cautious Water Warrior, then later as an aggressive Ghostwing. All I did when the newest codex came out was put Mordrak and his Ghost Knights on the shelf, and dust off Draigo.

SJ

**vipoid**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
I too have been playing them since 3rd, first as a cautious Water Warrior, then later as an aggressive Ghostwing. All I did when the newest codex came out was put Mordrak and his Ghost Knights on the shelf, and dust off Draigo.

SJ

Out of interest, what does your army look like?

**gummyofallbears**

so, the general consensus is that grey knights are kinda meh.

ok, thats what I thought.

and so from what I understand, the only OP thing they have is draigo, and what makes him so OP?

AP2 at initiative is kinda meh now that the wraithknight exists, and he is only ML2 if I remember correctly

**GangstaMuffin24**

gummyofallbears wrote:
so, the general consensus is that grey knights are kinda meh.

ok, thats what I thought.

and so from what I understand, the only OP thing they have is draigo, and what makes him so OP?

AP2 at initiative is kinda meh now that the wraithknight exists, and he is only ML2 if I remember correctly

He's a great beatstick unit, comes with Gate of Infinity which is considered one of the better powers, and can get his 3++ to a 2++ if a librarian in his squad brings Sanctuary.