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Ok, here are the rules for the question/experiment:

1) Master-crafted allows 1 re-roll on a failed to-hit per turn.

2) Pistol weapons count as a close combat weapon in the assault phase.

So the question is: If you have a Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol, and use it in the assault phase(instead of any other melee weapons) as a CCW, do you get the single re-roll on a failed to hit?

I wouldn't think so.

A pistol counts as a CCW in melee. The Master Crafted rule is applied to the pistol. When you are using it as a CCW, you're not using the rules of pistol, you're using the rules of a CCW.

Some previous editions have allowed it to apply to either on weapons that can specifically be used both for shooting and melee, but without that specific permission it doesn't look doable to me.

Special Rules on Pistols do not transfer to the Close Combat Weapon use. The rules specifically address this.

If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored.
-Pistols as Close Combat Weapons

I am aware of the profile on the pistol(including special rules) being ignored when used as a CCW; but I am not really talking about something like a relic: more, say, a bolt pistol on a vet sgt who has purchased the master-crafted special issue wargear(I should have been more clear on that in the OP; but it was just before sleep). It is not, in this case a special rule inherent in the ranged profile but to the weapon as a whole(so it is not part of the shooting profile per se).

Let's expand on the question(assuming we decide that the M-C upgrade gets applied to the profile): if you have a captain with a bolt pistol and a p-fist/t-hammer; can he take master-crafted on the CCW aspect(for fighting multiple low-mid T possibly higher I opponents)?

The pistol has the special rule "master crafted" attached to it, as a result of the purchase, correct?

If so, then why are you paying attention to the special rule, and using a profile different to the one given?

The pistol gains the special rule MC; nothing states the special rule MC is given to the set melee profile you are told to use.

DOes that work?

Master-crafted in this case does not seem to get added to the profile; evidence of this is with chaplain Grimaldus: he has in his wargear list a "mastet-crafted plasma pistol". That plasma pistol is not listed as a relic with master-crafted in its profile and the codex does not descibe what that means.

So we know what the master-crafted special rule does(and any pistol with master-crafted in its special rules will clearly not transfer to the CCW, but does that named item of wargear make his Plasma pistol: 12" s7 ap2 pistol, gets hot, master-crafted; or is it: 12" s7 ap2 pistol, gets hot and then the master-crafted rule applies to any use of that item for attacks(whether ranged profile or ccw)?

There is, of course, a third option: there is no such item as a "master-crafted plasma pistol" so it is wargear that does nothing at all and he never gains a bonus attack nor does he have a ranged weapon(note I would never play it this way).

I don't get it; is not "Master Crafted" a special rule applied to the Master Crafter Plasma Pistol? And does not the rules quoted say you ignore the pistol's special rules? As such, it would NOT be a Master Crafted CCW?

I get what you're saying; Master Crafted is never listed in the special rules section. Instead, it's always listed as a prefix to item that's master crafted. However, I believe there are examples of named pieces of wargear that say "treat this as a master-crafted (wargear name)". I think it's safe to say that even if it doesn't appear in the list of special rules, it is taken as a given that it IS a special rule of the weapon.

As such, I feel very confident that you only use the Master Crafted quality of the Plasma Pistol for its ranged attacks, and never for close combat.

Not quite, many of the relics, both melee and ranged, list master-crafted as special rules in the profile. It is just Grimaldus' plasma pistol and any entry that gives the option to "master-craft" one of the model's weapons does not explain how the tag is applied(especially to multi-profile weapons).

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule
- Master Crafted, Special Rules

If it isn't a Special Rule, where do you find permission to apply the above effect to the Weapon as it applies to weapons with this Special Rule?
Besides, it would still not be located on the default Close Combat Weapon profile you are told to use instead....

Then those upgrades(and Grimaldus' pistol) do nothing.

Grimaldus has something called a "master crafted plasma pistol" but there is no profile for such a weapon.

I could almost see the Sallies chapter tactic as adding the master crafted rule to the profile, but in any case of multi-profile weapons which one? Is a sternguard sgt bolter made master-crafted just apply to the boltgun profile or will it add to the special ammo too?

A lot of weapons are simply refereed to as 'Twin-Linked X' as well.
Think the intent is obvious, even if they forgot to explain what putting a Special Rule before the weapon name actually means.

I actually was prepared with the T-L argument; so here is the abridged:
Much the same as "T-L X" we all agree applies the twin linked special rule any time the weapon is used the same should be true of "master-crafted X". It doesn't actually add the special rule to any given profile on the weapon, it is simply a weapon that has that rule. As part of the pistol rule the weapon in question(bolt, plasma, grav, whatever it is) is also a CCW, so a "master crafted plasma pistol" is also a Master crafted CCW"; and a "master-crafted plasma pistol is different from a plasma pistol that also has the master-crafted special rule in its profile(as that one will not lend the rule to the CCW aspect)

I disagree:
The type section of a weapon’s profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question
- Special Rules, Weapon

If it isn't marked in the Type section of the Profile, then the Special Rule does not apply to the Weapon in question....

Again, it is a clear flaw to refer to a Weapon as 'Twin-Linked X' or 'Master-Crafted X' because nothing informs us to add the Special Rule to the Profile when we encounter it being used thus. However, if we are going to argue 'Rule as Intended,' I think you will find more people agreeing that the 'fix' is to simply add the Special Rule to the Weapon Profile under the Type section where Special Rules are normally found. This allows it to meet all the criteria, both the above and the requirements found internal to the Rule itself. What you are suggesting we do is to ignore the internal and external requirements completely, and simply grant the benefit even though the Weapon still lacks permission to use the benefits....

Besides, even if you where some how correct that we simply ignore the requirements and apply the effect any time we encounter a profile with 'Master Crafted' in it's name there is still a flaw in your logic:
If this is done, use the profile given above...
- Pistols as Close Combat Weapons

The above profile also changes the name of the Weapon being used, which will also remove the 'Master-Crafted' portion of said name....

Sallies sternguard vet sgt takes a combi-grav and master-crafts it; which profie(s), out of the 6 available for shooting, get the master-crafted rule added to them?

None of them, because none of them have the Master-Crafted special rule.

He can master-craft the weapon all he wants, but without the profile actually having the special rule, it does nothing.

It's like if I said "Assault Cannon" - it isn't actually an assault weapon. So the name Master-Crafted Combi-Grav isn't actually a master-crafted weapon, either, as none of its profiles have the Master-Crafted special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least if you're going for pure RAW.

Which is what we were already saying about Grimaldus's pistol doing nothing, and only the land raider redeemer actually having any guns(unless you take some multi-meltas or storm bolters)


And yeah the point in this whole exercise is that there is no real pure RAW answer, it is something for us all to think about and then discuss how we got to the agreed upon answer to apply that to future rules discussions.

Notice how you keep trying to move the goal posts?

First, let is address the Original Issue once more:
Pistols as Close Combat Weapons specifically tells us to ignore Special Rules, which Master Craft refers to itself as, on the original Profile
Pistols as Close Combat Weapons informs us to use a completely different Profile, which has a completely different name lacking the Master-Crafted wording

Do you agree that either of the two would prevent the Master-Craft portion of the Pistol from transferring to the Close Combat Weapon?

Now to the secondary and tertiary goals you have put forth:
Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.
- Number of Shots

This informs us that a Profile may consist of multiple lines for a single weapon and what to do if we encounter such an entry. If you open to the Profile section of the Space Marine Codex there are many entries that use this formatting, they have a surprisingly high amount of Weapons with different Ammo Types. Each of these entries is still a single Profile by the way it is formatted, each line even has the same background shading which is used to make it easier to read each individual Profile. By adding a Special Rule to the entire Weapon, there is nothing forbidding it from being added to each line within that Profile in the same way it would be added if the profile consisted of only a single line. Though, again, I would have rather these Rules be far better written as there is a huge flaw with the whole 'adding it to the name' method.

Oh, and take note how Special Issue Ammunition has been formatted within the Profile section of the book and how it is listed under a different bullet point within the War-gear of each Unit able to use it:
It is its own weapon, best to add 'Master Crafted' to it directly!

A model armed with a combi-weapon can choose to fire either the primary boltgun, or the secondary weapon.
- Combi-Weapons

Here we are informed that Combi-Weapons are two individual Weapons, with the rest of the Rule goes on to further cement this concept by addressing them as individual Weapons. The answer for this doesn't even need to involve the whole 'how to deal with the Special Rule being part of a name' problem, or what to do if there are multiple lines within the Profile, as it clearly is two completely separate Profiles as per the Written Rules. Selecting the Boltgun portion of the combi-weapon would only upgrade the Boltgun, not whatever it is combined with, and upgrading the 'combi' part would fail to upgrade the Boltgun it is attached to.

I don't get the complexity of the responses to this. MC grants a reroll of one failed to Hit. It does not specify whether that Hit roll was a Shooting or Melee Attack. Pistols are used in Close Combat albeit at user strength and without AP considerations. Ergo the MC rule should apply to both ranged and melee attacks.

This makes little sense in what could be considered "reality" but there is nothing I have seen in the BRB that denies permission to use a MC pistol in combat for a reroll. Looks like a rules gap and honestly its pretty minor.

If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored.
-Pistols as Close Combat Weapons

Notice how all those goal posts are directly related?

The bolt pistol(plasma pistol in the case with an actual example of the situation existing) is named as the weapon, master crafted is not a part of any special rules for the profile of the bolt pistol, nor is there any such weapon as a "master crafted bolt pistol" that we have a profile for. We simply accept that we apply the master-crafted special rule to the attacks made by the bolt pistol, just like we simply accept we add the twin-linked special rule to attacks made by the ubiquitous "twin linked lascannon" that many of the SM vehicles have(again Twin linked as a special rule is not on the profile for a lascannon, and the named weapon does not exist).

Since master_crafted is not actually a part of the shooting profile of the pistol(which is either the base weapon's profile or simply does not exist) then the instructions to ignore the special rules in the shooting profile for "pistol as a close combat weapon" does not apply(well it still does but again master-crafted is not part of the profile).

The other aspects of the discussion were brought up in response to baseless claims in order to illustrate the point.

Pistol is a special rule that states the pistol counts as a CCW in the assault phase(always), "pistol as a ccw" is a bit of rules in the ccw that states how the pistol rule functions. The pistol in the assault phase does not become a new and different weapon, it is still a bolt pistol, or plasma pistol, or slugga, or whatever; it just also has the ccw profile. A "master-crafted bolt pistol", if we are allowing that tag to indicate usage of the master-crafted special rule when making attacks with the base weapon, used as a ccw via the pistol special rule is still attacking with a "master-crafted bolt pistol" which we are already agreeing applies the master crafted rules to its attacks.

As for Special Issue Ammo: you should ignore the profiles page and go to the rules; they are absolutely extra profiles added to the bolt gun.

Combi-weapons: it is 1 weapon with a primary weapon profile(bolt gun) and a secondary weapon profile(as named in combi-x); if you want to claim it is 2 separate ranged weapons then we can have a field-day in list creation as that makes the following captain legally armed: captain, 2 grav pistols, the burning blade 185 points. You get that by taking a combi-whatever for his bolt pistol, trading the secondary weapon profile for the burning blade and the primary bolt gun and bolt pistol each for a grav pistol. They are not 2 weapons, they are 1 weapon with a primary and secondary profile.

JinxDragon wrote:
If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored.
-Pistols as Close Combat Weapons

Maybe this is a bit more clear

We agreed that the name factor is broken, there is no such thing as 'Master Crafter Plasma Pistols' and it complicates matters for these weapons. Acting as if your interpretation of this 'grey area' is correct is unfounded, there is no Rules to quote to support what to do in these situations other then talking to your opponent. I personally find it to be irrelevant to the original question, as the Profile we are instructed to use instead does not contain the words 'Master Crafted' anywhere on the entirety of the Profile. Therefore, we are still forbidden from using the 'Master Crafted' portion of the old Profile no matter how it is broken down. By not using the Profile given, we are ignoring the Rule telling us to use the Profile given.

Since master_crafted is not actually a part of the shooting profile of the pistol(which is either the base weapon's profile or simply does not exist) then the instructions to ignore the special rules in the shooting profile for "pistol as a close combat weapon" does not apply(well it still does but again master-crafted is not part of the profile).
- Kommissar Kel,

Honestly, why?
We both agree that the 'Special Rule in the name' problem is an error but why would that nullify a Restriction designed to prevent any part of the old profile from being used?

As for Combi-Weapons:
Simply read the Rules for these, they refer to each weapon as individual's more then enough.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I actually was prepared with the T-L argument; so here is the abridged:
Much the same as "T-L X" we all agree applies the twin linked special rule any time the weapon is used the same should be true of "master-crafted X". It doesn't actually add the special rule to any given profile on the weapon, it is simply a weapon that has that rule. As part of the pistol rule the weapon in question(bolt, plasma, grav, whatever it is) is also a CCW, so a "master crafted plasma pistol" is also a Master crafted CCW"; and a "master-crafted plasma pistol is different from a plasma pistol that also has the master-crafted special rule in its profile(as that one will not lend the rule to the CCW aspect)

Do you have an example of this? I know they've done this in the past but I'm pretty sure what is listed in weapon profiles is what we get.

Better question who really cares. to use the master crafted rule would mean you have to attack with it as your CC weapon. So if you have a power sword and a plasma pistol and want to use the re roll. you don't get to use the power swords rules. seems kind of dumb to me. but I would allow it.

 Aijec wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I actually was prepared with the T-L argument; so here is the abridged:
Much the same as "T-L X" we all agree applies the twin linked special rule any time the weapon is used the same should be true of "master-crafted X". It doesn't actually add the special rule to any given profile on the weapon, it is simply a weapon that has that rule. As part of the pistol rule the weapon in question(bolt, plasma, grav, whatever it is) is also a CCW, so a "master crafted plasma pistol" is also a Master crafted CCW"; and a "master-crafted plasma pistol is different from a plasma pistol that also has the master-crafted special rule in its profile(as that one will not lend the rule to the CCW aspect)

Do you have an example of this? I know they've done this in the past but I'm pretty sure what is listed in weapon profiles is what we get.

A T-L-x with multiple profiles?

Yes: tau codex, interceptor drones on the sunshark bomber. They come with T-L ion rifles that have standard and overcharged profiles. Neither profile lists Twin linked in the special rules and that gets applied by us when attacking with the weapon no matter which of the 2 profiles is being used(and neither profile is called ion rifle)

Steel Angel: I did give an example for when you would want to use the pistol as a CCW in an early post: if you take a sallies captain with a thunder hammer and pistol and are fighting multiple t4 or lower 1-wound models, especially if they are i5 or less. The pistol grants a bonus attack(specialist weapon only denies 2-weapon bonus when the specialist weapon is used) and lets you attack simultaneously or first.