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I have bundled many questions into one thread.


A) What was the relationship between the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods?


B) What was the relationship between the Eldar Gods and the first 3 Chaos Gods, before Slaanesh was born. Also, Khaine's relation to Khorne?


C) What is the relationship between Warp entities and Chaos daemons?
e.g. Vampires, Psychneueii, Astral Spectres, Astral Hounds, and Enslavers


D) What is the relationship between the Tyranid Hive Mind and the Chaos Gods?

E) And one last one, were Vaul's 100 swords forged before Khaine started torturing Isha? There is contradictory fluff on this one.

A.) At least some of the Eldar Gods were almost certainly former Old Ones (the Old Ones virtually lived in the Warp)
B.) the Eldar Gods were "Order", and the others "Chaos". In other words, they fought constantly. Then the Eldar stopped worshiping their own Gods, and the Craftworld Eldar (basically the Rogue Traders of the Eldar Empire) were the only ones feeding the Eldar Gods energy. If the majority of the Eldar populace hadn't stopped worshiping their Pantheon, than Slaanesh likely would not have been able to consume the Eldar Pantheon, and the Eldar Gods would still have a major impact on the galaxy.
C.) Daemons are basically shards of Chaos Gods. When a Chaos Gods wants a Daemon, it tears off a little piece of itself and gives it sentience. However, Warp Entities like the Enslavers were completely independent of Warp Gods, and likely come from different galaxies (as most of them would be consumed by Daemons when coming to this galaxy)
D.)Tyranid Hive Mind could be considered a Warp God from a different galaxy with way more power than a single Chaos God.

I'd argue against the Old ones and the Eldar Gods being the same thing, instead my head cannon supports the Eldar Pantheon being the racial echoes of the War of the Heavens reflected in the Warp via Eldar Mythic Cycles.

During the War in the Heavens, the Warp was calm, like a pool. When the Eldar, a highly Psykic Race, where brought into being , created into a galaxy wide war, of course these Wars formed the bases of their creation Myth. Asuryan, Isha, Khaine? They must be what the Eldar conceived of the Old Ones of the time, and their Worship of these individuals as concepts formed actual entities in the Warp. As evidance for this, look at Cegorarch in the same way as the Deceiver. Both helped and hindered both sides of the war, both are credited with the insanity of the Outsider, doesn't it make sense these are infact the Deceivers deeps through the eyes of the Eldar?

Just my head cannon.

 dusara217 wrote:
A.) At least some of the Eldar Gods were almost certainly former Old Ones (the Old Ones virtually lived in the Warp)
B.) the Eldar Gods were "Order", and the others "Chaos". In other words, they fought constantly. Then the Eldar stopped worshiping their own Gods, and the Craftworld Eldar (basically the Rogue Traders of the Eldar Empire) were the only ones feeding the Eldar Gods energy. If the majority of the Eldar populace hadn't stopped worshiping their Pantheon, than Slaanesh likely would not have been able to consume the Eldar Pantheon, and the Eldar Gods would still have a major impact on the galaxy.
C.) Daemons are basically shards of Chaos Gods. When a Chaos Gods wants a Daemon, it tears off a little piece of itself and gives it sentience. However, Warp Entities like the Enslavers were completely independent of Warp Gods, and likely come from different galaxies (as most of them would be consumed by Daemons when coming to this galaxy)
D.)Tyranid Hive Mind could be considered a Warp God from a different galaxy with way more power than a single Chaos God.

A) Some say the Old Ones were Slann-like, big fat toads.

B) That makes sense. But what about Khaine and Khorne?

D) The Chaos Gods have finally found their match.

The Chaos Gods already have a match. His name is the God Emperor of Mankind.

Khaine and Khorne are not interrelated AFAIK. Just a similarity in name.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Chaos Gods already have a match. His name is the God Emperor of Mankind.

Khaine and Khorne are not interrelated AFAIK. Just a similarity in name.

But the followers of Chaos dismiss the Emperor as nonsense.

Similar thematically too. Both are rage gods.

Hmmm, I am not sure if this still exists or if it was retconned, or simply something I heard from someone but if I recall correctly; There was a story about how Khaine and Khorne actually used to be rivals. Both hated each other, but still held deep respect for one another. In this telling, it was actually Khorne who shattered Khaine instead of Slaanesh. Khorne saw that Khaine was about to be consumed, and out of respect shattered his body and sent him to the mortal realms to protect him from Slaanesh. This is one of the reasons Khorne despises Slaanesh.

I know in our game group we have considered the possibility of Khaine and Khorne to be the manifestations of the same emotions. Khaine for Eldar, Khorne for Humanity.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Chaos Gods already have a match. His name is the God Emperor of Mankind.

Khaine and Khorne are not interrelated AFAIK. Just a similarity in name.

But the followers of Chaos dismiss the Emperor as nonsense.

As did the Legions Astartes before the Heresy.

Just because Chaos believe so, doesn't make it. There are plenty of pieces of evidence supporting the idea that the Emperor is a god in his own right.

I always thought the Eldar Gods were Chaos demons that just thought and acted differently.

Same as the Emperor. Despite all the different bits of theories out there, I maintain the Emperor is a Chaos God with a different way of thinking than the other Chaos Gods.

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Eldar Gods were Chaos demons that just thought and acted differently.

Same as the Emperor. Despite all the established, sourced fluff out there, I maintain the Emperor is a Chaos God with a different way of thinking than the other Chaos Gods.

Fixed that fo ya

 dusara217 wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Eldar Gods were Chaos demons that just thought and acted differently.

Same as the Emperor. Despite all the established, sourced fluff out there, I maintain the Emperor is a Chaos God with a different way of thinking than the other Chaos Gods.

Fixed that fo ya

Connecting the emperor to the old 5th Chaos god, Malal, wouldn't be such a stretch. Malal worked relentlessly to destroy the four other Chaos gods. Of course, I believe Malal only ever existed in the Fantasy Universe, although, that was also back when there was direct bleed-over from the 40k universe into Fantasy.

 dusara217 wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Eldar Gods were Chaos demons that just thought and acted differently.

Same as the Emperor. Despite all the established, sourced fluff out there, I maintain the Emperor is a Chaos God with a different way of thinking than the other Chaos Gods.

Fixed that fo ya

whatever established, sourced, fluff there is, it can all be easily painted to show the Emperor is a Chaos being. If you subscribe to the mass shaman suicide bit then it's well established that mass deaths and significant release of psyhic power can birth new chaos beings, or allow existing ones to manifest outside the warp. The shamans may have thought there were going to re-incarnate, but the reality is that it was a well intentioned mass sacrifice to the warp that happened to give birth to a new chaos being that shared the intentions of the shamans.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
A) What was the relationship between the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods?

I believe Liber Chaotica mentions that the Eldar Gods were originally psychic weapons that the Eldar created and then began to worship as Gods. The Old Ones lamented this.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
B) What was the relationship between the Eldar Gods and the first 3 Chaos Gods, before Slaanesh was born. Also, Khaine's relation to Khorne?

In Howl of the Banshee Khorne is referred to as Khaine's father. I imagine the other Gods had some connections, Nurgle obviously wanted to be involved with Isha.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
C) What is the relationship between Warp entities and Chaos daemons?
e.g. Vampires, Psychneueii, Astral Spectres, Astral Hounds, and Enslavers

I imagine that they just try and to stay out of the Daemons way.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
D) What is the relationship between the Tyranid Hive Mind and the Chaos Gods?

The Gods consider it a toy or a tool.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
E) And one last one, were Vaul's 100 swords forged before Khaine started torturing Isha? There is contradictory fluff on this one.

After. Isha and Kurnos were given to Khaine by Asuryan after breaking Asuryan's edict. Vaul then struck a deal with Khaine to release them in return for forging 100 swords.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
D.)Tyranid Hive Mind could be considered a Warp God from a different galaxy with way more power than a single Chaos God.

Doubtful. The Chaos Gods are said to be the most powerful beings in the Warp.

This is what is silly about 40k lore. Is it gets retconned so much and there is no official cannon.

@Animus - Khorne is Khaine's father? Yet we have sources (I believe the most reliable of which is the Codex: Chaos Space Marines books) that tell us that Khorne wasn't created until the Middle ages, which would be rather surprising given the supposed time line for the Eldar.

As for the Chaos Gods being the most powerful beings in the Warp - Aren't Gork and Mork both supposed to be far stronger than the chaos gods? I know this changes depending on how far back in the lore we go, to the point where in the early days the Emperor on his thrown would yell at them to stop their shenanigans.

 Amanax wrote:
@Animus - Khorne is Khaine's father? Yet we have sources (I believe the most reliable of which is the Codex: Chaos Space Marines books) that tell us that Khorne wasn't created until the Middle ages, which would be rather surprising given the supposed time line for the Eldar.

You must remember that the Gods exist outside of time, at least as mortals perceive it.

 Amanax wrote:
As for the Chaos Gods being the most powerful beings in the Warp - Aren't Gork and Mork both supposed to be far stronger than the chaos gods?

Nope. They're described as being divine power houses who are never truly defeated, but they've never been said to be stronger than the Chaos Gods, who have directly been said to be the most powerful and dangerous entities in the Warp.

 disdamn wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I always thought the Eldar Gods were Chaos demons that just thought and acted differently.

Same as the Emperor. Despite all the established, sourced fluff out there, I maintain the Emperor is a Chaos God with a different way of thinking than the other Chaos Gods.

Fixed that fo ya

whatever established, sourced, fluff there is, it can all be easily painted to show the Emperor is a Chaos being. If you subscribe to the mass shaman suicide bit then it's well established that mass deaths and significant release of psyhic power can birth new chaos beings, or allow existing ones to manifest outside the warp. The shamans may have thought there were going to re-incarnate, but the reality is that it was a well intentioned mass sacrifice to the warp that happened to give birth to a new chaos being that shared the intentions of the shamans.

The Emperor is most definitely a Warp God, quite possibly with elements of Chaos in him, as well. However, he is known to use "Pure" Warp energy when he uses his powers (the Lost and the Damned), which is a perfect explanation for why everything "Emperor" (talismans ,prayers, etc.) seem to repel Daemons with a vengeance, and, as previously stated, his power does not come from Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amanax wrote:
As for the Chaos Gods being the most powerful beings in the Warp - Aren't Gork and Mork both supposed to be far stronger than the chaos gods? I know this changes depending on how far back in the lore we go, to the point where in the early days the Emperor on his thrown would yell at them to stop their shenanigans.

Gork and Mork don't create Daemons, all of the other Warp Gods do. Daemons are splinters of power from said Gods, and, therefore, this lack of creation allows Gork and Mork to retain all of their power in one place, and, in so doing, remain significantly more powerful than the Chaos Gods' central beings are.
tl;dr: Gork and Mork have less power, but it's all in one place. Everybody else has (at least) the same amount of - if not more - power, but it's spread out.

Would probably be better to refer to the Emperor as a Warp God rather than a Chaos God. Even the servants of Chaos refer to him as "The Anathema", which implies that he is the counter-agent, the remedy, etc.

So, yes, definitely a Warp God, probably of Law, to tie it back in to the cosmology of WHFRP.