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Say I were to have an I.C. (runepriest) with Jump Packs, in with a normal infantry unit (Terminators), and decide to charge... would I get to reroll charge distance for unit if I use the JumpPacks during assault phase?

Pls n Ty!

I don't think so, the rule says "if a jump model uses..." this implies the ability to reroll is given out on a model by model basis. He can reroll, but the rest don't have permission and the roll isn't just for him it is for them too. I would go with no you don't get it.

Fleet is in effect only if ALL models have it.

"If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model."

I really read that this is about differences in how many dice aka the total number of potential inches - rerolls doesn't make the jumppack any faster tho...

"If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault, it can reroll its charge distance"

It states that this model can reroll, and the rules in charging do not state it as excluded from being in effect, and the jump rule doesn't say "if all models in unit have jump"... therefore it works? Thank you

The way I see it is that guy 1 has permission to reroll, guy 2 doesn't. In order for guy 1 to reroll, guy 2 also has to reroll. Guy 2 can't reroll so noone can.

The rules for Jump start off by saying (emphasis mine):

"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase..."

It is clear that only Jump units may do this. The later wording of, "If a Jump model..." is referring to models in Jump units who have the unit-wide permission to use their jump packs in the Assault phase. Mixed units are not Jump units, and so there is no permission to attempt to re-roll the charge distance.

Mmmhmmm.... missed that initial paragraph.

Makes sense, "jump units can use their jump packs once each turn".

As an IC separate of any unit, it's a one man unit.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The rules for Jump start off by saying (emphasis mine):

"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase..."

It is clear that only Jump units may do this. The later wording of, "If a Jump model..." is referring to models in Jump units who have the unit-wide permission to use their jump packs in the Assault phase. Mixed units are not Jump units, and so there is no permission to attempt to re-roll the charge distance.

This is important, but there is another point that is more pertinent, bolded and underlined:
"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

In order for a Jump model to take advantage of any of its special movement rules, all other models in the unit must be able to replicate the movement in some form or another (the old Blood Angels Psychic Power Wings of Sanguinius, for example). So, Dante in Terminators can't Jump. Necron Praetorians with a Destroyer Lord cannot Jump. And so on.

Charistoph wrote:

In order for a Jump model to take advantage of any of its special movement rules, all other models in the unit must be able to replicate the movement in some form or another (the old Blood Angels Psychic Power Wings of Sanguinius, for example). So, Dante in Terminators can't Jump. Necron Praetorians with a Destroyer Lord cannot Jump. And so on.

It sounds like you're saying a jump unit cannot move 12" if there is a character attached that is on foot. That contradicts the rule on page 18 though that "each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency."

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
In order for a Jump model to take advantage of any of its special movement rules, all other models in the unit must be able to replicate the movement in some form or another (the old Blood Angels Psychic Power Wings of Sanguinius, for example). So, Dante in Terminators can't Jump. Necron Praetorians with a Destroyer Lord cannot Jump. And so on.

It sounds like you're saying a jump unit cannot move 12" if there is a character attached that is on foot. That contradicts the rule on page 18 though that "each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency."

That is correct. The Jump models can only revert to basic Movement when any model without a Jump analogue are with them, and cannot Jump. I quoted the Advanced Rule on this, so unless I quoted it wrong, those are the rules.

I've always taken that as making sure they all use jump packs in the movement phase or in the assault phase in unison to prevent mixing and matching. Not that the whole unit gets slowed down by the character. I guess this may be a situation more specific to jump units though since I don't see anything similar for cavalry or bikes where you can have some move 12" and an attached character on foot just move 6".

You can move 12" but must maintain coherency by end of movement phase. It reads, "a jump unit must move the same" whereas an IC joining a non-jump unit isn't therefore part of a Jump unit. Makes a full unit use same method, but a mixed unit may do all they like as long as they aren't turbo-boosting/running and also shooting too, for example. Maintaining coherency is key. But - jump -units- may choose to use assault moves, .... hmmm lol

lessthanjeff wrote:I've always taken that as making sure they all use jump packs in the movement phase or in the assault phase in unison to prevent mixing and matching. Not that the whole unit gets slowed down by the character. I guess this may be a situation more specific to jump units though since I don't see anything similar for cavalry or bikes where you can have some move 12" and an attached character on foot just move 6".

MekLeN wrote:You can move 12" but must maintain coherency by end of movement phase. It reads, "a jump unit must move the same" whereas an IC joining a non-jump unit isn't therefore part of a Jump unit. Makes a full unit use same method, but a mixed unit may do all they like as long as they aren't turbo-boosting/running and also shooting too, for example. Maintaining coherency is key. But - jump -units- may choose to use assault moves, .... hmmm lol

Incorrect. Read the entire paragraph for context:
"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

It details two forms of movement, one using a Jump Pack, and then the "normal mode" of their unit type. Nothing about distance is mentioned. A Jump Cavalry model can still move 12" if they have a base Infantry model in the unit, but they would not be able to Jump to Ignore Terrain, it would just be using whatever Cavalry normally has access to.

Remember, the ENTIRE unit must use the same form of movement, period. This is not a question of distances, but more of style. Do not confuse the two. Nor is this a potentially confusing statement like Jet Pack units having Relentless or being able to Thrust. If only Jump models were to be considered for this movement, it would detail that all Jump models have to use the same movement method, and not the entire unit.

Of course, if you and your group don't like it, it is a sandbox game and you can play how you like.

Charistoph wrote:

Incorrect. Read the entire paragraph for context:
"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

It details two forms of movement, one using a Jump Pack, and then the "normal mode" of their unit type. Nothing about distance is mentioned. A Jump Cavalry model can still move 12" if they have a base Infantry model in the unit, but they would not be able to Jump to Ignore Terrain, it would just be using whatever Cavalry normally has access to.

Remember, the ENTIRE unit must use the same form of movement, period. This is not a question of distances, but more of style. Do not confuse the two. Nor is this a potentially confusing statement like Jet Pack units having Relentless or being able to Thrust. If only Jump models were to be considered for this movement, it would detail that all Jump models have to use the same movement method, and not the entire unit.

Of course, if you and your group don't like it, it is a sandbox game and you can play how you like.

I'm finding your attempt at clarification more confusing. Did you mean to say jump cavalry in your example?

You're saying not to confuse the movement distance with the style of movement, but your stance is saying the jump unit's movement distance is cut down to 6".

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm finding your attempt at clarification more confusing. Did you mean to say jump cavalry in your example?

You're saying not to confuse the movement distance with the style of movement, but your stance is saying the jump unit's movement distance is cut down to 6".

He's pointing out that a Jump Cavalry unit with an Infantry model joined would be required to not move as Jump, per the Jump rules which state that the whole unit must use the same type (i.e. Jump or regular) of movement. In the case of his example the Cavalry models would be able to move as Cavalry (12") while the Infantry moves as Infantry (6").

In the case of Jump Infantry with a joined Infantry model, they must again all elect not to use their Jump movement (because otherwise the unit would not be all using the same form of movement) and therefore the whole unit moves as Infantry.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm finding your attempt at clarification more confusing. Did you mean to say jump cavalry in your example?

Indeed I did mean to use Jump Cavalry. The reason being that Cavalry is not limited to the 6", and to demonstrate what defines the Movement Form discussed in the Jump Unit's forms. If relying on "normal" movement, a Jump Cavalry unit would move 12" and not be slowed by Difficult Terrain, but still face Dangerous Terrain. If using "Jump" movement, it would still move 12", but ignore Dangerous Terrain.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
You're saying not to confuse the movement distance with the style of movement, but your stance is saying the jump unit's movement distance is cut down to 6".

A Jump INFANTRY model's movement would be affected so drastically, because their non-Jump movement is limited to 6".

Keep in mind that most Jump models are Infantry, and every real example I have given has been of another type of Infantry with Jump Infantry. Also, the OP's example was a Rune Priest in a Terminator Squad: Jump Infantry in a basic Infantry Squad.

So, yes, the STYLE is what is being limited, and that style is what changes an Infantry model from 6" to 12".

So, a bike IC and a Jump IC join together forming a unit.

They both move 6", and through terrain, the bike rolling dangerous terrain tests and the jump rolling 2d6" (pick highest) slowed movement?

Huh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They essentially use the "greatest common factor" - and forgoe special rules not mutual between them all... falling back to basics, essentially.

And in the above example of difficult terrain, the whole unit is slowed to 2d6" (Pick highest) as they must move as their slowest type allows.

Ouch lol! But if that's how it is, so be it.

Sad tho, that a jump dude can't hop in ruins to a 6" level (potentially third story with usual terrain pieces spacing them 3" at each level, the rules stating 6" vertical coherency), instead requiring the jump to just crawl his way up the stairs... =P

I appreciate the working through this. Stuff that's gotta get figured out lol!


[Btw - dakkadakka should really make their search engine be more intelligent, o easy to get zero results unless I type in specific phrases... I bet there's been a discussion on this before but I can't find it =\ ]

MekLeN wrote:
So, a bike IC and a Jump IC join together forming a unit.

They both move 6", and through terrain, the bike rolling dangerous terrain tests and the jump rolling 2d6" (pick highest) slowed movement?

Huh...

Actually, the Bike IC could move up to 12", provided they were staying in Coherency, and not going through Terrain. Of course, that doesn't consider the fact that you may be wanting to split the unit. The Bike is not limited to a different movement form like Jump models are, so are freed to move as they can.

Charistoph wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
So, a bike IC and a Jump IC join together forming a unit.

They both move 6", and through terrain, the bike rolling dangerous terrain tests and the jump rolling 2d6" (pick highest) slowed movement?

Huh...

Actually, the Bike IC could move up to 12", provided they were staying in Coherency, and not going through Terrain. Of course, that doesn't consider the fact that you may be wanting to split the unit. The Bike is not limited to a different movement form like Jump models are, so are freed to move as they can.

So, both can move 12" - bike not being stopped by terrain, and jumppack being able to fly over terrain? If it's moving more than 6" then it's using jumppacks therefore ignoring terrain...

MekLeN wrote:
So, both can move 12" - bike not being stopped by terrain, and jumppack being able to fly over terrain? If it's moving more than 6" then it's using jumppacks therefore ignoring terrain...

No, you misunderstand. The Jump model would not be able to Jump. It is the Jump that allows them to ignore Terrain, but the lack of Jump on the Bike would prevent any model the unit from Jumping. Remember that either the entire unit Jump, or the entire unit uses "normal" movement.

So, the bike may move 12" unimpeded but to be forced to remain within coherency of the stunted 6" Jump model who must walk on ground as normal, at 6". And assaulting through cover is 2d6" (minus 2") w/o fancy jump pack rerolls.

Kk.

Essentially, jump units aren't jump at all once in a mixed unit situation. Awesome. Many thank you!

Seeing I am tired and have to get on a flight tomorrow:
Unit Types are something found on Models, not Units as a whole, even though Game Workshop constantly makes 'Unit level' Rules dependent on Unit Types.
While this makes it impossible to determine how Units consisting of different Unit Types are meant to function, it is a well known problem that Game Workshop has simply refused to clarify over multiple editions now.

Then there is the 'duel terminology' problem, which often forms when Game Workshop refers to something by 'short hand' instead of typing out the entire terminology. This makes it difficult to be certain if the word 'unit' in this section of the book is referring to 'a group of Models formed into a single Unit' or may be referring to any 'Model with the Jump Unit Type.' At least in this situation they have gone out of their way to place a Rule which calls for the entire Unit, clearly all Models formed into the Unit as a whole, to use the same method of Movement in order to prevent the Jet-Pack or Jump pack from being used.

The most obvious example of a problem forming with Jet-Pack Units referring to a 'group of Models' comes from the Special Rules section:
Would you be willing to allow me to fit twice as many Jet-Pack Models into a Building simply by attaching an 'pure' Infantry Independent Character to the Unit?

JinxDragon wrote:
Seeing I am tired and have to get on a flight tomorrow:
Unit Types are something found on Models, not Units as a whole, even though Game Workshop constantly makes 'Unit level' Rules dependent on Unit Types.
While this makes it impossible to determine how Units consisting of different Unit Types are meant to function, it is a well known problem that Game Workshop has simply refused to clarify over multiple editions now.

Then there is the 'duel terminology' problem, which often forms when Game Workshop refers to something by 'short hand' instead of typing out the entire terminology. This makes it difficult to be certain if the word 'unit' in this section of the book is referring to 'a group of Models formed into a single Unit' or may be referring to any 'Model with the Jump Unit Type.' At least in this situation they have gone out of their way to place a Rule which calls for the entire Unit, clearly all Models formed into the Unit as a whole, to use the same method of Movement in order to prevent the Jet-Pack or Jump pack from being used.

The most obvious example of a problem forming with Jet-Pack Units referring to a 'group of Models' comes from the Special Rules section:
Would you be willing to allow me to fit twice as many Jet-Pack Models into a Building simply by attaching an 'pure' Infantry Independent Character to the Unit?

Yeah, the use of "unit" in the Jet Pack unit type and much of Jump unit type is pretty wonky.

However, the language limiting Jump movement is rather clear. It never states all Jump models, nor all Jump units, it states that the entire unit must use the same movement type. In this case, it is quite clear (if rather annoying).

Charistoph wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Seeing I am tired and have to get on a flight tomorrow:
Unit Types are something found on Models, not Units as a whole, even though Game Workshop constantly makes 'Unit level' Rules dependent on Unit Types.
While this makes it impossible to determine how Units consisting of different Unit Types are meant to function, it is a well known problem that Game Workshop has simply refused to clarify over multiple editions now.

Then there is the 'duel terminology' problem, which often forms when Game Workshop refers to something by 'short hand' instead of typing out the entire terminology. This makes it difficult to be certain if the word 'unit' in this section of the book is referring to 'a group of Models formed into a single Unit' or may be referring to any 'Model with the Jump Unit Type.' At least in this situation they have gone out of their way to place a Rule which calls for the entire Unit, clearly all Models formed into the Unit as a whole, to use the same method of Movement in order to prevent the Jet-Pack or Jump pack from being used.

The most obvious example of a problem forming with Jet-Pack Units referring to a 'group of Models' comes from the Special Rules section:
Would you be willing to allow me to fit twice as many Jet-Pack Models into a Building simply by attaching an 'pure' Infantry Independent Character to the Unit?

Yeah, the use of "unit" in the Jet Pack unit type and much of Jump unit type is pretty wonky.

However, the language limiting Jump movement is rather clear. It never states all Jump models, nor all Jump units, it states that the entire unit must use the same movement type. In this case, it is quite clear (if rather annoying).

So if a bike and a jump moved together, the bike moves on ground at 12", the jumppack at 6", which would keep the bikes move limited to 9" to maintain coherency (in the 2 IC example).

MekLeN wrote:So if a bike and a jump moved together, the bike moves on ground at 12", the jumppack at 6", which would keep the bikes move limited to 9" to maintain coherency (in the 2 IC example).

If the Jumper was also Infantry, Artillery, Monstrous Creature, or any other Unit Type which only moved the normal 6", yes.

If the Jumper was a Jump Bike, Jump Beast, or Jump Cavalry, than the Jumper could move 12" due to their Bike/Beast/Cavalry type. Not that I can think of any actual Jump Bikes, Jump Beasts, or Jump Cavalry off hand, though.

Indeed,
Infantry and Bikes use the same method of movement, "default," as the Unit Type only changes the numbers of inches capable of being moved.

Charistoph,
Daemons have a few Units that begin as non-infantry Jump or Jet Units, but I don't know them well to say what they are and if they meet the "12 inch default movement" while also being Jump.
Likely it is some combination of war-gear from the Codex's that will cause this to occur, but again I can't research to find which combination it would be.

Just came to agree with Charistoph, and as everyone said.

BUT, (and correct me if I'm wrong) not the situation of the OP

1) you can use the Jump packs and move 12" and then move the IC in bike 12" so they end in unit coherency and then they become one unit

2) The same situation as above but being a unit at the start of the movement phase... If I decide to move the Bike IC out of unit coherency by moving 12" the Jump unit can't use Jump Packs because at the end of the movement phase is that the IC change the status from being in the unit to not being in the unit?

This rule seems relevant.

col_impact wrote:
This rule seems relevant.

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump
Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with
any unit they are in.

Moving at different unit speeds does not necessarily break unit coherency, so it's only very vaguely relevant.

In the case of an IC, you simply detach the IC from the host unit and move the IC separately from the host unit. Then you move the host unit and simply ensure that the host unit has 1 model in coherency. The IC attaches to the host unit at the end of the movement phase. That way the jump unit loses none of its abilities.

col_impact wrote:
In the case of an IC, you simply detach the IC from the host unit and move the IC separately from the host unit. Then you move the host unit and simply ensure that the host unit has 1 model in coherency. The IC attaches to the host unit at the end of the movement phase. That way the jump unit loses none of its abilities.

Wouldn't work. The IC can only be considered out of the unit when in coherency with another unit at the same time, or out of coherency at the end of the Movement Phase.