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Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the case of an IC, you simply detach the IC from the host unit and move the IC separately from the host unit. Then you move the host unit and simply ensure that the host unit has 1 model in coherency. The IC attaches to the host unit at the end of the movement phase. That way the jump unit loses none of its abilities.

Wouldn't work. The IC can only be considered out of the unit when in coherency with another unit at the same time, or out of coherency at the end of the Movement Phase.

It does work . . .



The check for attaching an IC happens "at the end of the movement phase"

So the IC leaves the unit during the movement phase and attaches at the end of the movement phase.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the case of an IC, you simply detach the IC from the host unit and move the IC separately from the host unit. Then you move the host unit and simply ensure that the host unit has 1 model in coherency. The IC attaches to the host unit at the end of the movement phase. That way the jump unit loses none of its abilities.

Wouldn't work. The IC can only be considered out of the unit when in coherency with another unit at the same time, or out of coherency at the end of the Movement Phase.

It does work . . .

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of
unit coherency with it.

The check for attaching an IC happens "at the end of the movement phase"

So the IC leaves the unit during the movement phase and attaches at the end of the movement phase.

Unit coherency is checked once a unit is finished moving, so you're not checking whether the Independent Character has moved out of unit coherency until after the unit has finished moving.

In your example, once the unit has finished moving they're still in unit coherency with the Independent Character, so the IC has not left the unit.

Pay attention to the rules and when they happen.

My scenario completely adheres to the rules.

The IC leaves the host jump unit during the movement phase and accomplishes its movement as a separate unit.

At this point in time which is still during the movement phase we have an IC unit and a jump unit.

The jump unit which no longer has an IC attached is now 100% jump and can complete its jump move to its full capacity.

The jump unit leaves a model 2" away from the IC unit.

At the end of the movement phase, the player must either attach the IC to the jump unit or move the IC so that it is out of coherency.

The player chooses to attach the IC.

At the end of the movement phase, the player must either attach the IC to the jump unit or move the IC so that it is out of coherency.

This line is incorrect as you cannot move the IC twice. If he ends in coherency he is forced to join. Otherwise its gtg.

Actually yeah, I'm not sure why I said that - the IC checks itself against unit coherency and finds it's not in unit coherency with the unit and thus has left.

I think what actually holds it back is that to join a unit, the Independent Character has to move so he is within 2" of the unit. He cannot move out of 2" of the unit, leaving the unit, and then have the unit then move within 2" of him to join him.

Independent Characters join units by moving themselves into coherency, not by simply having a unit within 2" whether by the IC's movement or the unit's.

Fragile wrote:

At the end of the movement phase, the player must either attach the IC to the jump unit or move the IC so that it is out of coherency.

This line is incorrect as you cannot move the IC twice. If he ends in coherency he is forced to join. Otherwise its gtg.

Check the rules. It's all there. You are technically not moving twice but are adjusting your prior move "at the end of the Movement phase"




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Actually yeah, I'm not sure why I said that - the IC checks itself against unit coherency and finds it's not in unit coherency with the unit and thus has left.

I think what actually holds it back is that to join a unit, the Independent Character has to move so he is within 2" of the unit. He cannot move out of 2" of the unit, leaving the unit, and then have the unit then move within 2" of him to join him.

Independent Characters join units by moving themselves into coherency, not by simply having a unit within 2" whether by the IC's movement or the unit's.

Please just refresh yourself with the rules. The key points are:

1) The IC has permission to leave the unit "during the movement phase"
2) The check for whether an IC attaches to a unit happens "at the end of the movement phase."

The rules simply allow for a game state where the IC leaves the jump unit and moves as a separate unit. And then the jump unit with no IC attached can do it's movement as a non-mixed unit. And the two units re-attach at the end of the movement phase.

I have backed up how this works with the rules. Please back up any counter argument with rules.

col_impact wrote:
Check the rules. It's all there. You are technically not moving twice but are adjusting your prior move "at the end of the Movement phase"

Spoiler:

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase.

No, you're not allowed to move it twice, you need to work out the position while doing it. That rule you Spoilered does not allow a remove or further movement, it is for the player to check the IC's movement before finalizing it. It is no different than the restriction on remaining 1" away from enemy models.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Check the rules. It's all there. You are technically not moving twice but are adjusting your prior move "at the end of the Movement phase"

Spoiler:

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase.

No, you're not allowed to move it twice, you need to work out the position while doing it. That rule you Spoilered does not allow a remove or further movement, it is for the player to check the IC's movement before finalizing it. It is no different than the restriction on remaining 1" away from enemy models.

Read the rule. It does not mention moving it twice. It says that at the end of the movement phase, the IC "must (where possible) remain more than 2" away." The rule allows for retroactive adjustment at the end of the movement phase of the moves that occurred during the movement phase (as long as they are possible).

At any rate, this is a side discussion since we will be choosing to always attach the IC.

So my scenario works wholly according to the rules. The IC leaves the jump unit during the movement phase thereby freeing the jump unit to move as a jump unit and the IC and jump unit re-attach at the end of the movement phase.

Wow. I can see this going many ways, but I do think that there's a real point behind:

-) an I.C. makes its move, this is this units turn to move.
• if the choice to remain part of that unit is what's opted, then the unit must finish its move (all remaining models) or else forfeit its movement upon moving any other models of other units.
• if the I.C. chooses to NOT remain in the unit, then it must finish its move outside of coherency (2") by the end of its move, and the unit it's leaving must finish its move also outside of coherency (if at all possible).

A different unit may move within coherency of the I.C. tho, forming a unit with the I.C. by the end of the movement phase.

MekLeN wrote:
Wow. I can see this going many ways, but I do think that there's a real point behind:

-) an I.C. makes its move, this is this units turn to move.
• if the choice to remain part of that unit is what's opted, then the unit must finish its move (all remaining models) or else forfeit its movement upon moving any other models of other units.
• if the I.C. chooses to NOT remain in the unit, then it must finish its move outside of coherency (2" by the end of its move, and the unit it's leaving must finish its move also outside of coherency (if at all possible).

A different unit may move within coherency of the I.C. tho, forming a unit with the I.C. by the end of the movement phase.

You are not reading the rules.

The IC has permission to leave a unit during the movement phase.

The check to see if an IC is going to attach to a unit occurs at the end of the movement phase not during the movement phase.

You move the IC as a separate unit during the movement phase. It leaves the unit.

The jump unit (which now has no IC) does its jump movement and leaves a model that is <2" away from the IC.

At the end of the movement phase the IC attaches to the jump unit.

So, to be certain, moving the IC (part of unit at start of movement phase) -from- unit, isn't 'triggering' that units movement in that phase?

He's not no-longer part of the unit (and one of his own) until after he finishes his movement.

This means that squad must finish its move right?

Just clarifying

MekLeN wrote:
So, to be certain, moving the IC (part of unit at start of movement phase) -from- unit, isn't 'triggering' that units movement in that phase?

No it does not trigger the unit the IC has left to move. There's nothing in the rules that say that.

This is the rules you follow.

Movement rules in the "Movement Phase" section of the Rulebook do not apply then to this move?

"Once you start moving a unit, you must complete its movement before moving on to another"

The IC is a unit all in itself. So you satisfy that rule.

It is a unit of itself once it's no longer in the other unit. So, at the moment it is out of coherency it *then* becomes its own unit.

But at the beginning of the turn, it is in the unit of other models... so triggering movement within that unit, is movement of that unit, right?

MekLeN wrote:
Movement rules in the "Movement Phase" section of the Rulebook do not apply then to this move?

"Once you start moving a unit, you must complete its movement before moving on to another"

So, when you chose to move the IC it is still part of the unit, so you have to choose to move that unit, and then have to move all the models in that unit and at the end of that unit's movement you check if the IC is still part of that unit...

That's my understandjng... that at the beginning of the turn he is of their unit... moving a different squad into him after this units move, I see nothing stopping that...

What does any of this have to do with the charge reroll as per the topic?

That was finished.
Consensus for Can't re-roll

Yea, greatest common factor: if not all jump, no jump useage.

The next talk was of moving in and out of units to gain jump as solo ic and then rejoin at end of same move phase.

Many thanks, all!

Wallur wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Movement rules in the "Movement Phase" section of the Rulebook do not apply then to this move?

"Once you start moving a unit, you must complete its movement before moving on to another"

So, when you chose to move the IC it is still part of the unit, so you have to choose to move that unit, and then have to move all the models in that unit and at the end of that unit's movement you check if the IC is still part of that unit...

Incorrect. The IC is given special permission to leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of unit coherency. When that permission is invoked the IC is a unit in and of himself.

I guess I just don't see how he can trigger his move while still in the unit, then moving from the unit into one of his own, w/o forcing that units movement too...

To leave the unit means moving front the unit. In 6th ed, when a unit counted as moving even if only a single model moved, could an IC leave this way and still have heavy weapons not snapshot?

MekLeN wrote:
I guess I just don't see how he can trigger his move while still in the unit, then moving from the unit into one of his own, w/o forcing that units movement too...

To leave the unit means moving front the unit. In 6th ed, when a unit counted as moving even if only a single model moved, could an IC leave this way and still have heavy weapons not snapshot?

The IC is a unit all to himself. When he invokes his permission to leave a unit, you select the IC as a unit and move him. The unit he used to be attached to has nothing to do with the IC at this point.

col_impact wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
I guess I just don't see how he can trigger his move while still in the unit, then moving from the unit into one of his own, w/o forcing that units movement too...

To leave the unit means moving front the unit. In 6th ed, when a unit counted as moving even if only a single model moved, could an IC leave this way and still have heavy weapons not snapshot?

The IC is a unit all to himself. When he invokes his permission to leave a unit, you select the IC as a unit and move him. The unit he used to be attached to has nothing to do with the IC at this point.

But he is still a part of the unit until he is out of coherency. Your own quote states that.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
I guess I just don't see how he can trigger his move while still in the unit, then moving from the unit into one of his own, w/o forcing that units movement too...

To leave the unit means moving front the unit. In 6th ed, when a unit counted as moving even if only a single model moved, could an IC leave this way and still have heavy weapons not snapshot?

The IC is a unit all to himself. When he invokes his permission to leave a unit, you select the IC as a unit and move him. The unit he used to be attached to has nothing to do with the IC at this point.

But he is still a part of the unit until he is out of coherency. Your own quote states that.

No, once you invoke the permission to leave a unit which every IC has, he no longer counts as part of the unit and is a unit unto himself.

The permission states this . . .


The permission does not state this . . .


You are adding that restriction.

But how are you taking the IC out of the unit, before he leaves the unit?

In order to move the IC, you need to move the unit. When the unit (as a whole) is being moved, you have permission to move the IC out of coherency. You do not have permission to move the IC unit, since at that moment the IC unit does not exist. Nor will it exist until after the IC moves.

Yea my thoughts... one unit initially, then becomes two.

Upon even touching that units position on the battlefield, being within the movement phase as the only time able (short of run moves or charges, that unit is now in its movement segment of the phase. Move to another squad, no further movement able for initial unit - just that one moment.

You're spoilering a rule that declares "move out of coherency". That means, utilize movement as per turn rules mentioned in the movement section of the book. No?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
I guess I just don't see how he can trigger his move while still in the unit, then moving from the unit into one of his own, w/o forcing that units movement too...

To leave the unit means moving front the unit. In 6th ed, when a unit counted as moving even if only a single model moved, could an IC leave this way and still have heavy weapons not snapshot?

The IC is a unit all to himself. When he invokes his permission to leave a unit, you select the IC as a unit and move him. The unit he used to be attached to has nothing to do with the IC at this point.

But he is still a part of the unit until he is out of coherency. Your own quote states that.

No, once you invoke the permission to leave a unit which every IC has, he no longer counts as part of the unit and is a unit unto himself.

The permission states this . . .

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of
unit coherency with it.

The permission does not state this . . .

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase [while that unit is selected to move] by moving out of
unit coherency with it.

You are adding that restriction.

No, I'm not adding the restriction, nor is that what I'm focusing on. Let me highlight the phrase to make it more clear what I'm saying:

The actual having left isn't recognized until the IC is out of coherency. The Intention to leave the unit allows him to move out of coherency in the first place, but until he actually DOES move out of coherency, he is still part of the unit.

Which he does... the IC moves more than 2" from the unit and is thus out of coherency and is thus his own unit.

Zimko wrote:
Which he does... the IC moves more than 2" from the unit and is thus out of coherency and is thus his own unit.

Indeed. Then the question becomes, what permission do you have that allows the Jump IC to change Movement modes in the middle of Movement?