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So I'm currently experiencing a problem that's really hacking me off, and draining any momentum I get for painting - sometimes after I've applied a wash, and it looks like it's going well when I put it on, by the time it's dried, the deepest recesses have stripped the paint off the model entirely, including the primer, leaving small lines of bare plastic, basically meaning I have to start from scratch.

So clearly something's going wrong in the (eclectic) mix of various manufacturers of paint I'm using - I'm starting by airbrushing Vallejo Grey Primer (sometimes mixed with Vallejo Airbrush Thinner, sometimes not, seems to happen either way), and then depending on colour usually a GW foundation / base colour, with a GW wash or Vallejo ink over the top.

I'm guessing the problem is to do with the primer layer, but am I doing it too thin? too thick? not shaking it enough?

It's proving difficult to get a picture of it in action, as my camera doesn't seem to have the resolution to deal with it, and I'm painting over the problem to try and keep on schedule.

could be the primer isn't fully cured, have used the Vallejo primers here and found them still ever so slightly tacky to touch 10 hours later, started leaving them 24 hours to cure before going further.

Vallejo is very delicate until giving time to cure. 24 hours is good, 48 hours is better. Which is really a drag when you want to get right to painting.

I have read and watched videos describing its particular qualities as a paint. I'm not a chemist so I won't pretend I know but what I read is that its a type of paint that forms a shell over the model of polyurethane. So you need complete coverage. Spray it as thick as you can without obscuring detail then let it dry at least 24 hours but I recommend 48 or 72.

Even then when I am handling a model, either because I'm incautious or I have big hamfists, I find it rubbing off on boots or edges my fingers come into contact with so if you can, try not to touch it at all during painting.

I hear good things about badger stynylrez. Flory models thinks highly of it and the best part about it is its ready to go in a few hours and you can sand it!

Tyronus Fruitridge Powers wrote:
badger stynylrez.

Just had to google that, since it didn't look like a word! I'll give it a go if I can find a supplier in the UK.

I've had the problem with it rubbing off, which I presumed was reaction to the oils in everybody's skin.

Sounds like I'm applying it too thin, since (at least I think) I've been giving it plenty of time to cure.

I've never found Vallejo's primer to stick terribly well. You can wash the model in soapy water, apply a few thin passes and wait a couple of days for it to cure and it will stick "okay", but still not as good as a spray on primer that you followed the same procedure.

One thing I'm looking in to is using Humbrol acrylics as a primer as I've been amazed at how much tougher they are than your average acrylic, though I haven't really had a chance to play around with it. I just happened to notice on the model I'm currently working on the areas I painted with Humbrol are so much more resilient to damage.

But anyway, that's all rather tangential to your problem. How thick are you applying the wash? If you apply a wash tremendously heavily, it shrinks as it dries which can cause problems like cracks appearing (though usually only in the wash rather than the underlying paint).

If you're airbrushing all your paints before washing, as a last step you can just whack some satin or gloss varnish in your airbrush and give it a light coat to toughen it up as well.

To be honest I have yet to find an acrylic primer that is any good,and I would suggest avoiding using them as if it does this it is not worth the bother. You'd be better off using a spray can,or if you can't spray outside(I can't) use enamel primers. With this stuff at least you'll have a steady base to work on.
Just remembered something; I don't think you are meant to thin down vallejo primers and like others said you may need to leave sprayed stuff a few days before touching them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But anyway, that's all rather tangential to your problem. How thick are you applying the wash? If you apply a wash tremendously heavily, it shrinks as it dries which can cause problems like cracks appearing (though usually only in the wash rather than the underlying paint).

If you're airbrushing all your paints before washing, as a last step you can just whack some satin or gloss varnish in your airbrush and give it a light coat to toughen it up as well.

Been fairly thick with the wash in most cases where it's proving a problem, so should probably try several thin layers, but I'm sure I've had the same problem when being subtle too.

Generally I'm airbrushing the primer, and the base colour, then brushing on a secondary (say, Leadbelcher) before applying the wash (in this case, a mix of Nuln Oil and Vallejo Black Ink). I've exagerated the problem (applying a second wash to somewhere I'd already had a problem) to get a picture of the effect (the plain grey near the raised areas of the tracks):

I'll have a look into Humbol primer as well.

@ Slipstream, whilst I can spray inside (mask + extractor fan), I've never liked how heavy the GW sprays I've tried have been, can you suggest an alternative? Or how differently would I need to work with enamels? (could I use the same airbrush?)

polyurethane primer dries quickly, but takes time to cure.

Hit 4 sprues with primer and wait 2 hours, 1 day, 2 days, and 2 weeks and then rub at it, and you'll see. After it fully cures, it doesn't rub off easily at all.

It's no different than rattle can primer: after 2 weeks or so, it will be almost fingernail scratch resistant, whereas after 2 hours, it might feel dry to the touch, but it will come off the edges if you handle your minis there.

The key is... "patience"

 Quanar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But anyway, that's all rather tangential to your problem. How thick are you applying the wash? If you apply a wash tremendously heavily, it shrinks as it dries which can cause problems like cracks appearing (though usually only in the wash rather than the underlying paint).

If you're airbrushing all your paints before washing, as a last step you can just whack some satin or gloss varnish in your airbrush and give it a light coat to toughen it up as well.

Been fairly thick with the wash in most cases where it's proving a problem, so should probably try several thin layers, but I'm sure I've had the same problem when being subtle too.

Generally I'm airbrushing the primer, and the base colour, then brushing on a secondary (say, Leadbelcher) before applying the wash (in this case, a mix of Nuln Oil and Vallejo Black Ink). I've exagerated the problem (applying a second wash to somewhere I'd already had a problem) to get a picture of the effect (the plain grey near the raised areas of the tracks):

I'll have a look into Humbol primer as well.

@ Slipstream, whilst I can spray inside (mask + extractor fan), I've never liked how heavy the GW sprays I've tried have been, can you suggest an alternative? Or how differently would I need to work with enamels? (could I use the same airbrush?)

Do you mean the crevices around the grousers? Maybe it's just hard to see, but that picture doesn't look like it's damaging the underlying paint, rather it looks like the wash is drying cloudy in areas. That can happen when you haven't mixed (shaken) the wash properly before using it and I think can also happen if you've got a bad pot of wash (I have never had a bad pot that did that but I've heard other people make comments that they have).

It's more inclined to happen on areas where the wash is deep.

Washes *can* potentially strip paint, but not easily, you need a *really* deep pool and you usually need to agitate the underlying paint to lift it (if you just apply the wash it might soften the underlying paint, but it'll simply go hard again once it's left to dry).

You could also try applying a bit of gloss varnish just with a hairy brush to the areas that have gone grey, sometimes it'll make them go back to the proper colour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
polyurethane primer dries quickly, but takes time to cure.

Hit 4 sprues with primer and wait 2 hours, 1 day, 2 days, and 2 weeks and then rub at it, and you'll see. After it fully cures, it doesn't rub off easily at all.

It's no different than rattle can primer: after 2 weeks or so, it will be almost fingernail scratch resistant, whereas after 2 hours, it might feel dry to the touch, but it will come off the edges if you handle your minis there.

The key is... "patience"

While I agree all paints harden up more over time, Vallejo primer starts weaker than other primers start and even after waiting all that time it ends weaker than other primers end.

With a decent rattle can spray I'm usually happy to lay extra layers of paint on top of it within an hour or two (basically when it's dry to the touch) where as Vallejo primer takes significantly longer to reach that toughness.

But either way I'm not yet convinced the OP's problem is a primer problem to begin with.

I agree with skink, that looks like the clouding I got with some GW washes as well.

Shake it, or replace it (and then shake it). There really isn't anything in there that will lift paint.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Do you mean the crevices around the grousers? Maybe it's just hard to see, but that picture doesn't look like it's damaging the underlying paint, rather it looks like the wash is drying cloudy in areas. That can happen when you haven't mixed (shaken) the wash properly before using it and I think can also happen if you've got a bad pot of wash (I have never had a bad pot that did that but I've heard other people make comments that they have).

It's more inclined to happen on areas where the wash is deep.

Washes *can* potentially strip paint, but not easily, you need a *really* deep pool and you usually need to agitate the underlying paint to lift it (if you just apply the wash it might soften the underlying paint, but it'll simply go hard again once it's left to dry).

You could also try applying a bit of gloss varnish just with a hairy brush to the areas that have gone grey, sometimes it'll make them go back to the proper colour.

Just googled 'grousers' and yes, that's the area I mean.

By 'hairy brush' do you mean a brush with stiff bristles, like a drybrush?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
While I agree all paints harden up more over time, Vallejo primer starts weaker than other primers start and even after waiting all that time it ends weaker than other primers end.

With a decent rattle can spray I'm usually happy to lay extra layers of paint on top of it within an hour or two (basically when it's dry to the touch) where as Vallejo primer takes significantly longer to reach that toughness.

But either way I'm not yet convinced the OP's problem is a primer problem to begin with.

Agreed on all of your points.

For sure, Vallejo P/U primer isn't as tough as rattle can primer like P3, and for this reason, I use rattle cans to prime resin or plastic gaming boards. But.. it *IS* plenty tough, and there's no way you should be able to scrape it off with your wash, once it's reasonably dry (even half an hour, unless it was plastered on thick).

 Quanar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Do you mean the crevices around the grousers? Maybe it's just hard to see, but that picture doesn't look like it's damaging the underlying paint, rather it looks like the wash is drying cloudy in areas. That can happen when you haven't mixed (shaken) the wash properly before using it and I think can also happen if you've got a bad pot of wash (I have never had a bad pot that did that but I've heard other people make comments that they have).

It's more inclined to happen on areas where the wash is deep.

Washes *can* potentially strip paint, but not easily, you need a *really* deep pool and you usually need to agitate the underlying paint to lift it (if you just apply the wash it might soften the underlying paint, but it'll simply go hard again once it's left to dry).

You could also try applying a bit of gloss varnish just with a hairy brush to the areas that have gone grey, sometimes it'll make them go back to the proper colour.

Just googled 'grousers' and yes, that's the area I mean.

By 'hairy brush' do you mean a brush with stiff bristles, like a drybrush?

Nah I just mean a regular brush that you use for painting (opposed to an airbrush).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
While I agree all paints harden up more over time, Vallejo primer starts weaker than other primers start and even after waiting all that time it ends weaker than other primers end.

With a decent rattle can spray I'm usually happy to lay extra layers of paint on top of it within an hour or two (basically when it's dry to the touch) where as Vallejo primer takes significantly longer to reach that toughness.

But either way I'm not yet convinced the OP's problem is a primer problem to begin with.

Agreed on all of your points.

For sure, Vallejo P/U primer isn't as tough as rattle can primer like P3, and for this reason, I use rattle cans to prime resin or plastic gaming boards. But.. it *IS* plenty tough, and there's no way you should be able to scrape it off with your wash, once it's reasonably dry (even half an hour, unless it was plastered on thick).

Well it depends what you consider "plenty" tough I guess. I find it tough enough for most my miniature painting, I've found it lacking for painting vehicles where I end up handling them a lot more while painting them and want to mask them without having to wait several days each time.

I have used and continue to use Vallejo primer but I think when this current bottle runs out I'll probably switch back to rattle cans or try and find something else again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb_lock wrote:
There really isn't anything in there that will lift paint.

Washes can soften paint (depending on the brand I guess, I haven't tested them all). I discovered that when I put a few drops of wash in to a cup on my palette that already had some dried blue paint in it, it softened the paint in the cup to the point where the wash got tinted blue, lol.

BUT, yeah, on an actual model it shouldn't be a problem, the wash has to be applied very very deep for it to soften paint and then even if it does I'm pretty sure you'd have to agitate the paint before it actually has a problem regardless of what primer it was or how long you waited for the primer to cure.

Make sure you are using Vallejo "Surface Primer" and not the color "Grey Primer" which confusingly enough is not actually primer. It's just regular paint with a poorly chosen name.

Suks wrote:
Make sure you are using Vallejo "Surface Primer" and not the color "Grey Primer" which confusingly enough is not actually primer. It's just regular paint with a poorly chosen name.

Yep, just checked, definitely the Surface Primer.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But either way I'm not yet convinced the OP's problem is a primer problem to begin with.

Just tried the gloss varnish thing, and you're right - it hadn't removed the lower layers, but even after the gloss it wasn't shaded, so I guess I need to wash it again.

So I'm obviously some sort of moron, but the important question is how to stop it doing it again? Thinner / lighter washes? Adding Medium (i.e. GW Lahmian Medium or equivalent)? Adding drying retarder (Vallejo Retarder Medium)?

So I'm obviously some sort of moron, but the important question is how to stop it doing it again? Thinner / lighter washes? Adding Medium (i.e. GW Lahmian Medium or equivalent)? Adding drying retarder (Vallejo Retarder Medium)?

No need to thin. It needs to be mixed more thoroughly. If you have an agitator, like a split-shot washer, put that in and shake away. When you think you have mixed it enough give it a couple of more. You can also put the pot between your palms and roll it back and forth.

 Quanar wrote:

Suks wrote:
Make sure you are using Vallejo "Surface Primer" and not the color "Grey Primer" which confusingly enough is not actually primer. It's just regular paint with a poorly chosen name.

Yep, just checked, definitely the Surface Primer.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But either way I'm not yet convinced the OP's problem is a primer problem to begin with.

Just tried the gloss varnish thing, and you're right - it hadn't removed the lower layers, but even after the gloss it wasn't shaded, so I guess I need to wash it again.

So I'm obviously some sort of moron, but the important question is how to stop it doing it again? Thinner / lighter washes? Adding Medium (i.e. GW Lahmian Medium or equivalent)? Adding drying retarder (Vallejo Retarder Medium)?

It's more than likely that it's either not mixed properly (just give it a right proper shake for a few minutes, maybe even try stirring it with a bit of sprue to make sure it's not claggy on the bottom) or it's a dud bottle (hasn't happened to me personally, but I know it does happen, either return it or just buy a new one).

It can happen even with a good properly mixed bottle if you apply it *way* too heavy, but really you have to apply it extremely heavy for that to happen so I doubt that's the problem (I think it might be because the paint is separating before it dries or maybe the surface is being stretched when there's a deep puddle), but maybe try thinner layers if you think that might be the problem.

You can also follow the regular precautions like making sure the underlying paint has had at least a couple of hours to dry before applying the wash.

But my money is simply on it being a dud pot of wash or you need to mix it more thoroughly.

EDIT: I just noticed you said in your previous post "a mix of Nuln Oil and Vallejo Black Ink" that could *possibly* be a problem as well, I'm not sure if those are compatible. I personally have not tried mixing those washes, but in general sometimes when you mix paints from different lines they separate from the binder more easily, normally that's not a huge problem (just have to mix it more frequently) but in the context of a wash, maybe it's causing a problem?

I appreciate the help everybody! Thank you.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

EDIT: I just noticed you said in your previous post "a mix of Nuln Oil and Vallejo Black Ink" that could *possibly* be a problem as well, I'm not sure if those are compatible. I personally have not tried mixing those washes, but in general sometimes when you mix paints from different lines they separate from the binder more easily, normally that's not a huge problem (just have to mix it more frequently) but in the context of a wash, maybe it's causing a problem?

I know Vallejo washes don't play well with others (from personal experience), but I don't know about the inks. Try using one brand. If you want a black wash that is heavier than Nuln Oil try Secret Weapons Miniatures Heavy Body Black. It falls between an ink and a typical black wash.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
EDIT: I just noticed you said in your previous post "a mix of Nuln Oil and Vallejo Black Ink" that could *possibly* be a problem as well, I'm not sure if those are compatible. I personally have not tried mixing those washes, but in general sometimes when you mix paints from different lines they separate from the binder more easily, normally that's not a huge problem (just have to mix it more frequently) but in the context of a wash, maybe it's causing a problem?

I've had the problem when only using a single colour before, but this seems another thing to watch out for. Can I just water-down the Ink so it's not quite so strong then, rather than mixing it? Or mix it with a Medium?