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Eventually, I'd like to make it into a fully fledged codex, but for now I'd like to make a formation for the Alpha Legion (as well as any others among the Traitor Legions).

I'd like to avoid an Apocalypse formation (like the Emperor's Children Warband), but still want it to be good. I will be playtesting this formation against my brothers (Imperial Guard and Dark Angels) as well as anyone at my LGS who wants to help. (Tau, Grey Knights, and various others.)

Right now, all I can think is giving the units ATSKNF and maybe Infiltrate, but that's it. Maybe a bonus to Cultist units? (the Alpha Legion is known to train their cultists better than others.)

Maybe make them subversive, give them access to other codex weaponry (in specific situations).

I'm just spitballing at this point. (honestly pretty new to 40K, less than a year of experience.)

what do you think? Is this even the right forum for this kind of discussion?

I've been kicking around Alpha Legion ideas too, especially since they're kind of hard to play using actual CSM rules. I've been using Raptor Chapter Tactics for them.

I'm not sure I'd prioritize ATSKNF. It's weird that CSM in general are bigger scaredy cats than their counterparts who *don't* have residence in the Eye of Terror, but if other legions aren't getting ATSKNF/Fearless, then Alpha Legion wouldn't be my first choice of legions to give it to. They're no cowards, but they are pragmatic. Sticking around to get punched by a terminator just doesn't make as much sense as running out of the fray to plot and plan another day.

Infiltrate should really be a thing for any Alpha Legion affiliate in power armor, in my opinion.

Some things on my Alpha Legion Wishlist:

*An "elite" cultist unit lead by a chaos marine. Make them BS3, give everyone in the squad access to a special weapon/sniper rifle, and then give them IG veteran style rules to represent the mission they were trained for. Something like:

Assassination: Precision shots form this unit may not be Look Out Sir!'d.
Demolitions: The unit gains Tank Hunter.
Discord: Enemy units treat one piece of terrain of your choice as dangerous terrain.

* Saboteurs: Like a toned down version of the 30k Alpha Legion unit that goes behind enemy lines to sabotage things. These guys aren't individually especially powerful, but they can inflict damage on enemy units before the game starts in a fashion similar to the Raptors chapter master. Probably an elite unit. Maybe make them 1 man units without independent character to represent that they're lone-wolfing it.

* Stealth Marines: In the novels, the Legion has access to highly advanced holographic projectors that let them disguise themselves as normal humans, change appearances, in the middle of a crowded street, and more. An elite squad with shrouded and maybe preferred enemy against a specific unit called out before the game starts would be neat.

* A warlord trait called "I am Alpharius" that negates Slay the Warlord and similar secondary objectives. How can the enemy be sure they really got your leader?

*Aspiring champions as an upgrade for cultist squads.

* Access to some of the "newer" imperial tech. If anyone can get their hands on super secret blue prints, it's the legion. Even before the heresy, having access to tech they officially weren't supposed to have access to was one of their things.

* Probably replace Gift of Mutation with something. The Legion has relatively stable geneseed, and they aren't especially associated with the Eye of Terror. They've kind of gone to ground in the Imperium itself rather than hiding out in the Eye.

* No access to marks of chaos on marine units (cultists and daemonengines can still take them). While the Legion is happy to use the forces of chaos to their advantage, they aren't really known for falling to a particular god. I feel like infiltrate might be a reasonable replacement for this, but it's less useful against armies you don't want to outflank/infiltrate against, so... *shrug*

EDIT: To me, an Alpha Legion army should feel like it set itself up for victory weeks ago, and the enemy is just finding out how much trouble they're really in. Less emphasis on big explosions, psychic powers, and melee, and more emphasis on reserves and pre-game advantages. The Legion is sneaky, but it isn't Raven Guard-style sneaky. The Guard is literally good at sneaking past people. The Alpha Legion is too, but they're more about hiding in plain sight, literally infiltrating enemy ranks and setting up the enemy for the big back stab. So Thousand Sons have their psykers, and World Eaters have their axes, and those guys look a lot more intimidating at a glance than the Legion army with all its puny cultists and its cultists who don't appear to have an unusually strong punch to them. But then the meltabombs someone hid in your vehicles days ago detonate, and you realize your intel about the enemy position was off because their main force is actually behind you, and hey, has your own commander always been that tall and heavily armored? Oh, no, that's just the legionnaire that killed and replaced the commander last night disabling his holo-projector and raising his bolter towards you.

I'm going to respond to your edit, because I agree with just about everything else you said. I agree with the edit, too, just expounding on it.

apparently, in 30k, if you had the same unit as an opponent's who is coming in from reserve, you could roll to have your unit come in instead. Maybe we could have something like that, except same "class" of unit (Terminators, Jump Infantry, that sort of thing) and throw in something about the opponent snap shotting at them for the first turn they come in. Make that a Warlord trait, along with "I am Alpherius". Call it "you thought they were with you?"

And I like the idea of "specialist" Cult units, but I also like the idea of "better trained" Cultists, as well. So maybe an option to give them +1 BS for 2 points a model, or something, if you don't give them the Sniper.

What I like about the Alpha Legion is their flexibility, and the information control.

I just realized while writing this that it's possible the Legion would focus a bit... more on Cultists than other legions would. And I'm realizing that this is becoming a full on Codex *VERY* quickly.

I think that maybe a good way of representing the "I Am Alpharius" things would be maybe, if your warlord is killed, on a 5+, your enemy does not gain a slay the warlord victory point and a randomly determined character becomes the warlord instead.

I can agree with that, it makes sense because there's a chance that the opponent could "get lucky".

But, looking back, I feel that maybe "I am Alpherius" could be our replacement for Champion of Chaos, since I feel that rule doesn't really... fit... with the Alpha Legion.

So, instead of having it be a Warlord Trait, it's a rule that certain characters (or just characters in general) where if your warlord dies, you roll a D6, and on a 5+ you get to have one of your other units at random with that rule become your warlord. Your Warlord is not considered having been killed.

This would only come into effect if your starting warlord has the "I am Alpherius" special rule.

Another thing that comes to my attention is that... well... stealing reinforcements is *powerful*, so maybe replace that with -1 to opponent's reinforcement roll, and they scatter with 3d6 instead of 2 when deep striking.

Walker Boh wrote:
I can agree with that, it makes sense because there's a chance that the opponent could "get lucky".

But, looking back, I feel that maybe "I am Alpherius" could be our replacement for Champion of Chaos, since I feel that rule doesn't really... fit... with the Alpha Legion.

So, instead of having it be a Warlord Trait, it's a rule that certain characters (or just characters in general) where if your warlord dies, you roll a D6, and on a 5+ you get to have one of your other units at random with that rule become your warlord. Your Warlord is not considered having been killed.

This would only come into effect if your starting warlord has the "I am Alpherius" special rule.

Another thing that comes to my attention is that... well... stealing reinforcements is *powerful*, so maybe replace that with -1 to opponent's reinforcement roll, and they scatter with 3d6 instead of 2 when deep striking.

I Am Alpharius: Not sure how I feel about the 5+ thing. On one hand, potentially making your opponent whack-a-mole a bunch of different characters all game and still not kill your warlord is cool. On the other hand, the 5+ thing makes this a rule that only has a 1 in 3 chance of working, that only comes into effect in games where your warlord is killed, that makes it so that you don't give up a single extra VP (in most cases) right away but can still give up that VP later on if the new warlord 2.0 gets killed. It seems too situational and unreliable, and it's a passive effect rather than an active/interactive one (like Champion of Chaos) that will only make a 1 VP difference (unless your opponent gets the assassination tactical objective or something).

I agree that Champion of Chaos doesn't really fit Alpha Legion, but these two effects aren't a great replacement for one another. Gaining gifts of mutation in challenges changes the way an army plays significantly. I am Alpharius as you've presented it is more of a "nice if it works" type thing. I say make "I am Alpharius" just be a warlord trait that flat out denies VP points for killing a "warlord" (though not for killing a unit). Infiltrate, to me, is a much better replacement for Champion of Chaos. It lets you outflank as well as infiltrate. Having this on a big chunk of your army means you can potentially run a reserves list and thus have a solid delivery system for your chaos stuff (egads!). It also potentially lets you get off a solid alpha strike or set up speedbumps as appropriate by deploying certain things forward early.

Regarding the "stealing reserves" thing, I think it's fine if it doesn't actually destroy enemy reserves. Just replaces them as they come in. So on any turn before turn 4 (when all enemy units automatically arrive) when an enemy unit arrives from reserves, roll a d6. On a 4+, that enemy unit remains in reserves, and a unit of your own that is currently in reserves arrives instead immediately after all enemy units are done moving onto the table/deepstriking. Note that this doesn't work when units are spawned/summoned and isn't triggered by ongoing reserves. So half the time, you'll keep a little more of your opponent's army off the board and bring yours on (with the option to assault things on your coming turn!) instead. To do so, however, you have to start with enough of your own units in reserve to have something to "steal" the arrival with. Feels very Alpha Legion-fluffy to me, and is somewhat balanced by the lack of early-game board presence you'll have. I think this would work really well as a formation/detachment special rule.

I'll agree that I am Alpherius as I presented isn't really reliable, but I also feel that it's a little... underwhelming as a Warlord Trait. I think there might be a middle ground. (distance, maybe, or you write down which character is your warlord before the game starts.) Or change the Warlord Trait around so that it, well, *feels* like a Warlord Trait. Then again, a Chaos Warlord Trait gives d3 units Infiltrate, so I could be wrong.

I do agree with replacing Champion with Infiltrate, and can agree that not destroying the opponent's reserves is a big thing. However, that said, I feel that it's still a bit *too* strong for a Warlord Trait. Maybe make it a trait on a Unique Character. But, again, the argument could be made to make it a Warlord Trait.

Maybe we could do both mine and yours, have -1 to Reserves and Deep Strikes scattering on 3d6 be a different warlord trait, with stealing reserves maybe on a Formation.

I am Alpharius as a warlord trait is unreliable to get, but it does "safeguard" a victory point when you get it. Maybe just make it a piece of "wargear" representing that you've specifically taken time to dress up your warlord to look similar to his inferiors? The problem I see with it as a warlord trait is that it's passive and probably not as helpful as say, most results on the command or strategic tables. That said, it's also not a trait I would dislike getting if it were on an Alpha Legion Warlord Trait Table full of other good options. I don't know. I'm always hesitant to say "let's add more to it" because that's an invitation for mechanics to become bloated. Maybe just make it a minor bonus tied to Alpha Legion detachments and formations? "If this detachment/formation is taken as your primary detachment, your opponent receives no points for the Slay the Warlord objective."

I wouldn't like the reserve stealing as a warlord trait. It's the sort of thing that you kind of need to build your army around to some extent. Taking a bunch of units designed to sucker punch things as they stole enemy reserves and then *not* rolling that trait would be frustrating. I say either make it a formation consisting only about three squads in power-armored marines (so tacs, raptors, havocs, etc.), or else make it a benefit of a larger detachment (like a Masque or Realspace Raiders equivalent.) The former limits what units can benefit from it but also makes it cheaper to include in your army; basically stealing reserves is that formations whole shtick. The latter gives you more flexibility with which types of units can benefit from it but also takes more points to field. The latter could also be designed to grant reserves stealing but to take away objective secured and/or your warlord trait reroll.

hmm... por que no los dos? (on the reserve stealing) we're all about flexibility, yes? so, it kind of makes sense that several formations would have at least *some* overlap.

So, the "Mantle of Alpherius" being a Wargear option... I like it. Maybe have something where you secretly designate a model with that wargear as your warlord, and so long as that model is alive, every model with the Mantle gains your warlord trait. (within reason, of course.) Alternatively, although this is probably a bad idea, not have warlord traits that don't depend on where your warlord is. Make the Mantle cost something like 30 points each.

I'm going to go to my LGS to talk with some of the fluff guys there tomorrow, see what's what and what makes sense. One of the fluff guys is also a rules guy, so he might be able to help.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean regarding the reserves stealing thing (which we need to name ). If you're saying it could be both a formation/detachment bonus and a warlord trait, I'm against that because you stand to either be frustrated when you want the trait because you didn't take the formation or else you'll be frustrated when you do take the formation and also roll the warlord trait. ^_^; It's like if you rolled a warlord trait that made your melee attacks AP3 after buying a power sword. You'd feel silly for not buying the power sword if you didn't get the unreliable warlord trait, but you'd have essentially wasted points on the sword if you *did*roll the trait.

The Mantle of Alpharius is an interesting-but-messy idea. Your double-negative is a bit confusing, but my understanding is that it basically gives your warlord trait to everyone with a mantle, right? The thing about that is that, if I were to roll on a generic table for a warlord trait as an Alpha Legion player, it would probably be the Strategic table (or maybe Tactical); it just seems fluffy for them. Assuming you don't want to have multiple -1 to reserve rolls and Master of Ambushes stack, the mantle wouldn't really do anything. It would be useful if you rolled off the Personal or Command tables, but that doesn't scream Alpha Legion to me. And even then, 30 points a pop is *very* expensive for what you get off of the personal table and probably still not worth it on the command table.

I'm biased, but personally, I'd rather see something simple that just denies Slay the Warlord representing guys at the end of the game going, "So we killed their leader, right?" "I don't know; they all dress up to look like one another. Who can be sure?"

Something like the Mantle of Alpharius might be an interesting relic though. Give it a big price tag, but have it let you give a single character in your army the warlord's statline and special rules (but keep their existing wargear) when the warlord dies. That wasn't the warlord at the front of the army with the fancy cape and sword! That was some red herring that you were *meant* to focus fire on! The real threat is the guy with the power claw that's about to jump into combat with you!

I'm saying that we can have a small formation with that bonus, and a large formation with that bonus.

what the mantle does is make it so that your warlord trait does not disappear until your actual warlord is dead. (if the warlord trait is something that only the model has, then I don't think it would work.) I'll admit it was sort of a spur of the moment thing, and I didn't really think it through.

I think that going with it as a relic would probably be best. And yeah, I'll agree that "I am Alpherius" would still make an interesting warlord trait, denying points for your warlord dying.

I think a good name for replacing reserves would be something like "Those are Ours" or something like that.

Here's what I had put in my 7th Ed Codex. I did it initially for 6th and it's in need of updating. The Lords special was based on Trazyn from the 5th ed Necron Codex. It's a bit wordy currently It had a rule similar to your I Am Alpharius one.

Whole thing here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Pilau%20Rice's%207th%20Edition%20Chaos%20Fandex#Alpha_Legion

The Alpharius: Lord Stats (Trazyn costs 175)

Character: ? (n/a?)

Heads of the Hydra: Before deployment write down on a piece of paper the location of the True Alpharius by nominating an Aspiring Champion that will replace your warlord should he die. You do not have to reveal the true nature of this champion unless he is killed before hand. If the Alpharius is removed from play as a casualty, replace the nominated Aspiring Champion with your Warlord model, removing the Champion from play. The Alpharius is equipped with the same purchased wargear and has the same statistics but only has one wound. The Alpharius only awards kill points once he has been slain and does not return. Models replaced by The Alpharius award kill points as normal. If the Champion is slain beforehand then the Alpharius is slain outright if his last wound is removed.

Mark of the Hydra: All Chosen Chaos Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Cultist squads with the Mark of the Hydra have the (Scout?/infilitrate?) special rule. In addition Chosen Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, due to their nature of operating in small cells, may Combat Squad.

that... that actually works, kinda. I'm going to go through your codex, if you don't mind, and see if I can adapt it to what I'm looking for.