Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

blaktoof wrote:well on the same datasheet you see the entry for Assault Squad. When the rule for the formation says Assault Squad it means the models purchased assault squad for that formation. Not that the rule benefits a Unit, since it is not a rule that benefits an unit by the rules as written. If it were they would have written it as such.

This is what it says at the beginning of the Datasheet legend for Codex Space Marines:
"Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000.

ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
1. Faction: ...
2. Battlefield Role: ...
3. Points Cost: ...
4. Unit Name: Here you will find the name of the unit.
5. Unit Profile: This section will show the profiles of any models the unit can include.
6. Unit Type: ...
7. Unit Composition: This section shows the number and type of models that form the
basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.
8. Wargear: ...
9. Warlord Traits: ..
10. Special Rules: ...
11. Chapter Relics: ...
12. Unit Description: ...
13. Options: ...
Formations
Formation datasheets are identified by this symbol. The rules for Formations can be found in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain."

Show me at which point it says anything to mean, "When the rule for the formation says Assault Squad it means the models purchased assault squad for that formation." out of that.

And you still haven't referenced anything properly yet regarding this subject.

blaktoof wrote:And there is no need to make up a rule that the name of an unit is the same as saying unit for rules purposes.

There is a need when an IC joins for all rules purposes and only lists Special Rules being an exception, and not unit names. You are placing your own prejudices in place as rules. And since you don't think it needs to be written, then you've been purporting HYWPI as RAW this entire time.

gungo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
blaktoof, if an IC joins a unit of Sternguard Veterans, what is the unit? Please cite any relevant rules to back up your stance.

Is this a joke?
An ork pain boy that joins a squad of stormboyz is not called a stormboy. It still is a painboy. However it is a "unit" that doesn't mean it becomes a stormboy squad nor does it become an inquisitor squad. It's just a unit. No name no title because the rules never state anywhere a character changes his title anywhere.

Is this intended to be a joke or just trolling? It has been explained by myself at least twice now, and I haven't kept track of the others.

Why are you suggesting that a model change its name when we haven't suggested it? Would you call the Nob in a Stormboy unit a Stormboy? If not, why would you suggest this?

No, in this case, the Pain Boy remains a Pain Boy model, it just subsumes it's Pain Boy Unit identity in to the Stormboy unit identity while joined.

gungo wrote:The other joke In this thread is claiming the itc is the only rule body that stated characters don't gain formations rules from skyhammer. Nearly every major tournament EtC, ITC, even warhammer world all stated this doesn't work. And the same 3-4 people on this thread brushed it all off that none of those people know the rules and only they are correct. Hence the pointlessness of arguing with these people. They are living in thoer own little bubble saying everyone else is wrong and they are right. You're never going to change thier mind nor does it matter because no one plays this way.

The joke is using Tournament decisions to define RAW when they House Rule against it all the time, especially where they are concerned about balance. Remember, nothing about what we've stated has been regarding how strong the set up is, or even how well balanced it is. We are simply discussing if it is legal in the base rules.

Even more a joke is applying standards that are in your own heads and declaring them as RAW without proper reference. I created a list of counter-arguments used, but no one has yet to answer them in any form. You want to talk about pointless. Try arguing with someone who cannot even present a rules-based argument for the position, but instead relies on House Rules and Balance as the arguments as to why it is illegal.

gungo wrote:
The other joke In this thread is claiming the itc is the only rule body that stated characters don't gain formations rules from skyhammer. Nearly every major tournament EtC, ITC, even warhammer world all stated this doesn't work. And the same 3-4 people on this thread brushed it all off that none of those people know the rules and only they are correct. Hence the pointlessness of arguing with these people. They are living in thoer own little bubble saying everyone else is wrong and they are right. You're never going to change thier mind nor does it matter because no one plays this way.

´

Just let me get one thing straight: The ITC and "other rule bodies" clearly make house rules in order to balance the game. The Skyhammer formation in itself is very strong, allowing ICs (regardless of RAW) to benefit from the Formation would make it even stronger. That is the primary reason why the ITC and many other do not allow ICs to benefit. All TOs i know allow Psyker Mastery Levels within a unit to "stack". Does that make sense? Yes. Does it help balance the game? Probably. Is it rules as written? No, period.

Bringing up ITC house rulings and similar stuff in a discussion about the actual rules as written simply distracts from the actual topic - the rules as written. Sure, you can use the ITC as a guideline, but simply saying "but the ITC ruled it like that" is not an argument. Rules as written do not include tournament rule sets nor does it include an event somewhere. It only ever includes the rules as they are written in a Book, official PDF or FAQ/Errata.

If you want to discuss balance or balancing changes, go to the subforum right below this one - it's called 40K Proposed Rules for a reason. If you want to discuss tournament rules, either go to the TOs site or go to the corresponding subforum called Tournament Discussions.

This isn't tournament rules as even warhammer world doesn't play it this way. In fact the tournaments themselves don't even claim attaching characters to the skyhammer formation as a rule change because it's not. The only house ruling is by the individuals trying to attach independent charscters to the skyhammer formation and claim they are considered an assault squad.

gungo wrote:
This isn't tournament rules as even warhammer world doesn't play it this way. In fact the tournaments themselves don't even claim attaching characters to the skyhammer formation as a rule change because it's not. The only house ruling is by the individuals trying to attach independent charscters to the skyhammer formation and claim they are considered an assault squad.

Please, go on. Please demonstrate how we have been inaccurate in our references. Please provide references so we may review the rules regarding this situation. We've only asked for them ad nauseum by now.

But here's a few factors that you don't seem to understand, because your own final statement demonstrates that you have not even attempted to understand our position:

We have never once claimed that an attached IC is an assault squad. The idea is ludicrous in the extreme, and is closer to Blacktoof's assumptive reasoning. An Assault Squad is a UNIT that consists of models numbering 1 Sergeant (of variable rank) and 4-9 Marines. When the IC joins the Assault Squad, it becomes a unit that consists of models numbering 1 Sergeant, 4-9 Marines, and the IC.

Please demonstrate the error of that last statement, if you can. And please provide references, or be known as the joke you called our position earlier.

gungo wrote:
This isn't tournament rules as even warhammer world doesn't play it this way. In fact the tournaments themselves don't even claim attaching characters to the skyhammer formation as a rule change because it's not. The only house ruling is by the individuals trying to attach independent charscters to the skyhammer formation and claim they are considered an assault squad.

When you say Warhammer World plays it a certain way what do you mean? Are you using their tournament FAQ? Or the word of a staff member (because I've spoken to a staff member who thinks our side is correct)? What do you mean by that statement?

gungo wrote:
This isn't tournament rules as even warhammer world doesn't play it this way. In fact the tournaments themselves don't even claim attaching characters to the skyhammer formation as a rule change because it's not. The only house ruling is by the individuals trying to attach independent charscters to the skyhammer formation and claim they are considered an assault squad.

Noone is claiming that.

We are claiming that, when an IC joins an Assault Squad, the unit name remains ASsault Squad. This is a truth, as in, you cannot argue against it

However, we have also noticed you dont even try to argue rules. You just repeat, ad nauseum, that house rules from tournaments such as ETC (the famous houseruling against raw all the fething time tournament scene) somehow matter.

They dont

The actual rules matter. The ones you ignore. The ones you pretend dont exist. The ones where you twist argumetns, deliberately misrepresenting clear as day statements by others in the vain hope we wont notice that you are arguing dishonestly.

You are, on this matter, utterly incorrect. The RAW is proven.

Blaktoof - I will not continue this dialogue of the deaf with you. You fail to cite a single relevant rule, or answer honestly the questions posed. Bye.

gungo wrote:
This isn't tournament rules as even warhammer world doesn't play it this way.

Warhammer World and "conversations with an GW employee" fall under the "event" category to me. If GW doesn't provide a FAQ or Errata, it is NOT "rules as written". GW employees simply give you an opinion piece, and you should treat it as such.WHW - as was already pointed out - makes sure players have fun in a fair (balanced) environment and if that means bending or breaking this or that rule, I'm sure they're fine with that. See again my example of how Psykers are treated - I BET they allow you to count all psykers in a unit toward your warp charge count. Still doesn't make it rules as written!

In fact the tournaments themselves don't even claim attaching characters to the skyhammer formation as a rule change because it's not.

Let me quote the damn ITC FAQ:

Space Marines

Vehicles in an Iron Hands detachment benefit from the Machine Empathy special rule even if they do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule.

Independant Characters may not benefit from the special rules granted from the Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation. For example, they are not able to assault out of reserves, nor do they gain Relentless, etc.

The Captain in a Battle Demi-Company or Battle Company formation may not be upgraded to a Chapter Master.

These three lines are the latest additions for SM in the ITC FAQ found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub
So you're saying despite the other two rules clearly being rule changes that the one in the middle is not, by some kind of miracle, a rule change?

The only house ruling is by the individuals trying to attach independent charscters to the skyhammer formation and claim they are considered an assault squad.

Charistoph said it almost perfectly:

Charistoph wrote:We have never once claimed that an attached IC is an assault squad. An Assault Squad is a UNIT that consists of models numbering 1 Sergeant (of variable rank) and 4-9 Marines. When the IC joins the Assault Squad, it (the Assault Squad) becomes a unit that consists of models numbering 1 Sergeant, 4-9 Marines, and the IC.

I've added the bold part for clarification. The entire premise is based on this rule:

BRB, Independent Characters wrote:While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

If you refute that claim, please provide actual rules without twisting the arguments presented to something different.

You forget the funky part that "Special rules of a unit do not carry over to the IC". And all the perks of the skyhammer formation are under a nice blanket title of "Special rules:".

topaxygouroun i wrote:
You forget the funky part that "Special rules of a unit do not carry over to the IC". And all the perks of the skyhammer formation are under a nice blanket title of "Special rules:".

Please cite a rule that an IC cannot benefit from a special rule that a unit has. The IC does not gain the rule(s) in question, but nobody has ever posited that.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
You forget the funky part that "Special rules of a unit do not carry over to the IC". And all the perks of the skyhammer formation are under a nice blanket title of "Special rules:".

PLease, provide a source for that quote. Or was it just yet more rules mangling from the "I dont like it" camp?

Please show how the IC cannot BENEFIT from the rule. We do not even have to show they *have* the rule, just that they, as a normal member of the unit, beenfit from the effect of the rule (being allowed to charge))

Please, if you wish to engage in a rules debate, please quote rules. If you are just arguing hywpi, please follow the tenets and make this clear.

So if the ic joined a formation that wasn't decurion type, and that formations gained feel no pain or relentless, would the ic also get it?

Many of you who are for the ics joining the sky hammer said no, then said it is completely different. Well it isn't, its the exact same premise you are all proposing but when you look at it like that it sounds wrong.

Either way I would outright refuse to play against the this formation if someone tried to attach ics to the unit because that move in a pick up game is the definition of a TFG move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
You forget the funky part that "Special rules of a unit do not carry over to the IC". And all the perks of the skyhammer formation are under a nice blanket title of "Special rules:".

PLease, provide a source for that quote. Or was it just yet more rules mangling from the "I dont like it" camp?

Please show how the IC cannot BENEFIT from the rule. We do not even have to show they *have* the rule, just that they, as a normal member of the unit, beenfit from the effect of the rule (being allowed to charge))

Please, if you wish to engage in a rules debate, please quote rules. If you are just arguing hywpi, please follow the tenets and make this clear.

Independent Character special rule: "When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the independent character, and the independent character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

Skyhammer formation consists of X and Y squads. A skyhammer formation does not have an IC in it. The Skyhammer formation gains some Special Rules which are described perfectly clear in their entry as being "Special rules". The IC you join in a skyhammer is a part of the unit. Hoerver, because it is not stated so in the Rule, the unit's Special rules do not carry over to the IC, as per the IC Special rule statement.

You are welcome.

Sigh. So you havent read the thread then. Or even my post. If you had, you would see these had been covered more than 10 times already.

SHow how the IC cannoT BENEFIT FROM the rule. Page and graph. Benefit is not the same as conferred. Notice how your rule only talks about "conferred", andnever mentions "benefits"? Have you noticed how you can benefit from something while never having the thing?

Secondly, when the IC joins the unit -> before deployment <- the unit does not have certain rules, does it? Your reading of the skyhammer rule should tell you this is true. So, a rule applying to ICs joinING does not apply to an IC who has joinED, by simple use of, well, actual language and how the rules of the language work.

"Benefit is not same as conferred". You are playing with words. I am not playing the wording game, sorry. I showed you a crystal clear rule that states that the IC does not get the special rules its unit has. The burden of proof is on your side now. You show me a specific rule that states your opinion, or I will stick to the actuall printed rule that makes perfect sense. Trying to convince me with changing the wording does not work and I really really doubt it will work on any TO once someone like me shows them the IC rule.

On your second part, you are still wrong. A skyhammer formation has its special rules way before deployment, from the moment you choose them in your list. My infiltrating unit has the Infiltrate special rule ALWAYS, regardless of whether I actually infiltrate with them or not, and even after the initial deployment, they still have the infiltrate special rule.

In short, an infantry character that joins a unit of bikes does not get any special rules of the bikers. What you are suggesting about the skyhammer would also suggest that said character is allowed to jink just because its unit is allowed to. This is not the case. Notice also how said character IS actually benefiting from Feel no Pain in case said bikers have an icon of excess, because the Icon of excess specifically states that it confers the Fell no pain to the unit, and the IC is indeed a part of the unit.

Incorrect, the burden is to prove your contention has any relevance

Written rules are by definition a "word game". If you wish to not use language correctly, and conflate two terms together, thats your issue. Not mine.

So does a non-fearless IC BENEFIT from a unit with the Fearless rule? They do not get the rule conferred to them, however they still BENEFIT from it.

Under your perverse, rule ignoring baseless opinion, the IC would have to make a morale check if their unit lost combat.

Of course, that is nonsense.

So, now AGAIN it has been proven that gaining a benefit from something is NOT the same as having the thing conferred ipon you, woudl you like to give any actual RELEVANT rules? Or will you again hang your hang on the proven-wrong-20-times argument? If so, amrk your posts "HYWPI", as they are proven to not be the rules as written

Secondly, seriously. Reread the Skyhammer rules. Note which rules apply to the formationm and which rules are granted WHEN THE UNIT HITS THE TABLE. The relentless ability etc are granted when they hit the table. Not before.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On your second part, you are still wrong. A skyhammer formation has its special rules way before deployment, from the moment you choose them in your list. My infiltrating unit has the Infiltrate special rule ALWAYS, regardless of whether I actually infiltrate with them or not, and even after the initial deployment, they still have the infiltrate special rule.

Does the Devastator squad have the Relentless special rule, or does it have the "First the Fire, Then the Blade" special rule?

No one is claiming the IC has FTFTTB. However, the rule grants the Devastator squad (which the IC is a member of for all rules purposes) the Relentless special rule. Note that the special rule does not say "An Assault Squad with this rule..." nor does it say "Models in this formation have..." If the wording was similar to either of the above (and this is one thing GW is at least consistent on when minimizing benefits) then an attached IC would not gain Relentless nor would the Assault squad be able to charge with an attached IC.

 Happyjew wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On your second part, you are still wrong. A skyhammer formation has its special rules way before deployment, from the moment you choose them in your list. My infiltrating unit has the Infiltrate special rule ALWAYS, regardless of whether I actually infiltrate with them or not, and even after the initial deployment, they still have the infiltrate special rule.

Does the Devastator squad have the Relentless special rule, or does it have the "First the Fire, Then the Blade" special rule?

No one is claiming the IC has FTFTTB. However, the rule grants the Devastator squad (which the IC is a member of for all rules purposes) the Relentless special rule. Note that the special rule does not say "An Assault Squad with this rule..." nor does it say "Models in this formation have..." If the wording was similar to either of the above (and this is one thing GW is at least consistent on when minimizing benefits) then an attached IC would not gain Relentless nor would the Assault squad be able to charge with an attached IC.

The devas of the skyhammer have relentless on the turn they arrive. They have this ability even before they arrive. This is a special rule conferred to the devas of the skyhammer formation. Ie other devastators do not have it. The skyhammer formation unit composition does not include an IC. When you join an IC to a unit, it counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes. Including the rule that clearly states that the IC does not get the special rules its squad have. I literally cannot say this any more clear than this. If we can't agree on that then I'm afraid this is as far as this conversation goes.

The devas of the skyhammer have relentless on the turn they arrive. They have this ability even before they arrive. This is a special rule conferred to the devas of the skyhammer formation. Ie other devastators do not have it. The skyhammer formation unit composition does not include an IC. When you join an IC to a unit, it counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes. Including the rule that clearly states that the IC does not get the special rules its squad have. I literally cannot say this any more clear than this. If we can't agree on that then I'm afraid this is as far as this conversation goes.

How many times do you have to be told no one is suggesting the IC gets or has conferred to him the Formation Special rule. No one has said he has FFTTB or gains that rule at any time.

So do you have ANY relevant argument against the points we've raised?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, the burden is to prove your contention has any relevance

Written rules are by definition a "word game". If you wish to not use language correctly, and conflate two terms together, thats your issue. Not mine.

So does a non-fearless IC BENEFIT from a unit with the Fearless rule? They do not get the rule conferred to them, however they still BENEFIT from it.

Under your perverse, rule ignoring baseless opinion, the IC would have to make a morale check if their unit lost combat.

Of course, that is nonsense.

So, now AGAIN it has been proven that gaining a benefit from something is NOT the same as having the thing conferred ipon you, woudl you like to give any actual RELEVANT rules? Or will you again hang your hang on the proven-wrong-20-times argument? If so, amrk your posts "HYWPI", as they are proven to not be the rules as written

Secondly, seriously. Reread the Skyhammer rules. Note which rules apply to the formationm and which rules are granted WHEN THE UNIT HITS THE TABLE. The relentless ability etc are granted when they hit the table. Not before.

Jesus man, read the fething rulebook before you even post. Fearless Special rule SPECIFICALLY STATES that if at least one model has the rule then it applies sto everybody. This is a SPECIFIC STATEMENT and as such it agrees with the IC Special rule, ergo why your character gains fearless. The skyhammer does have jucking gak about specific statements. This is the simplest argument ever. You just have to open your eyes and see beyond the cheese you are dreaming about.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, the burden is to prove your contention has any relevance

Written rules are by definition a "word game". If you wish to not use language correctly, and conflate two terms together, thats your issue. Not mine.

So does a non-fearless IC BENEFIT from a unit with the Fearless rule? They do not get the rule conferred to them, however they still BENEFIT from it.

Under your perverse, rule ignoring baseless opinion, the IC would have to make a morale check if their unit lost combat.

Of course, that is nonsense.

So, now AGAIN it has been proven that gaining a benefit from something is NOT the same as having the thing conferred ipon you, woudl you like to give any actual RELEVANT rules? Or will you again hang your hang on the proven-wrong-20-times argument? If so, amrk your posts "HYWPI", as they are proven to not be the rules as written

Secondly, seriously. Reread the Skyhammer rules. Note which rules apply to the formationm and which rules are granted WHEN THE UNIT HITS THE TABLE. The relentless ability etc are granted when they hit the table. Not before.

Jesus man, read the fething rulebook before you even post. Fearless Special rule SPECIFICALLY STATES that if at least one model has the rule then it applies sto everybody. This is a SPECIFIC STATEMENT and as such it agrees with the IC Special rule, ergo why your character gains fearless. The skyhammer does have jucking gak about specific statements. This is the simplest argument ever. You just have to open your eyes and see beyond the cheese you are dreaming about.

A bit of pot and kettle. The IC does not gain the Fearless special rule. You are right the argument is simple:


Premise 1: The unit is the assault squad from the formation when the ICis not attached.  
Premise 2: Whilst attached the IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes.  

Conclusion 1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.  

Premise C1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.  
Premise 3: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad from the formation can assault.  

Conclusion 2: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad with IC attached can assault.  

Note how I NEVER state the IC gains or has the special rule. So do you have an argument against any of those premises. They are numbered so it is easy for you to tell me which is incorrect.

Konrax wrote:So if the ic joined a formation that wasn't decurion type, and that formations gained feel no pain or relentless, would the ic also get it?

As already stated, it depends. If they are specifically listed as Special Rules of the Formation, no more than an unMarked Chaos Sorcerer joining Plague Marines. These specific rules are usable only by the models who carry them.

However, if FNP and Relentless are granted because of another rule that grants it to the whole unit, then yes, it would, just as if the IC was joined to a squad that had a Narthecium.

It's not like we haven't specifically answered this several times already.

Konrax wrote:Many of you who are for the ics joining the sky hammer said no, then said it is completely different. Well it isn't, its the exact same premise you are all proposing but when you look at it like that it sounds wrong.

Please demonstrate how, "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound" or "Relentless models can shoot with Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapons" is the same premise as "When a unit that" or "the Assault Sqauds can charge"?

Please demonstrate how we stated or implied that a model-affecting rule would be as conferable as a unit-affecting rule like Stubborn, especially when we've stated numerous times otherwise?

Konrax wrote:Either way I would outright refuse to play against the this formation if someone tried to attach ics to the unit because that move in a pick up game is the definition of a TFG move.

Then I would refuse to allow your ICs to benefit from Stubborn, then units from benefiting from Zealot and Fearless from the IC, and so on. When a unit Goes To Ground, I would not allow you to grant a Cover Save to any IC.

This is the standard you are proposing as RAW.

topaxygouroun i wrote:Independent Character special rule: "When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the independent character, and the independent character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

Skyhammer formation consists of X and Y squads. A skyhammer formation does not have an IC in it. The Skyhammer formation gains some Special Rules which are described perfectly clear in their entry as being "Special rules". The IC you join in a skyhammer is a part of the unit. Hoerver, because it is not stated so in the Rule, the unit's Special rules do not carry over to the IC, as per the IC Special rule statement.

So, by your example, an IC would not be able to benefit from Stubborn. A Space Marine Chapter Master would not be able to fire Ordnance or Heavy Weapons and Charge while in a Centurion Squad because Slow and Purposeful would not affect him since he is not a Centurion Squad. A Crusader Squad would not gain the benefits of Zealot when joined by a Chaplain because they are not Chaplains.

Such is the train of your thought.

topaxygouroun i wrote:The devas of the skyhammer have relentless on the turn they arrive. They have this ability even before they arrive. This is a special rule conferred to the devas of the skyhammer formation. Ie other devastators do not have it. The skyhammer formation unit composition does not include an IC. When you join an IC to a unit, it counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes. Including the rule that clearly states that the IC does not get the special rules its squad have. I literally cannot say this any more clear than this. If we can't agree on that then I'm afraid this is as far as this conversation goes.

They do not have Relentless before they arrive, only the rule that gives it to them. The rule does not give them Relentless till they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. Admittedly, this one could be worded as providing the benefit better, but it still provides the UNIT Relentless, not the original members or possessors of the rule the benefit.

As we have pointed out, there is an exception to the exception. The rule is that ICs are part of the unit for all rules purposes. The exception is the Special Rules the models come with. The exception to that exception is provided with a reference to a USR. The example provided is Stubborn. Stubborn does not require ever model to have it (like Fleet and Deep Strike). It does not confer its benefit only to models that have it (like Counter-Attack). It does not state that "models with this rule" (like Feel No Pain and Relentless). It simply states that the UNIT gets to receive its benefit (like Fearless and First the Fire, Then the Blade).

So, either you are applying a double-standard, you truly cannot differentiate the difference between when a unit benefits from a rule instead of just the models, or like a certain dark-dentaled one, you cannot discern the difference between a model, a unit, and a datasheet.

But hey, if you just want to declare that's HYWPI because of balance and because other tournaments choose to balance it, I really have no argument against it, as that is an opinion-based matter, not a literary-based one.

Premise 1: The unit is the assault squad from the formation when the ICis not attached.
Premise 2: Whilst attached the IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes.

Conclusion 1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.

Premise C1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.
Premise 3: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad from the formation can assault.

Conclusion 2: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad with IC attached can assault.

Your error is on conclusion 1 and Premise 3. First of all, the IC can join the unit and indeed counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. That being said, the IC is not a member of the "Skyhammer anihilation force". It is part of a unit that also happens to come out of a formation. Could as well be part of any other detachment. The IC cannot be part of the formation because the formation specifically states which units consist the skyhammer anihilation force. Secondly, the assault squad does not get the right to assault out of deepstrike. Instead the assault squad, which is a part of the skyhammer anihilation force gains a Special Rule. The rule is called "First the fire, then the blade" and among other things it allows the assault squad from the formation to assault out of the pod. But this is a special rule. It is so because it is marked under a huge title that says "Special Rules". Because it is a special rule that applies to the formation, it does not apply to the IC because 1. The IC is not part of the formation and 2. The IC Special Rule forbids the IC to get any Special rules its joined unit have unless specifically stated so. But it is not stated, so the IC does not get it.

Our disagreement is in the part that the IC is as part of the assault unit, but it is not part of the formation.


Here is a similar example. Let's take the Living artillery node formation. It's 3 biovores, 1 exocrine and a unit of warriors. When the biovores and the exocrine are in synapse range of the warriors unit, they gain pinning and reroll scatter. Now let's say I attach a tyranid prime to the unit of warriors. Since it is an IC, it counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes. Still, the Tyranid Prime is not part of the formation, and if a biovore is in synapse range of the Prime but not the warriors in the unit then this biovore will not gain the benefits. It is exactly the same argument, although I admit far less game breaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So, by your example, an IC would not be able to benefit from Stubborn.

Read the Stubborn special rule. While you are at it, read the Shrouded special rule and the Fearless special rule. Then read the fleet special rule and see why the IC gets to benefit from the first 3 but not the last one.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Premise 1: The unit is the assault squad from the formation when the ICis not attached.
Premise 2: Whilst attached the IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes.

Conclusion 1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.

Premise C1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.
Premise 3: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad from the formation can assault.

Conclusion 2: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad with IC attached can assault.

Your error is on conclusion 1 and Premise 3. First of all, the IC can join the unit and indeed counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. That being said, the IC is not a member of the "Skyhammer anihilation force". It is part of a unit that also happens to come out of a formation. Could as well be part of any other detachment. The IC cannot be part of the formation because the formation specifically states which units consist the skyhammer anihilation force. Secondly, the assault squad does not get the right to assault out of deepstrike. Instead the assault squad, which is a part of the skyhammer anihilation force gains a Special Rule. The rule is called "First the fire, then the blade" and among other things it allows the assault squad from the formation to assault out of the pod. But this is a special rule. It is so because it is marked under a huge title that says "Special Rules". Because it is a special rule that applies to the formation, it does not apply to the IC because 1. The IC is not part of the formation and 2. The IC Special Rule forbids the IC to get any Special rules its joined unit have unless specifically stated so. But it is not stated, so the IC does not get it.

Our disagreement is in the part that the IC is as part of the assault unit, but it is not part of the formation.

Can you demonstrate how the Assault Squad is no longer part of the Formation when an IC joins it? Can you demonstrate how any of the Skyhammer rules differentiate the difference between models purchased with the Formation and models not? Can you demonstrate how one member of a unit can be selected out without specifically stating as such?

Please remember Tenet 1a, and provide rules to back up your statements.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Here is a similar example. Let's take the Living artillery node formation. It's 3 biovores, 1 exocrine and a unit of warriors. When the biovores and the exocrine are in synapse range of the warriors unit, they gain pinning and reroll scatter. Now let's say I attach a tyranid prime to the unit of warriors. Since it is an IC, it counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes. Still, the Tyranid Prime is not part of the formation, and if a biovore is in synapse range of the Prime but not the warriors in the unit then this biovore will not gain the benefits. It is exactly the same argument, although I admit far less game breaking.

Does the rule state within the Synapse Range of the Warriors unit, specifically?

If so, why is the Prime part of the unit when "Stubborn" is applied to it or "Objective Secured" being determined, but not with the Living Artillery Node Special Rule or "First the Fire, Then the Blade"?

It is to this is we mean by a double standard.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

So, by your example, an IC would not be able to benefit from Stubborn.

Read the Stubborn special rule. While you are at it, read the Shrouded special rule and the Fearless special rule. Then read the fleet special rule and see why the IC gets to benefit from the first 3 but not the last one.

Oh, you mean like the examples I gave?

Charistoph wrote:The rule is that ICs are part of the unit for all rules purposes. The exception is the Special Rules the models come with. The exception to that exception is provided with a reference to a USR. The example provided is Stubborn. Stubborn does not require ever model to have it (like Fleet and Deep Strike). Stubborn does not confer its benefit only to models that have it (like Counter-Attack). It does not state that "models with this rule" (like Feel No Pain and Relentless). It simply states that the UNIT gets to receive its benefit (like Fearless and First the Fire, Then the Blade).

Can you demonstrate how the Skyhammer rules match either Fleet, Counter-Attack, or Stubborn to prove your case?

HIWPI - and what makes sense to me

The unit has the special rule similar to if it had the special rule under its codex profile.

For example, imagine this rule was written into its codex profile similar to 'feel no pain'. Just because an IC joins the unit he doesn't get this ability.

In the codex profile it would have to say '*any character who joins the unit also gains feel no pain'

Sigh...

The assault squad is always a part of the formation. IC inside or not. Even with the IC inside, the assault squad is part of the formation. Ergo it has the fire/blade special rule. The Ic is not part of the formation, and therefore it does not have the fire/blade special rule, even if it IS part of the unit. This happens because the IC rule states that your character cannot get any special rules the unit has UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED. And here is the difference with fearless/stubborn/shrouded etc. All of these (otherwise) state that if one guy has the rule they all play along. The Skyhammer has no such provision, ergo it is prohibited from being passed along to the IC by the IC special rule. This is why there is no "double standard" as you state it. Instead we follow the rules to the letter (all the rules, mind you) and we get to our conclusions. Here are the conclusions:

Fearless/shrouded/stubborn SPECIFICALLY STATE that if one guy has it, then the whole unit acts accordingly. Because it is stated specifically, it is allowed to pass on to the IC, because of the IC rule wording. Fire/blade and living artillery node special rules do not have a specific statement on them attached. Therefore the IC Special rule is in effect and the IC (either marine or tyranid) gets screwed, even if they are part of the unit for all rules purposes. Mind you that the IC Special Rule is a part of "all rules purposes". There is no way you can go around the IC Special rule, it is crystal clear. And all your assumptions conveniently put the IC rule aside. You cannot ignore the IC special rule, therefore you cannot ignore its implications.

Your error is on conclusion 1 and Premise 3. First of all, the IC can join the unit and indeed counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. That being said, the IC is not a member of the "Skyhammer anihilation force". It is part of a unit that also happens to come out of a formation

So conclusion 1 is wrong yet you go on to say it is correct as the underlined is the same as conclusion 1. So which is it?

Secondly, the assault squad does not get the right to assault out of deepstrike. Instead the assault squad, which is a part of the skyhammer anihilation force gains a Special Rule. The rule is called "First the fire, then the blade" and among other things it allows the assault squad from the formation to assault out of the pod. But this is a special rule. It is so because it is marked under a huge title that says "Special Rules". Because it is a special rule that applies to the formation, it does not apply to the IC because 1. The IC is not part of the formation and 2. The IC Special Rule forbids the IC to get any Special rules its joined unit have unless specifically stated so. But it is not stated, so the IC does not get it.

So premise 3 is lifted straight from First Fire then the Blade. So saying the special rule is wrong is not RaW. I never said the special rule is conferred to the IC it has an effect on the Assault Squad from the formation the IC is a normal member of that squad.

Our disagreement is in the part that the IC is as part of the assault unit, but it is not part of the formation.

So you believe the IC is part of the formation or not part of the squad? Or are you again inventing things to argue against, because my argument has him as part of the Assault Squad but not part of the formation.

Here is a similar example. Let's take the Living artillery node formation. It's 3 biovores, 1 exocrine and a unit of warriors. When the biovores and the exocrine are in synapse range of the warriors unit, they gain pinning and reroll scatter. Now let's say I attach a tyranid prime to the unit of warriors. Since it is an IC, it counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes. Still, the Tyranid Prime is not part of the formation, and if a biovore is in synapse range of the Prime but not the warriors in the unit then this biovore will not gain the benefits. It is exactly the same argument, although I admit far less game breaking.

In that example the Biovore would receive the benefit if the trigger is being in synapse range of the Warriors as the Prime is part of the warrior unit. So for example say Pedro Kantor joins a tactical squad from a demi company that tac squad still has ObSec and if Pedro is the only member of the unit within 3" of the objective the unit would still control that objective even if a nonObSec unit was contesting it. These are unit level rules interactions and as such it doesn't matter that Pedro doesn't have ObSec. For the same reasons in this case it doesn't matter the IC doesn't have First Fire then the Blade.

Dude it is simple.
1. The IC is a part of the assault squad.
2. The IC is not part of the formation.
3. The assault squad can pod-assault because the assault squad is part of the formation.
4. The IC cannot pod-assault because it is NOT part of the formation and it does not have the fire/blade rule.

Is this clear enough for you?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Dude it is simple.
1. The IC is a part of the assault squad.
2. The IC is not part of the formation.
3. The assault squad can pod-assault because the assault squad is part of the formation.
4. The IC cannot pod-assault because it is NOT part of the formation and it does not have the fire/blade rule.

Is this clear enough for you?

That disagrees with what the rules state though. The rules state the Assault Squad can assault and the rules state the IC is a normal me,amber of the squad. Do you now accept that Premise 3 and Conclusion 1 are correct (as you've already stated conclusion 1 and premise 3 is literally the rules from FFTTB). So which of my Premises are incorrect?

The rules never state the ic is part of the assault squad. It states it is part of a unit. That is not the same thing. Your argument would hold more substance if it didn't consist of adding in words that don't exist in the rules. Or making up rules that don't exist. Please someone show me the page in the rule book were it defines how a model uses or benefits from special rules but never actually has them. You can't just use special rules because you feel like it. It needs to be gained. Whether as part of a unit that gains the rule or by its own or specially allowed through the rule itself. Your idea of benefiting from rules is neither defined or stated anywhere in the rule book and is just made up none sense.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The assault squad is always a part of the formation. IC inside or not. Even with the IC inside, the assault squad is part of the formation. Ergo it has the fire/blade special rule. The Ic is not part of the formation, and therefore it does not have the fire/blade special rule, even if it IS part of the unit. This happens because the IC rule states that your character cannot get any special rules the unit has UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED. And here is the difference with fearless/stubborn/shrouded etc. All of these (otherwise) state that if one guy has the rule they all play along. The Skyhammer has no such provision, ergo it is prohibited from being passed along to the IC by the IC special rule. This is why there is no "double standard" as you state it. Instead we follow the rules to the letter (all the rules, mind you) and we get to our conclusions. Here are the conclusions:

You are incorrect on your conclusions.

You need to demonstrate how not being a model in the original Formation is different than being a not being a model in the original unit. You are applying a double standard here.

None of those rules state "if one guy as the rule they all play along", they say, "if the unit has one guy with the rule, the unit gets to do this". Every model that makes up an Assault Squad or Devastator Squad has the rule, so that is not a problem. The only time it is a problem, is when the IC's going to stop being part of the Assault Squad in the next Phase anyway. If you are implying that there is a minimum involved, then please provide the reference that states that Stubborn changes the minimum.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Fearless/shrouded/stubborn SPECIFICALLY STATE that if one guy has it, then the whole unit acts accordingly. Because it is stated specifically, it is allowed to pass on to the IC, because of the IC rule wording. Fire/blade and living artillery node special rules do not have a specific statement on them attached. Therefore the IC Special rule is in effect and the IC (either marine or tyranid) gets screwed, even if they are part of the unit for all rules purposes. Mind you that the IC Special Rule is a part of "all rules purposes". There is no way you can go around the IC Special rule, it is crystal clear. And all your assumptions conveniently put the IC rule aside. You cannot ignore the IC special rule, therefore you cannot ignore its implications.

We do not ignore the IC rules. We just use all of them instead of cherry-picking the ones we want to exclude.

Stubborn, Fearless, and Shrouded NEVER state that an Independent Character is included. EVER. Those two words are never stated. The reason why that "one model" statement exists is that the IC's unit identity is subsumed in to the unit they join. Without it, a Fearless IC would not be able to allow his unit to automatically pass Morale Checks. It is so that one IC model who is NOT part of the original unit identity can pass it on to the rest of his unit. This is why Counter-Attack includes that statement, even though models without it will not benefit. Because the IC's unit identity is lost and the IC's personal unit would not be charged.

Go back and review my example from the Destroyer Cult to understand the difference in what I mean.