Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey everyone,

If I'm putting together a Sentinels of Terra army and including Lysander as the warlord, does he get the "Iron Resolve" warlord trait as stated in the new C:SM, or does he still get "Champion of Humanity" as stated in SoT (Champion of Humanity is now changed to be the same as his "Icon of Obstinacy" rule, so he would effectively have no warlord trait)

Thanks,

Lynkon

My initial reaction was to say I would allow you Iron Resolve... However both rules have changed rather radically, and I think you are missing the difference between icon and champion.

They are not the same. Icon is Imp-fist only; champion is all IOM. While you may play an imp-fist only army, that upgrade from imp-fists to every battle brother you could have is huge. A Small basic CAD of SoT-imps as primary with a few detatchments of other IOM armies make that trait worth more than the model's weight in diamonds.

That said, if you bring a pure scions list to me and ask for resolve I would absolutely allow that in a HIWPI.

He gets the codex space marine warlord trait.
New codex trumps old codex and therefore the supplement.

New codex trumps old codex, but not the supplement.

Supplement lists a specific trait(yes it was the trait he came with in the old codex), and that trait still exists.

Supplement is current and supplement trumps codex. If you think the supplement does not trump the codex then nothing in the supplement works at all; its entire existence is to change and modify the codex rules.

Unfortunately, I think I agree with Kommisar Kel on this. I suppose that if the warlord trait listed in the supplement no longer existed, then the new Iron Resolve would apply, however it still does, so it still applies as per the books instruction.

I see what you are saying regarding the Champion of Humanity applying to all IoM armies. I suppose if you play Sentinels of Terra with something like IG, it would mean a lot, however since Lysander is designed to be on the vanguard front of the army, getting stuck in as soon as he can, he's not likely to be close enough to the rank and file to really have an effect. On another, rear guard-type warlord, I get it, but in this case I think "the models weight in diamonds" is a bit of a stretch. Weight in pudding? maybe?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
My initial reaction was to say I would allow you Iron Resolve... However both rules have changed rather radically, and I think you are missing the difference between icon and champion.

They are not the same. Icon is Imp-fist only; champion is all IOM. While you may play an imp-fist only army, that upgrade from imp-fists to every battle brother you could have is huge. A Small basic CAD of SoT-imps as primary with a few detatchments of other IOM armies make that trait worth more than the model's weight in diamonds.

That said, if you bring a pure scions list to me and ask for resolve I would absolutely allow that in a HIWPI.

I have none of my rulesbooks with me....

what does this Icon thing do that is so good???? What's the benefit????? What is Iron Resolve?

( I really hope it's not THAT good, I have been thinking of redoing my imp fists and don't really need another project lol )

Instead of the old Iron fists only, it is all IoM units, so skittari, cult mech, guard, sisters, and inquisition all benefit from the trait along with all marines faction and chapters.

Old is fist-only; new is any loyalist, basically.

Which is fantastic, as there are several close-range Imperial units (even in the IG!) that would benefit from his rule, including vanguard, punchy Kastelans, demo-vets, battle sisters, and henchman squads (just to include some examples from non-marine codices).

Does anything prevent you from bringing a Cad from CDM IF and an allied detachment from SoT? Or vice versa? You could then pick which version of Lysander you want.....

Since Lysander is Unique you can only include one of him. Additionally your Warlord would have to be from a different Faction (or a different Chapter).

Successor chapters count as their founding chapters for ally purposes so you are not allowed to take them as allied detachment. The same way you can't ally Iron Hands and Clan Raukaan

General Hobbs wrote:


Does anything prevent you from bringing a Cad from CDM IF and an allied detachment from SoT? Or vice versa? You could then pick which version of Lysander you want.....

Yes you can do that, depending on whether you meant to capitalize "allied detatchment " . You can only have 1 lysander as stated above, but he can come from either list source(and since you gave to have an HQ for both it is a simple swap)

 danyboy wrote:
Successor chapters count as their founding chapters for ally purposes so you are not allowed to take them as allied detachment. The same way you can't ally Iron Hands and Clan Raukaan

I thought that rule applied only to successor chapters with the same Chapter Tactics.

General Hobbs wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Successor chapters count as their founding chapters for ally purposes so you are not allowed to take them as allied detachment. The same way you can't ally Iron Hands and Clan Raukaan

I thought that rule applied only to successor chapters with the same Chapter Tactics.

Yes you are correct, but:
Clan Raukaan Supplement (old version) states that they may use only Iron Hands CT, so SM Iron Hands and SM Clan Raukaan cannot be taken as Allied Detachment.
Sentinels of Terra Supplement (old version) states that models with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) may change Bolter Drill to Close Ranged Bolter Drill.
It is still Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) so you are not allowed to take Imperial Fists from the main book as Allied Detachment.

If it has been changed in updated version of supplements please correct me.

General Hobbs wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Successor chapters count as their founding chapters for ally purposes so you are not allowed to take them as allied detachment. The same way you can't ally Iron Hands and Clan Raukaan

I thought that rule applied only to successor chapters with the same Chapter Tactics.

No, it applies to any single chapter.

Chapter is defined by chapter tactics; so in my case I field sons of Medusa(iron hands successor) which have the Iron Hands CT, i cannot have an Allied detatchment of Iron Hands or Clan Raukaan because the have the same CT and therefore are the same Chapter per the CT rules(which is also where you find the rule that lets you take an AD of a different chapter)

So SoT, Iron Hands regular, and Crimson Fists are all technically the same Chapter(only reason Black Templars are not the same Chapter, even though they are IH successors, is that they have their own CTs)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Successor chapters count as their founding chapters for ally purposes so you are not allowed to take them as allied detachment. The same way you can't ally Iron Hands and Clan Raukaan

I thought that rule applied only to successor chapters with the same Chapter Tactics.

No, it applies to any single chapter.

Chapter is defined by chapter tactics; so in my case I field sons of Medusa(iron hands successor) which have the Iron Hands CT, i cannot have an Allied detatchment of Iron Hands or Clan Raukaan because the have the same CT and therefore are the same Chapter per the CT rules(which is also where you find the rule that lets you take an AD of a different chapter)

So SoT, IMPERIAL FISTS regular, and Crimson Fists are all technically the same Chapter(only reason Black Templars are not the same Chapter, even though they are IH successors, is that they have their own CTs)

Fixed