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Looking to play Swarmy Nids though I know they don't win a lot, but I'm curious what your favorite tactics and bugs are for keeping a large swarm of non-Synapse Creatures under control. From my very limited knowledge of looking over the Codex, it seems Zoanthropes might be one fo the best options. But, I'd definitely like to know your opinion.

Thanks in advance!

SG

For a swarm style trygon primes come in handy for both their tunnel and their synapse so I feel they are a must in endless swarm type lists. Tervigons and zoanthropes also are can be key. Malanthropes providing shroaded and synapse are fantastic I've found.

skycapt44 wrote:
For a swarm style trygon primes come in handy for both their tunnel and their synapse so I feel they are a must in endless swarm type lists. Tervigons and zoanthropes also are can be key. Malanthropes providing shroaded and synapse are fantastic I've found.

Thanks for the Trygon Prime tunneling info. I had missed that in the Codex. As far as Malanthropes go, if I'm not mistaken, they only cost ten points less than a Zoanthrope and Venomthrope. I know every point counts in 40K, but for 10 more points, you give your opponent another target as well as Synapse and Shrouded. Plus, for less than the monetary cost of two Malanthropes (two total models), you can have three Zoanthropes and three Venomthropes (six total models). So, for the very small point difference, the very large monetary difference, and the seeming advantage of having two targets on the field, I don't see the big advantage of the Malathrope over the Zoanthrope + Venomthrope combo.

Please correct me if I'm missing something big here (which I very easily could be).

Thanks

SG

Malanthropes, malanthropes and malanthropes. And Flyrants of course.

You don't need a trygon prime to get tunnels, you can have a normal trygon for that. Too expensive though.

ServiceGames wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
For a swarm style trygon primes come in handy for both their tunnel and their synapse so I feel they are a must in endless swarm type lists. Tervigons and zoanthropes also are can be key. Malanthropes providing shroaded and synapse are fantastic I've found.

Thanks for the Trygon Prime tunneling info. I had missed that in the Codex. As far as Malanthropes go, if I'm not mistaken, they only cost ten points less than a Zoanthrope and Venomthrope. I know every point counts in 40K, but for 10 more points, you give your opponent another target as well as Synapse and Shrouded. Plus, for less than the monetary cost of two Malanthropes (two total models), you can have three Zoanthropes and three Venomthropes (six total models). So, for the very small point difference, the very large monetary difference, and the seeming advantage of having two targets on the field, I don't see the big advantage of the Malathrope over the Zoanthrope + Venomthrope combo.

Please correct me if I'm missing something big here (which I very easily could be).

Thanks

SG

Malanthropes are t5 which is a big deal for instant death purposes.

There's a few reasons Malanthropes are better:

- They have a bigger base than either a Venom or a Zoan = bigger bubbles of Shrouded and Synapse.
- They have the same Wounds as both the Zoan and the Venom combined, better T (as above a big deal for ID), and a 3+ armour save, which is also excellent for survivability.
- They're actually good in CC, especially with their character snaring ability.
- If you can get it off, the Pref enemy bubble is fantastic.
- It only takes up 1 Elite slot as opposed to 2, meaning you can have additional Zoans/Venoms, etc.
- Perhaps most importantly, it's both Shrouded and Synapse on ONE model - meaning you can stick it in a building for a HUGE bubble of both these effects, which is invaluable. It also doesn't mind being catapulted to the frontlines via an Escape Hatch.

The main benefit of Venoms is they're easier to hide, Zoans' is their Warp charges. Being able to split the two up isn't all that great, as you have to babysit Venoms with synapse anyway. So it's not wholly clear cut, but in a swarm list a Malanthrope or even two can be very valuable.

I have a fair bit of experience with Endless Swarm (to varying effect) and the main thing I'd try and impress on you is that you need a LOT of synapse for a list like that. More than you'd initially think. My list would typically have 2 Flyrants, a Malanthrope, 2 Zoans, the Warriors from Endless, and a Trygon Prime at around 1500 - basically I'd say one source per 250 points.

As for the Trygon comments, if running Endless Swarm they're really helpful, if not, I wouldn't bother. As for Trygon Primes, the thing with them is that you have really really good advance synapse in Flyrants generally. Moreover, a Trygon is a huge target regardless of the Prime status, and it doesn't get any harder to kill when you upgrade it. A swarm deals in threat overload - I'd advise splitting your synapse up elsewhere, as a Trygon+Zoan is only 10 pts more than a Trygon Prime. If you need advance synapse, Outflanking Tervis, Escape Hatch Malanthropes and even maybe a unit of deepstriking Shrikes is a good bet.

Honestly for horde lists, having the 3 brood of Zoanthrope to increase the synapse foot print and the xtra warp charges for dominion makes it often worth foregoing the venom and Malanthropes in the elite slot.

If you have the points and wish to forego the warp charges, 3 Mal's is a very nice option.

1 brood of venomthropes, 1 brood of zoanthropes, a unit of warriors and 2 tyrants of whatever configuration should work fine. A Trygon Prime is a great option too.

That's a lot of synapse to have to take out. If you're going to swarm, you should truly swarm. Do not spread out your forces across the table. Swarm deployments work optimally when your opponent deploys first. Then you simply pick the weakest side of the table and literally deploy 100% of your forces in a blob on that side of the table.

Overwhelm one side. So much overlapping synapse and then run up the flank. Opponent's weak side will be quickly overwhelmed. They'll need 2 turns to begin moving units to support the overloaded flank, by 2nd turn it should be too late

 disdamn wrote:
1 brood of venomthropes, 1 brood of zoanthropes, a unit of warriors and 2 tyrants of whatever configuration should work fine. A Trygon Prime is a great option too.

That's a lot of synapse to have to take out. If you're going to swarm, you should truly swarm. Do not spread out your forces across the table. Swarm deployments work optimally when your opponent deploys first. Then you simply pick the weakest side of the table and literally deploy 100% of your forces in a blob on that side of the table.

Overwhelm one side. So much overlapping synapse and then run up the flank. Opponent's weak side will be quickly overwhelmed. They'll need 2 turns to begin moving units to support the overloaded flank, by 2nd turn it should be too late

That is really not much synapse to take out. Flyrants are only good for advanced synapse till they have to leave the board. Footrants are more reliable, but die fast.

A sinlge brood of Zoan are durable but don't provide great coverage for the cost. 3 Brood of 1 is abit more advantageous. As shooting a solo almost always causes overkill when it dies thus reducing opponents effective shooting for the turn. For the cost of a brood you get 3 synapse anchors and 3 dominions for a 36 by 108 zone of synapse.

Warriors are questionable in a swarm list as they take up a valuable body count slot. For swarms to work you need as many bodies as you can get, so while Warriors are a good synapse point, they are less durable than 30 fearless gaunts/gants. Shrikes are a better choice for the role being Fast attack and more mobile. Unless you are planning to run 45-90 gargoyles, in which case the argument is reversed.

Trygon Primes are a weird call. If you are using Endless Swarm, they can be an invaluable point of forward synapse. As just a Synapse body, you just don't get much that Tyrant with Tyrant guard can't provide cheaper.

Trevigon is the wild card in the list. For any non-termigant it is an excellent synapse anchor: average durablity, Psycher, and MC. In a swarm whether HQ or Troop, she can provide a few hundred more points worth of bodies at the risk of Synaptic backlash killing any Termigant brood in 12 inches. So keeping Dominion up and termigant broods outside 12" is very important.

Tervigons have their place even in a termagant heavy list, though - because of the bubble of counter-attack.

They also come with a wild-card; their party piece is a T6, 6 wound monster with Objective Secured. Surrounded by lots of little mobs of bugs, they can be hell to kick off an objective.

The only synapse I'm not a massive fan of is the malaceptor. I can't really see a use for it that other things can't do better (aside possibly from being a compulsory choice in a neural node formation).

I actually like Warriors in swarms. Two broods of four with Deathspitters and a Venom Cannon. Perfectly fine for nearly any swarm size. Throw in one brood of two Zoas, a Malanthrope and if you're really hurting, Skytyrant Formation for added melee and an 18" bubble without taking away Flyrant slots. If you need more Synapse than that then something is wrong with how you're placing your army on the table.

My local store is very laid back. I think all actual GW stores are as there are no tournaments held there. They have events, but not tournaments. So, playing an AoS game with just one model for fun has happened a few times.

That said, they are usually very laid back about most things. Making exceptions to rules that players have agreed on (as GW intended) is very much allowed and accepted. Proxying units is also something that really shouldn't be a problem. Like proxying Balthasar for Azrael in Dark Angels would be something I would fully expect to see there (if I wasn't the only DA player there).

So, proxying Venomthropes with some extra bits thrown in to make them look a little more like Malanthropes (even if they aren't as big) probably wouldn't be aproblem.

SG

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I actually like Warriors in swarms. Two broods of four with Deathspitters and a Venom Cannon. Perfectly fine for nearly any swarm size. Throw in one brood of two Zoas, a Malanthrope and if you're really hurting, Skytyrant Formation for added melee and an 18" bubble without taking away Flyrant slots. If you need more Synapse than that then something is wrong with how you're placing your army on the table.

Or you are facing DE, Tau, or Eldar that can wipe that Synapse off the board in 2 turns of shooting. Still not a bad synapse selection, Hive Mind Node could also sub in for Skytrant in swarm lists.

Hive Mind Node? Do you mean Tyrant Node? Because I use the Tyrant Node in nearly every game and in anything even close to a competitive list, it's a waste of points. Not worth the trouble to bring except for fluff reasons. WAY too expensive for almost no gain.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Hive Mind Node? Do you mean Tyrant Node? Because I use the Tyrant Node in nearly every game and in anything even close to a competitive list, it's a waste of points. Not worth the trouble to bring except for fluff reasons. WAY too expensive for almost no gain.

In anything but a swarm list, I would completely agree. However, I am already bringing the units anyway, so it frees up a slot in both the elite and the HQ. The Node unlike almost every other formation is all completely independent units, so I can stick them were they are need or work best. Like an 18/24" synapse anchor Tyrant at the back of the swarm with an HVC or strangler were it is frequently ignored for the more up close threats like dakkafex, Flyrant, and gargoyles. The TG can be attached, or stuck up front as effective melee shock units while the VT's do what they do best.

barnowl wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
1 brood of venomthropes, 1 brood of zoanthropes, a unit of warriors and 2 tyrants of whatever configuration should work fine. A Trygon Prime is a great option too.

That's a lot of synapse to have to take out. If you're going to swarm, you should truly swarm. Do not spread out your forces across the table. Swarm deployments work optimally when your opponent deploys first. Then you simply pick the weakest side of the table and literally deploy 100% of your forces in a blob on that side of the table.

Overwhelm one side. So much overlapping synapse and then run up the flank. Opponent's weak side will be quickly overwhelmed. They'll need 2 turns to begin moving units to support the overloaded flank, by 2nd turn it should be too late

That is really not much synapse to take out. Flyrants are only good for advanced synapse till they have to leave the board. Footrants are more reliable, but die fast.

A sinlge brood of Zoan are durable but don't provide great coverage for the cost. 3 Brood of 1 is abit more advantageous. As shooting a solo almost always causes overkill when it dies thus reducing opponents effective shooting for the turn. For the cost of a brood you get 3 synapse anchors and 3 dominions for a 36 by 108 zone of synapse.

Warriors are questionable in a swarm list as they take up a valuable body count slot. For swarms to work you need as many bodies as you can get, so while Warriors are a good synapse point, they are less durable than 30 fearless gaunts/gants. Shrikes are a better choice for the role being Fast attack and more mobile. Unless you are planning to run 45-90 gargoyles, in which case the argument is reversed.

Trygon Primes are a weird call. If you are using Endless Swarm, they can be an invaluable point of forward synapse. As just a Synapse body, you just don't get much that Tyrant with Tyrant guard can't provide cheaper.

Trevigon is the wild card in the list. For any non-termigant it is an excellent synapse anchor: average durablity, Psycher, and MC. In a swarm whether HQ or Troop, she can provide a few hundred more points worth of bodies at the risk of Synaptic backlash killing any Termigant brood in 12 inches. So keeping Dominion up and termigant broods outside 12" is very important.

the OP was looking to play "swarmy nids" which is not necessarily Endless Swarm. And I don't know how you play but when I play with my list I rarely loose any significant synapse, and certainly not enough to cause Instictive Behaviour roles. So I would qualify to say if you play my way, my suggestion is more than enough synapse. If you play your way, my suggestion is not enough synapse.

 disdamn wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
1 brood of venomthropes, 1 brood of zoanthropes, a unit of warriors and 2 tyrants of whatever configuration should work fine. A Trygon Prime is a great option too.

That's a lot of synapse to have to take out. If you're going to swarm, you should truly swarm. Do not spread out your forces across the table. Swarm deployments work optimally when your opponent deploys first. Then you simply pick the weakest side of the table and literally deploy 100% of your forces in a blob on that side of the table.

Overwhelm one side. So much overlapping synapse and then run up the flank. Opponent's weak side will be quickly overwhelmed. They'll need 2 turns to begin moving units to support the overloaded flank, by 2nd turn it should be too late

That is really not much synapse to take out. Flyrants are only good for advanced synapse till they have to leave the board. Footrants are more reliable, but die fast.

A sinlge brood of Zoan are durable but don't provide great coverage for the cost. 3 Brood of 1 is abit more advantageous. As shooting a solo almost always causes overkill when it dies thus reducing opponents effective shooting for the turn. For the cost of a brood you get 3 synapse anchors and 3 dominions for a 36 by 108 zone of synapse.

Warriors are questionable in a swarm list as they take up a valuable body count slot. For swarms to work you need as many bodies as you can get, so while Warriors are a good synapse point, they are less durable than 30 fearless gaunts/gants. Shrikes are a better choice for the role being Fast attack and more mobile. Unless you are planning to run 45-90 gargoyles, in which case the argument is reversed.

Trygon Primes are a weird call. If you are using Endless Swarm, they can be an invaluable point of forward synapse. As just a Synapse body, you just don't get much that Tyrant with Tyrant guard can't provide cheaper.

Trevigon is the wild card in the list. For any non-termigant it is an excellent synapse anchor: average durablity, Psycher, and MC. In a swarm whether HQ or Troop, she can provide a few hundred more points worth of bodies at the risk of Synaptic backlash killing any Termigant brood in 12 inches. So keeping Dominion up and termigant broods outside 12" is very important.

the OP was looking to play "swarmy nids" which is not necessarily Endless Swarm. And I don't know how you play but when I play with my list I rarely loose any significant synapse, and certainly not enough to cause Instictive Behaviour roles. So I would qualify to say if you play my way, my suggestion is more than enough synapse. If you play your way, my suggestion is not enough synapse.

I never run Endless Swarm myself, I need the objective secured to much so use large broods and maxed out troops. In our local Meta Synapse gets targeted ahead of about everything else, and since Nids' don't have tanks, all that hvy armor supression gets pointed at Synapse.

1) Malanthrope
2) Malanthrope in bastion
3) two malanthropes, one inside a bastion and one outside a bastion
3) flyrants