Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If we are assigning saves and FNP to vehicles, why not just give them a toughness value as well?

The toughness could be a compromise between all the armor values, like 8 or 9 for the LRBT, or it could just be the equivalent to the highest armour, like 10? We could come up with regular-profile style stats for every tank in the game I believe.

Because vehicles really dont feel pain at all.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If we are assigning saves and FNP to vehicles, why not just give them a toughness value as well?

The toughness could be a compromise between all the armor values, like 8 or 9 for the LRBT, or it could just be the equivalent to the highest armour, like 10? We could come up with regular-profile style stats for every tank in the game I believe.

You'll have to take into consideration powers that reduce or test against Toughness. This assumes they retain Hull Points or Poison and similar abilities will need to explicitly prohibit vehicle interactions. Also, the way Toughness works makes it possible to glance things 1 value higher than you normally can. If a walker with AV12 were made T8 so that S8 weapons glance it on 4s, then a S7 glances on 5s, and a S6 glances on 6s. But a S5 -also- glances on 6s. Normally an S5 weapon would be unable to harm an AV12 walker unless it had melta or armourbane.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If we are assigning saves and FNP to vehicles, why not just give them a toughness value as well?

The toughness could be a compromise between all the armor values, like 8 or 9 for the LRBT, or it could just be the equivalent to the highest armour, like 10? We could come up with regular-profile style stats for every tank in the game I believe.

You'll have to take into consideration powers that reduce or test against Toughness. This assumes they retain Hull Points or Poison and similar abilities will need to explicitly prohibit vehicle interactions. Also, the way Toughness works makes it possible to glance things 1 value higher than you normally can. If a walker with AV12 were made T8 so that S8 weapons glance it on 4s, then a S7 glances on 5s, and a S6 glances on 6s. But a S5 -also- glances on 6s. Normally an S5 weapon would be unable to harm an AV12 walker unless it had melta or armourbane.

Right, and even -despite- that difference between armor and toughness, MCs are still tougher. With saves, FNP, and the shooting capability of MC's, vehicles would be tougher and be more easily able to utilize their firepower on the move.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, and even -despite- that difference between armor and toughness, MCs are still tougher. With saves, FNP, and the shooting capability of MC's, vehicles would be tougher and be more easily able to utilize their firepower on the move.

Ah, I didn't think you were also getting rid of penetrating hits. Because those are the real reason vehicles die so easily. If a Land Raider was simply a Toughness 10 monstrous creature with 4 wounds, it would be glanced easily but never explode. It'd also be vulnerable to Psychic Shriek, Instant Death, etc. Lots to consider.

Currently Meltas are used against tanks because of double dice on penetration and 1-in-3 chance to explode. If you remove those weaknesses, it will need a new purpose because S8 AP1 just isn't all that great on its own. Lascannons would become the new meta.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, and even -despite- that difference between armor and toughness, MCs are still tougher. With saves, FNP, and the shooting capability of MC's, vehicles would be tougher and be more easily able to utilize their firepower on the move.

Ah, I didn't think you were also getting rid of penetrating hits. Because those are the real reason vehicles die so easily. If a Land Raider was simply a Toughness 10 monstrous creature with 4 wounds, it would be glanced easily but never explode. It'd also be vulnerable to Psychic Shriek, Instant Death, etc. Lots to consider.

Currently Meltas are used against tanks because of double dice on penetration and 1-in-3 chance to explode. If you remove those weaknesses, it will need a new purpose because S8 AP1 just isn't all that great on its own. Lascannons would become the new meta.

Right, which is fine. Currently, vehicles are not as tough as MCs, so making them vulnerable to all the things MCs are vulnerable to but removing the Damage Chart makes them tougher, which is what the goal of this thread is.

As for melta, just give it the Armorbane rule, and have Armorbane work like Fleshbane but only on units with Unit Type (Monstrous Creature, Vehicle) and have Vehicle be a unit type identifier like Fast which makes it vulnerable to Haywire instead of Poison and Armorbane instead of Fleshbane.

I do have a few related thoughts that kinda all fit together here:

Vehicles would be immune to the "Instant Death" special rule, however, all AP1 weapons, on rolling a 6 to wound, would inflict an additional wound (on that model only, exactly like the extra wounds from D weapons). Also, while all vehicles would be T6 or greater under this proposed system, I'd replace the current "doubled out" rule with "a weapon with S greater than or equal to double the target's T causes 2 wounds. Feel No Pain cannot be used against double-toughness attacks and Reanimation Protocol rolls receive a -1 penalty."

Lance: A weapon with the Lance special rule treats all toughness values greater than 8 as 8.

Melta: A weapon with the Melta special rule gains the Armourbane special rule when fired at half or less of its maximum range.

Armourbane: A weapon with the Armourbane special rule always wounds on a 2+ against models with the Vehicle special rule. Additionally, Armourbane weapons cause an additional wound on a to-wound roll of 6 when used against vehicles. This extra wound stacks with all other sources of extra wounds (Destroyer, AP1, etc)

This way, Meltas could score up to 3 wounds in a single shot, potentially 4 wounds if you somehow had a T4 vehicle (which might be possible with various Toughness debuffs, but I think vehicles should be immune to most of these.)

Any existing effects that say that vehicles are immune, they would remain immune to. I'm not sure about things like psychic shriek, phantasm grenade launchers, etc. Effects that wound on Leadership (or based on the outcome of Leadership tests) probably shouldn't affect vehicles because they don't generally have Ld scores, but I think this can be argued either way.