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So, we were having a discussion at my group yesterday, and we came to the conclusion that builds where large amounts of points are invested in Large-based ships (the so-called "Fat" lists), are dead. Why? Because of Twin Laser Turrets. With their low agility, Large ships reliably pick up damage from each shot. Given the maximum 4 TLT in a list, any large ship can be taken out in two turns, barring bad attack rolls. IG88, with Access to 3 Agility and autothrusters, may last a little longer. however, all the evade tokens, C3P0 and other shenanigans do not help against waves of chip damage.

What are your thoughts? Are large ships dead?

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Are large ships dead?

No.

No.

I don't think they are, given that they tend to have back up, and will generally shoot before the TLT, assuming 4 in a squad. They be slightly squishier, but not enough for them to be considered dead

I dont see why TLT would render large ships obsolete, many of the large based ships are already agility 1 or 0, so any firepower 3 ship is probably going to average out to doing roughly the same amount of damage each turn as a ship equipped with one.

Besides, low PS pilots make it easy to stay in the doughnut hole, and 4 dice make a mess of most of the popular TLT platforms in short order.

The change to how MOV is calculated is a bigger nerf to Fat Big Ships in a competitive setting.

TLT's are good against basically everything, but I would argue the exact opposite with regard to their effectiveness against big ships. They are particularly efficient against high-agility ships (since all you need to do is sneak in the one hit successful hit, and it strips tokens), and less efficient against low-agility ships (where the extra attack dice are wasted).

In the OP's case, IG-88 is a pretty bad matchup against TLT spam. Autothrusters do help a lot, but the aggressor is otherwise relying on tokens and defense dice to make up for their low total health. If you can't manage to get into range 1 of the Y-Wings or HWKs, you're going to lose an IG every two turns or so.

In the case of C3P0, TLT's are basically a hard counter. The Falcon+C3P0 build is going to become much more rare. And good riddance.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Besides, low PS pilots make it easy to stay in the doughnut hole, and 4 dice make a mess of most of the popular TLT platforms in short order.

I'm sure that was FFG's line of thought when they designed the TLT. The concern I have is that your squad gets shot to hell during the approach. It's very difficult to maneuver from just outside of range 3 into range 1 without there being an intervening turn where you're getting shot up by the TLT swarm. I've been doing okay with my TIE Advanced's against Ywing+HWK swarms, but it's dicey. I'm usually losing a ship during the approach, and then have to basically play 66pts vs 100pts and hope I can keep my ships in their doughnut hole. The TLT swarm player does have the option of just scattering their swarm.

The Decimator would be better off vs TLT swarms since it wouldn't load up on critical hits.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I dont see why TLT would render large ships obsolete, many of the large based ships are already agility 1 or 0, so any firepower 3 ship is probably going to average out to doing roughly the same amount of damage each turn as a ship equipped with one.

TLT has a lower damage cap than a three dice attack, but it has a better chance to not miss entirely meaning it does better damage on average.

Most ships that are going to take TLT are going to be low pilot skill (usually PS 2) and low agility but with high health (like the Y-wing with eight combined hull and shield). It is possible to kill a Y-wing in before it shoots (I've done quite a few times myself). Also, forcing them to split up they're formation reduces their effectiveness a great deal as well.

I actually like 2 tlt 1 large ship, I have only played one game with it so far, but some combo of an ig88 with 2 thug tlts seems stronger to me then 4 tlt ys

 krootman. wrote:
I actually like 2 tlt 1 large ship, I have only played one game with it so far, but some combo of an ig88 with 2 thug tlts seems stronger to me then 4 tlt ys

I've been running this as of late and it's been doing well:

Moralo Eval (34)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Outlaw Tech (2)
Tactician (2)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I feel like the R7 Astromech would be good on a Y-wing with TLT, any one tried that?

It would only be good vs 2 or maybe 3 ship lists, but you could just save the target lock for attacking since with low PS you'll likely get fired at first.

I don't have a rebel Y-wing yet or a K-wing but i feel that will change soon!

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
I actually like 2 tlt 1 large ship, I have only played one game with it so far, but some combo of an ig88 with 2 thug tlts seems stronger to me then 4 tlt ys

I've been running this as of late and it's been doing well:

Moralo Eval (34)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Outlaw Tech (2)
Tactician (2)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Inertial Dampeners (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder

What do you think about the hounds tooth?

easypeasylemonsquezy wrote:I feel like the R7 Astromech would be good on a Y-wing with TLT, any one tried that?

It would only be good vs 2 or maybe 3 ship lists, but you could just save the target lock for attacking since with low PS you'll likely get fired at first.

I don't have a rebel Y-wing yet or a K-wing but i feel that will change soon!

I have not tried ti reb tlt lists yet, I am going to try maranda with 2 gold sqd tlts this weekend.

I have yet to try the r7, but I figure it can't hurt.

 krootman. wrote:
What do you think about the hounds tooth?

I've been enjoying it a lot.

The YV-66 flies like a brick but Moralo hits like a truck with a modified HLC more often than not.

The thing I've noticed about TLT heavy lists so far (and this is really only a handful of games) is if a TLT ship get focussed down early it really does bite into the lists damage output

I'm sure the meta will adjust in time and answers will be forthcoming

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
The thing I've noticed about TLT heavy lists so far (and this is really only a handful of games) is if a TLT ship get focussed down early it really does bite into the lists damage output

Duly noted.

IMHO the new FAQ that ships reduced to half damage (counting both shields and Hull) count for 1/2 points will do more to reduce the plague of the Fat Ships than a trick gun that does 1 or 2 points of damage per turn.
Kill the small guy(s) and hurt the Fat Ship and your opponent will likely have to table you to win.

Ah, I didn't know about the half damage FAQ - that is most welcome!

 RiTides wrote:
Ah, I didn't know about the half damage FAQ - that is most welcome!

It's in the new tournament rules, not the FAQ because it doesn't really affect the game outside of a competitive setting.

True that...but then if some ones running a Fat Turret and a speedy buddy (or any of the variants of the Tourny Meta) as their "Flying Casual Fun List" then a good kick in the junk should be in order.

Yeah... big ships will be much cheaper. You'll see 1 Big Ship with 2 speedy friends if you see large-based 1 agility ships at all anymore.

Example from Nova weekend:
Shuttle w/Emperor
Full out Vader
Full out Fel

Not necessarily, the half points only comes into play in a modified win, if they've already tabled you, it's irrelevant.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not necessarily, the half points only comes into play in a modified win, if they've already tabled you, it's irrelevant.

No, the points are calculated into the MOV at the end of every game, not just games that go to time. This is important because MOV is used as a tiebreaker.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not necessarily, the half points only comes into play in a modified win, if they've already tabled you, it's irrelevant.

No, the points are calculated into the MOV at the end of every game, not just games that go to time. This is important because MOV is used as a tiebreaker.

Yeah, for example last tournament I was in I missed out on 2nd place by 10 points. Had this rule predated that tournament, the guy in 2nd (who was running a double big-ship list) would have had a narrower MOV in his previous match, and I would have taken 2nd instead.

Ok, slightly misunderstood that, doesn't alter my thinking that large bases are here to stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was actually at a tournament last weekend, but as the changes were announced so close the TOs decided to use old style.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, slightly misunderstood that, doesn't alter my thinking that large bases are here to stay.

I totally agree. While we might see a little less Fat Hans flying around out there (thank science!), large base ships are still definitely going to be a thing.

Was actually at a tournament last weekend, but as the changes were announced so close the TOs decided to use old style.

I don't think they go into effect until October 1, but I'm not entirely sure. I have a tournament next Wednesday and I play on flying a YV-666 regardless.

It was only a local event, so it was on the cards but they decided that it wasn't really enough notice. Would likely have swung the results though.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not necessarily, the half points only comes into play in a modified win, if they've already tabled you, it's irrelevant.

No, the points are calculated into the MOV at the end of every game, not just games that go to time. This is important because MOV is used as a tiebreaker.

Not sure that's right. The way I'm reading the Tourny Rules under the 'End of Match' bit the half points for big ships only comes into play if it goes to time as it's only mentioned as part of that paragraph rather than the prior 'tabling' paragraph

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not necessarily, the half points only comes into play in a modified win, if they've already tabled you, it's irrelevant.

No, the points are calculated into the MOV at the end of every game, not just games that go to time. This is important because MOV is used as a tiebreaker.

Not sure that's right. The way I'm reading the Tourny Rules the half points for big ships only comes into play if it goes to time as it's only mentioned as part of that paragraph rather than the prior 'tabling' paragraph

No, it's right:

When calculating a score, each player receives half the total squad point
value (rounded down) of each enemy large ship whose combined total hull and
shields, including any Hull Upgrades or Shield Upgrades, have been reduced to
half or below.

You need to read the version that was updated on 9/17 (which is the newest one), not the one from 9/4 (where the relevant information was in the paragraph about a game going to time and where it was first introduced).

But isn't a tabling always a 100/0?