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 heartserenade wrote:
HBMC pretty much said what I want to say. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if it's clear cut that you can use FW in a GW store. BECAUSE OTHER GW STORES ALLOW FORGE WORLD. It's not something FW buyers "know they're into", whatever that means.

My local GW is thankfully a pretty chill place that lets me use non GW paints if I want to hang out and paint there, my local Battle Bunker is an absolutely atrocious store I'd never willingly hang out in with the current staff, but they love their FW there and use it all the time.

If either store told me FW was now banned I'd legitimately be shocked and I can absolutely tell you no one around here would ever expect that they couldn't use FW in store.


edit:
As a matter of fact that is so absurd I just have to say that hell no, FW is no different from any other product in that I would feel perfectly justifiable walking into a store and playing it. Just because I might have bought something online does not mean I would ever feel bad about playing it at my FLGS. I have no personal rule about only playing models I bought from a store on their tables, and I would never expect a store to implement that policy.

Offering tables is a service, that service is something that a local store can do to increase the value of their product that they can't sell as cheaply as an online store. Nowhere is it explicitly stated that you can only use models you bought in store on store tables, tables are not a reward. If it were explicitly stated I'd probably dust my hands of a store and walk away on principal as they are no longer offering them as a service and there is no longer anything to make their product more appealing than the ones you can buy online at a greater discount.


I suppose I am the same with charging for tables too, once a store starts that then the tables are removed from the equation for me and I'll just buy from whoever is cheapest then pay to play on a table and not feel bad about never buying actual models from the store. I used the table, and I paid for it, I have fulfilled my obligations to the store for using their space.

/rant

Just to muddy the waters further, you can currently return BL books and unopened FW kits to GW stores for store credit.

I accidentally ended up with two copies of a very pricy anthology (2nd was a present from a well meaning parent) and thought I'd have to truck it back to HQ. Nope. Local manager explained they can take in those products there.

...

I got nothing.

 Talys wrote:
People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into.

Wow, what the feth is it with you?

Noir wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:


I've never stepped into a GW store since that day, and except for one army, the 12ish armies I have collected since 2002 I have done exclusively through trades or 3rd party online stores.

GW lost a customer that day, and since, I have got other people not to play GW games.

Oh well.

Not really, while you don't give them your money directly you are still lining their pockets.

Not at all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Buffo don't fool yourself - everytime you buy some GW product it's a win for them.

Maybe, but my money went into the pockets of people like me.

But I get what you guys are saying. Just because I take part in the hobby, I give GW free advertisement, give my opponents reasons to buy models themselves, etc....

I guess just by existing, I give GW money, but I am fine with giving them these phantom side dollars instead of the tens of thousands of dollars I would have given them directly over the past 15ish years.

 BuFFo wrote:

Noir wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:


I've never stepped into a GW store since that day, and except for one army, the 12ish armies I have collected since 2002 I have done exclusively through trades or 3rd party online stores.

GW lost a customer that day, and since, I have got other people not to play GW games.

Oh well.

Not really, while you don't give them your money directly you are still lining their pockets.

Not at all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Buffo don't fool yourself - everytime you buy some GW product it's a win for them.

Maybe, but my money went into the pockets of people like me.

But I get what you guys are saying. Just because I take part in the hobby, I give GW free advertisement, give my opponents reasons to buy models themselves, etc....

I guess just by existing, I give GW money, but I am fine with giving them these phantom side dollars instead of the tens of thousands of dollars I would have given them directly over the past 15ish years.

Or by buying second hand, you take an army someone doesn't want, and they then go and buy a new army from GW using your money

 JamesY wrote:
Depends how you go about it. Saying no to FW isn't the same as banning the player. They would still be welcome to play 40k or AoS. If they only play 30k, it won't affect their bottom line beyond the occasional paint pot. And I'm sorry to say grump, you moaning to friends about how you feel wronged by a legitimate decision wouldn't influence their spending as much as you would hope, if at all.

It's only a legitimate decision if you're the mental cases in charge of GW.

It's an understandable decision in the sense that GW have taken retail target culture and amplified it to such a ridiculous degree that a manager of one of their stores feels it's necessary to ban some of his own company's products from his store to try and salvage his own career, but that doesn't make it justifiable.

As for this kool-aid fuelled idea that stores are there to sell-sell-sell and graciously permitting the peasants to play games within their hallowed walls is a privilege for which we should be eternally grateful; utter manure. Manure because the stores are ostensibly GW's primary form of marketing and "buy our stuff then eff-off" is hardly positive optics(and given that their second form of marketing is ostensibly word of mouth, "whine all you want, I bet none of your mates care, har har" is a hilariously counter-productive attitude, but given the company's other blunders I wouldn't be surprised if it's one you picked up from them). Manure because, contrary to the belief seemingly instilled in GW managers at the reeducation centres, the company is not entitled to anyone's money, if a manager can't figure out a way to get most of the community in their store to buy non-FW stuff that's their failing not the customers', and banning the use of those purchases in a desperate attempt to force the customers' hands is merely compounding that failure. Manure because the only people at fault for the creation of the perception among gamers that gaming in store is a core service not a gracious optional extra is GW themselves who spent the last 30 years building up their "hobby centres" as one-stop-shops for all things GW, including gaming, and still use that rhetoric even after they stopped supporting stores in the ways necessary to actually let them deliver the advertised experience.

It's a shame that GW treats their staff so poorly that some feel the need to resort to this kind of absurdity, but just because it's possible to sympathise with someone's motivations doesn't mean we have to accept the actions which result are just.

 statu wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:

Noir wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:


I've never stepped into a GW store since that day, and except for one army, the 12ish armies I have collected since 2002 I have done exclusively through trades or 3rd party online stores.

GW lost a customer that day, and since, I have got other people not to play GW games.

Oh well.

Not really, while you don't give them your money directly you are still lining their pockets.

Not at all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Buffo don't fool yourself - everytime you buy some GW product it's a win for them.

Maybe, but my money went into the pockets of people like me.

But I get what you guys are saying. Just because I take part in the hobby, I give GW free advertisement, give my opponents reasons to buy models themselves, etc....

I guess just by existing, I give GW money, but I am fine with giving them these phantom side dollars instead of the tens of thousands of dollars I would have given them directly over the past 15ish years.

Or by buying second hand, you take an army someone doesn't want, and they then go and buy a new army from GW using your money

Ding, ding, ding, And we have a winner.

Trasvi wrote:
And from the POV of the bottom line of the store (ie, the manager trying to keep his job), You can't buy them in the store. The store doesn't get any money from pointing you towards them.
It might irritate people who've gotten used to doing things the old way... but they shouldn't have expected to be able to do things that way in the first place.

Of course they should. They're buying in a GW store using GW models and buying more GW products from the store. That latter fact seems to keep getting deliberately ignored.

I have yet to meet face to face anyone with a 30K army who had the money and inclination to go all FW., who back their Contemptor dreads up with the standard ones, and need more rhinos and land raiders to taxi their guys around in. Those are all sales that the manager is driving away, and even more if those players leave the store completely.

Forgeworld products may as well be a competitor's products.

They're simply not.

The issue isn't what the guys gaming with are using, or what they have bought either online or in store.

The issue is with other, potentially new, players wandering into the store and saying "Hey that looks cool, what is it and where can i buy it?".

The store manager then has to explain that the Contemptor Dreadnought is only available via the FW website and he loses sales.

On the other hand if he has a 40K game or an AoS game running on those tables he can make sales off new customers either with a starter set, or selling some of the cool models people have seen in store.

StraightSilver wrote:
The issue isn't what the guys gaming with are using, or what they have bought either online or in store.

The issue is with other, potentially new, players wandering into the store and saying "Hey that looks cool, what is it and where can i buy it?".

The store manager then has to explain that the Contemptor Dreadnought is only available via the FW website and he loses sales.

On the other hand if he has a 40K game or an AoS game running on those tables he can make sales off new customers either with a starter set, or selling some of the cool models people have seen in store.

GW employees are particularly adept at 'guiding' new people's purchases. Wouldn't be all that hard for him explain that a beginner set would be the way to go, and that FW stuff is for more advanced players who are comfortable with the basic units.

On the other hand, the more people who visit a store = more free advertising, both from other people seeing them play, and also through what they say to their friends.

 Bookwrack wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
And from the POV of the bottom line of the store (ie, the manager trying to keep his job), You can't buy them in the store. The store doesn't get any money from pointing you towards them.
It might irritate people who've gotten used to doing things the old way... but they shouldn't have expected to be able to do things that way in the first place.

Of course they should. They're buying in a GW store using GW models and buying more GW products from the store. That latter fact seems to keep getting deliberately ignored.

I have yet to meet face to face anyone with a 30K army who had the money and inclination to go all FW., who back their Contemptor dreads up with the standard ones, and need more rhinos and land raiders to taxi their guys around in. Those are all sales that the manager is driving away, and even more if those players leave the store completely.

I've met at least one or two people who have gone really heavy on FW stuff(one was a DKOK player).

And they haven't actually gone "all FW", but rather have gone Far East World with a smattering of FW--and bragged about it no less.

Forgeworld products may as well be a competitor's products.

They're simply not.

When you're talking about conversion kits or things that are part of "regular" 40k? You're absolutely right--for the most part, they're complementary products.
When you're talking about things like the Space Marine Armor Marks? Not really.
As of right now, someone who wanted to could likely make an entire 30k Space Marine army without purchasing anything but Drop Pods(if they have them; I have paid zero attention to 30k beyond the models) in plastic.

 BrookM wrote:

 Talys wrote:
People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into.

Wow, what the feth is it with you?

He is the one percent.

The Auld Grump

@ heartsrenagade the habits of one specific group of friends that don't conform to typical spending patterns would only be a concern to a retailer if they were in a very precarious position. In a store that's running well they wouldn't be noticed.

It is also a very good way to put yourself in a precarious position.

The Auld Grump

Damn, while I understand GW stores and their playing tables are more of an advertisement place for their products rather than places to play games in with friends (no matter what GW propaganda says) banning FW is just silly. Only serious hobbyists buy FW minis since theyre rather expensive and such a person is usually ready to buy more gw stuff either now or in the future. That is extremely short-sighted by GW.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
It is also a very good way to put yourself in a precarious position.

The Auld Grump

Indeed.

I might have already said it in this thread but it is a very GW attitude to just assume there will be customers and sales to replace the ones lost by this move.

 BrookM wrote:

 Talys wrote:
People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into.

Wow, what the feth is it with you?

What are you talking about? They're among the most expensive models that one can buy, most vehicles are difficult kits with dubious instructions, and you have to buy many models separately for chassis/weapons/supporting weapon configurations (meaning you can't buy the kit, and then choose; you have to choose and buy the parts separately). Even basic infantry often require you to buy multiple, expensive kits. The models themselves, while intricate and detailed, are resin and not easy to work with. They take 3x longer to clean up and prep as compared to GW plastics. The books (rules) are extremely expensive by most standards. You can't buy the products anywhere but online and in person at Nottingham. An army will easily take many times the cost of a 40k army, perhaps even 10x the cost of a WMH army. And the armies are very difficult to transport if you have any of the larger titans.

Forge World is not someone's first game. It doesn't matter if you're a millionaire or a dedicated hobbyist working for an average wage: nobody starts wargaming with 30k.

So like I said: before someone who gets into Forge World games (and I don't mean 1 pack of shoulder pads or 1 sicaran tank...), they know what they are getting into. You get into 30k armies because you think their models are super-duper, or because you specifically want to play 30k. In either case, there's no way someone goes and blows thousands of dollars for just a couple of carrying cases of models without knowing what it is they're getting themselves into. "Who am I playing with?" and "Where are we going to play?" are two key questions to be answered before such an investment, because 30k players don't exactly fall off of tries.

 JamesY wrote:
@ heartsrenagade the habits of one specific group of friends that don't conform to typical spending patterns would only be a concern to a retailer if they were in a very precarious position. In a store that's running well they wouldn't be noticed.

You didn't answer the question, though. I didn't ask if a store is running well, or if it is a concern to a retailer.

Check what I asked again, then answer. Here, let me quote it again unless you forgot.

16 years of retail and you know his friends and their dynamic, somehow? Like that specific group, you know them and how they behave and how they listen to each other? That's like saying you know all about a specific relationship because you're a divorce lawyer. That's plain arrogance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 Talys wrote:
People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into.

Wow, what the feth is it with you?

What are you talking about? They're among the most expensive models that one can buy, most vehicles are difficult kits with dubious instructions, and you have to buy many models separately for chassis/weapons/supporting weapon configurations. Even basic infantry often require you to buy multiple, expensive kits. The models themselves, while intricate and detailed, are resin and not easy to work with. They take 3x longer to clean up and prep as compared to GW plastics. The books (rules) are extremely expensive by most standards. You can't buy the products anywhere but online and in person at Nottingham. An army will easily take many times the cost of a 40k army, perhaps even 10x the cost of a WMH army. And the armies are very difficult to transport if you have any of the larger titans.

Oh for the love of everything that is holy, we're talking about using FW models in a GW store, not how expensive or how difficult resin is.

Is buying FW and not being able to use it in a GW store, when most GW stores allow FW, something that a buying FW customer is "getting into?" What does having difficult, expensive kits got to do with not being able to use them in a GW store? Shouldn't it be MORE allowed since they're more expensive?

I don't get the logic here.

 heartserenade wrote:

Oh for the love of everything that is holy, we're talking about using FW models in a GW store, not how expensive or how difficult resin is.

Is buying FW and not being able to use it in a GW store, when most GW stores allow FW, something that a buying FW customer is "getting into?" What does having difficult, expensive kits got to do with not being able to use them in a GW store? Shouldn't it be MORE allowed since they're more expensive?

I don't get the logic here.

Like I said, before you invest thousands of dollars into a game with difficult to build and expensive models, you figure out who and where you're going to play. Since the game is obviously not sold at a GW store, it would behoove you to ask them first.

Again, I said, FW customers know what they are getting into. They are not newb gamers. They will have figured out where to play long before blowing a few thousand dollars. This is not someone buying a starter box and then going, dammit, they won't let me play here!!

 Talys wrote:

Like I said, before you invest thousands of dollars into a game with difficult to build and expensive models, you figure out who and where you're going to play.

Funny how one would expect you can play GW games with GW products in a GW store. The store permitted FW models before in the past, or have you missed that? Clearly the players have done the "figuring out where to play" part.

 heartserenade wrote:

Is buying FW and not being able to use it in a GW store, when most GW stores allow FW, something that a buying FW customer is "getting into?" What does having difficult, expensive kits got to do with not being able to use them in a GW store? Shouldn't it be MORE allowed since they're more expensive?

I don't get the logic here.

Quite frankly, I think you're not grasping why what Talys and others are saying is a thing because of this line you made:

Is buying FW and not being able to use it in a GW store, when most GW stores allow FW,

There is no corporate policy that someone coming in with a FW store has to be allowed to play with it in their shop. Managers are, from what has been said here, allowed to make a judgement call.

I can't comment on the OP's situation as I don't know the situation at their shop firsthand, but I can think of a ton of reasons why a manager might disallow FW armies.
Keyword there: "ARMIES". Not "models", but whole armies.

One reason that immediately comes to mind is the 30k players might have been talking about purchasing models via recasters or suggesting that avenue to new customers. If that's the case, I can almost guarantee you that the manager would shut down any attempts to organize 30k stuff.
Another reason that comes to mind is that the 30k players might never actually buy anything there but expect to be given priority for gaming space or trying to organize big huge 30k games(things that make the store very little/no money).

I would not be surprised to find out that the 30k players might have been doing something that the manager caught wind of and decided to shut it down before things escalated or got out of his ability to exert too much control.

 Talys wrote:
Like I said, before you invest thousands of dollars into a game with difficult to build and expensive models, you figure out who and where you're going to play. Since the game is obviously not sold at a GW store, it would behoove you to ask them first.

Except GW managers come and go like the wind. Rarely have I started an army and had the same manager by the time I've finished it (only the most recent manager at the closest GW store has lasted a significant period of time).

You could very easily buy in to FW with the plan of playing it at a local GW thinking it's all GW so you should be able to play it in a GW store AND having been told by the GW staff that you can play with it and then turn around and not be able to play with it when the next manager rocks up.

FW stuff is even advertised in the publications that are sold at local stores, it's not hard to get the impression that you should be able to play with them in stores. Most customers probably don't realise (and shouldn't have to realise) that GW managers are often surviving off the skin of their teeth rather than GW stores being a haven for all GW products including FW.

IMO it would be best if GW just made a globally consistent policy on it and allow stores to be a point of ordering FW with free shipping, but they probably won't. I don't think they spend enough time doing the requisite local level market research to make the most out of their stores (which includes using them as a platform for FW stuff).

@ heartsrenegade you are missing my point, not the other way around. When customers don't get what they want, saying that they will tell everyone they know how crap you are, and how they are going to tell everyone they know not to shop with you is a face saving statement to try and reclaim a false sense of power. It is normally empty, but even when people do moan to others, I have never seen it affect the till (although I have always had growth as a manager). So no, I don't have an intimate knowledge of auldgrumps mates and how dearly they uphold each others principles, but I do know that that one group of people making a decision to boycott the store wouldn't affect it for long, if at all. Tbh, if a group had that sort of sense of entitlement and attitude, their absence might well help the store grow (and that is absolutely not a snide dig at you auldgrump).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Like I said, before you invest thousands of dollars into a game with difficult to build and expensive models, you figure out who and where you're going to play. Since the game is obviously not sold at a GW store, it would behoove you to ask them first.

Except GW managers come and go like the wind. Rarely have I started an army and had the same manager by the time I've finished it (only the most recent manager at the closest GW store has lasted a significant period of time).

heartserenade wrote:

 Talys wrote:

Like I said, before you invest thousands of dollars into a game with difficult to build and expensive models, you figure out who and where you're going to play.

Funny how one would expect you can play GW games with GW products in a GW store. The store permitted FW models before in the past, or have you missed that? Clearly the players have done the "figuring out where to play" part.

This, really, is my point. By "them", incidentally, I meant Forge World, not the GW store (sorry for the ambiguity). To me, a logical way of researching where to play would be first to ask Forge World if one my play their games at GW stores, even though GW can't stores can't sell them -- since FW is a GW subsidiary, right? A logical answer from FW would seem to be, "it's up to the GW manager".

Assuming the person isn't totally knew in the GW world, they know that being a GW manager is generally not a lifelong career. So a reasonable person would expect that perhaps with this manager it's cool, with another it's not.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
IMO it would be best if GW just made a globally consistent policy on it and allow stores to be a point of ordering FW with free shipping, but they probably won't. I don't think they spend enough time doing the requisite local level market research to make the most out of their stores (which includes using them as a platform for FW stuff).

I agree! I think JamesY said earlier that this is supposedly because GW couldn't keep up with demand if they did this, under the current manufacturing process. Which is nuts, IMO But there is no doubt in my mind that I would buy a ton more FW stuff, if I could order/pick up at a GW store with no shipping hassles.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I would not be surprised to find out that the 30k players might have been doing something that the manager caught wind of and decided to shut it down before things escalated or got out of his ability to exert too much control.

Except that is complete speculation on your part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
@ heartsrenegade you are missing my point, not the other way around. When customers don't get what they want, saying that they will tell everyone they know how crap you are, and how they are going to tell everyone they know not to shop with you is a face saving statement to try and reclaim a false sense of power. It is normally empty, but even when people do moan to others, I have never seen it affect the till (although I have always had growth as a manager). So no, I don't have an intimate knowledge of auldgrumps mates and how dearly they uphold each others principles, but I do know that that one group of people making a decision to boycott the store wouldn't affect it for long, if at all. Tbh, if a group had that sort of sense of entitlement and attitude, their absence might well help the store grow (and that is absolutely not a snide dig at you auldgrump).

Isn't retail 101 that a customer will tell like 3x as many people about a negative experience as they would a positive, so if like GW you operate primarily on word of mouth you absolutely can not afford to annoy an significant portion of the people in your store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

This, really, is my point. By "them", incidentally, I meant Forge World, not the GW store (sorry for the ambiguity). To me, a logical way of researching where to play would be first to ask Forge World if one my play their games at GW stores, even though GW can't stores can't sell them -- since FW is a GW subsidiary, right? A logical answer from FW would seem to be, "it's up to the GW manager".

Assuming the person isn't totally knew in the GW world, they know that being a GW manager is generally not a lifelong career. So a reasonable person would expect that perhaps with this manager it's cool, with another it's not.

Were people able to play FW products intheir local store at the time of purchase?
Yes.
Can they currently play previously purchased FW products in that same store?
No.

It is entirely unreasonable to say these people should have seen this coming. And given how few (if any besides this one) mangers actually do have a problem with FW there would never even be a reson to suspect this might happen. Seriously, is this normal in Canada, because it sure as hell ain't in Australia.

If GW were more adaptable they could even use our store to experiment with Forgeworld deliveries or 30k stock.

Just to clear up some of the speculation. It is all Forgeworld models that are disallowed not just 30k or 30k armies. The only FW items allowed are upgrade kits (e.g. Carnifex crushing claws).

The 30k players already have extensive 40k and WHFB armies. Many of these armies also include FW models. From the comments of some, they weren't so upset about not being able to play 30k in store anymore as they all play it out of store. It was the FW models for 40k and AoS they were disappointed about as these two games they only play in store.

I just can't understand why, for example, a Night Goblin player couldn't field the cool FW Night Goblin Boss on Cave Squig with his army...

It feels like a blanket ban to push 30k out the store, which I guess is being done because they don't contribute to targets, but the repercussions are quite big.

This core group bought a lot of stock. Their 30k is largely pure FW. Their 40k and WHFB is largely bought in store.

Maybe they are close to the end of the customer lifecycle with so much stock already bought, but the old adage states it is 10x cheaper to keep an existing customer than it is to find a new customer, right?

 Bottle wrote:
So I've been back into the hobby for almost a year now, and spend quite a lot of time at my local GW.

In that time there has been 3 managers, and all have had a different policy on Forgeworld models. That they even need a policy struck me as odd at first. Anyway, I just sit on the sidelines because I don't own any Forgeworld models.

Our new manager has now essentially banned all Forgeworld models from being played or painted in store. As 90% of the regulars are currently 30K mad, some exclusively playing 30k and buying Forgeworld, it was a surprising decision by the store manager.

Why do you think GW managers always have to have policies on Forgeworld? Is it head office applying pressure? Are all GW stores the same with this disapproval of FW? Why would a store want to discourage the playing and collecting of it's luxury models?

And I guess this discussion goes further into GW and FW's relationship. Why is it so perculiar?

hes a store owner first and foremost, if he doesnt sell products to people that come into his store he doesnt stay open that is fact not fiction. he isnt able to control his prices he has to sell whatever the company tells him too. if people are bulk buying forgeworld and playing nothing but 30k in his store he isnt making a sale off forgeworld products. he doesnt sell them and he doesnt see a dime from those sales. in addition if a customer comes in and sees someone assembling/painting/playing models not available to him on the store shelves at all then he will likely ask questions and then consider going and buying/playing those things instead thus costing him sales.

its simple logic, this is likely effecting his buisness so he has barred it from the store because it has become just as you have said an epidemic. hes a store owner first and your friend second, and if he has to close his doors because everyone buying forgeworld instead of GW products then everyone loses.

He's not a store owner, he's an employee, and the truly stupid thing here is that the discussion exists at all.

@ jonolikespie giving bad service isn't the same as saying no. You can't play specialist games in the stores for the same reason that you can't play 30k. It's a reasonable trade off for a free gaming environment that you are using products that helps support the store you are in.

 ionusx wrote:

hes a store owner first and foremost, if he doesnt sell products to people that come into his store he doesnt stay open that is fact not fiction.

And we are customers first and foremost, as crass as it might seem to say we have no obligation to care about his job. We want value for money, and removing in store gaming removes value.