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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/25 16:21:57
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Free Company Reject
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I was playing my Nurgle Daemons against Dark Angels, and hit them with a defensive grenade. They subsequently failed their initiative test and dropped to BS1. When I went to charge them, my opponent fired his Overwatch, which he wanted to resolve at BS2 because of his codex's special rule, but I said they had to fire at BS1 because of the defensive grenade. We rolled off and he won, so they blasted my poor Plaguebearers with those nasty Plasma Talons (hate those things . . . ). Anyway, it was still a good game, and my opponent is a good guy, just wanted to see what you brothers thought here on the forum.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/25 16:51:38
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'm not sure - I take it these grenades cause Blind?
If the rules say that you drop to BS1, then he'll fire at BS2 because his rules will override whatever his current Ballistic Skill is.
If the rules say you fire at BS1, then whomever's turn it is chooses which applies first, since both rules are trying to apply to the same event at the same time. The rules tell us in such a situation, the player whose turn it is chooses the order of resolution, thus choosing whichever one benefits them.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/25 17:23:33
Subject: Re:Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Free Company Reject
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Yes, it indeed gives you the Blind rule, but it does say it "reduces" you to BS1, not "you fire at" BS1, so I'll go with he would still be able to Overwatch me at BS2.
Thank you, sir, for your quick response.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/25 17:31:20
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Actually this: The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots - Snap Shots Does Blind mention Modifying the Ballistic Score of Snap Shots?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/25 17:32:10
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/26 04:56:14
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Not as Good as a Minion
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JinxDragon wrote:Actually this:
The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots
- Snap Shots
Does Blind mention Modifying the Ballistic Score of Snap Shots?
The Dark Angels rule doesn't specifically modify Snap Fire, it modifies one occasion of Snap Fire, much like Skyfire does.
Blind says for its affect, " If the Initiative test is failed, all models in the unit are reduced to Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 1 until the end of their next turn."
Grim Resolve's pertinent portion is, " and, unless Jinking, count their Ballistic Skill as 2 when firing Overwatch."
So, Blind does not force a Snap Fire situation like Overwatch or Invisibility do, it just changes it to the same value. A Blinded model/unit would still be able to fire Template and Blast Weapons, for example.
Off hand, Grim Resolve doesn't clear Blind, specifically, but both being set-value modifiers (sufficient for the case at hand, anyway), and Grim Resolve being a Codex Advanced Rule, I'd have to say Grim Resolve wins out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/26 04:56:47
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/26 07:55:33
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Slightly different topic, but i think that grim resolve would allow you to overwatch at BS 2 (or more) at invisible targets.
Edit: Also, regarding this topic, if you got full company and overwatch at full BS then blind would bring it to BS1, so that would actually turn out to be a malus compared to regular grim resolve.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/26 07:57:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/26 11:47:40
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Can a RW unit that jinked still firs Overwatch at BS2? Slightly different question but related.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/26 12:51:25
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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Dozer Blades wrote:Can a RW unit that jinked still firs Overwatch at BS2? Slightly different question but related.
No. Grim resolve specifically states otherwise
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"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/26 17:07:18
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Spoletta wrote:Slightly different topic, but i think that grim resolve would allow you to overwatch at BS 2 (or more) at invisible targets.
Edit: Also, regarding this topic, if you got full company and overwatch at full BS then blind would bring it to BS1, so that would actually turn out to be a malus compared to regular grim resolve.
If it can Overwatch an Invisible unit at BS2, than Blind would be no different. Grim Resolve does not stop Snap Fire, it just changes what the BS of the Snap Fire is.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 03:08:34
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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Charistoph wrote:Spoletta wrote:Slightly different topic, but i think that grim resolve would allow you to overwatch at BS 2 (or more) at invisible targets.
Edit: Also, regarding this topic, if you got full company and overwatch at full BS then blind would bring it to BS1, so that would actually turn out to be a malus compared to regular grim resolve.
If it can Overwatch an Invisible unit at BS2, than Blind would be no different. Grim Resolve does not stop Snap Fire, it just changes what the BS of the Snap Fire is.
I think he's referring to the Supreme Fire Discipline rule, which doesn't give a set value. It says you fire at "your normal ballistic skill" which, I think even objectively, would override blind even if only because codex > brb
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/27 03:09:18
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 16:56:35
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jokerkd wrote:Charistoph wrote:Spoletta wrote:Slightly different topic, but i think that grim resolve would allow you to overwatch at BS 2 (or more) at invisible targets.
Edit: Also, regarding this topic, if you got full company and overwatch at full BS then blind would bring it to BS1, so that would actually turn out to be a malus compared to regular grim resolve.
If it can Overwatch an Invisible unit at BS2, than Blind would be no different. Grim Resolve does not stop Snap Fire, it just changes what the BS of the Snap Fire is.
I think he's referring to the Supreme Fire Discipline rule, which doesn't give a set value. It says you fire at "your normal ballistic skill" which, I think even objectively, would override blind even if only because codex > brb
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 20:39:10
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Not as Good as a Minion
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barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
In addition, Multiple Modifiers do not care about the timing of application, only type of modifier, so this situation does not care when they were applied.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 21:15:19
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Lieutenant General
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Charistoph wrote:barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
Well, there's this post from Yakface which explains it as he sees it.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 22:29:43
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Charistoph is correct however that there is actually a rule which states that, when rulebook and codex rules conflict, the codex rule takes precedence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 22:41:27
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Ghaz wrote:Charistoph wrote:barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
Well, there's this post from Yakface which explains it as he sees it.
So, no quotes from the rules, just generalizations assumed...
Consideration of specifics is required, but bypassing Blind is not the same as bypassing Hard To Hit, either.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/27 23:16:08
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/27 23:54:02
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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Lets say codex > brb isn't a thing.
Blind says treat your unit as having bs1
Supreme fire discipline says fire overwatch at your normal ballistic skil
What is your "normal ballistic skill"? Is it 4(example) or is it 1?
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"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/28 03:32:28
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Once more remind:
Any Rule designed to modify the Ballistic Score of a Model can only be applied if it specifically mentions Snap Shots, during situations where Snap Shots are being fired.
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/28 06:19:18
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote:barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
In addition, Multiple Modifiers do not care about the timing of application, only type of modifier, so this situation does not care when they were applied.
The rule is not codex > rulebook. It is very specific that when Codex and rulebook are in conflict the Codex takes precedent (pg13 black box), Blind and Grim Resolve are not a direct conflict however. The same also states that were advances rules apply to a specific model they over ride basic rules.
Set modifiers are applied last and if you have 2 things applied at the same time, you then have a sequencing issue. Grim Resolve is a set modifier of 2 and Blind is a set modifier of1. Pg 17 printed rules gives details on Sequencing and states the players who's turn it is chooses the order.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/28 08:23:27
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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barnowl wrote:Charistoph wrote:barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
In addition, Multiple Modifiers do not care about the timing of application, only type of modifier, so this situation does not care when they were applied.
The rule is not codex > rulebook. It is very specific that when Codex and rulebook are in conflict the Codex takes precedent (pg13 black box), Blind and Grim Resolve are not a direct conflict however. The same also states that were advances rules apply to a specific model they over ride basic rules.
Set modifiers are applied last and if you have 2 things applied at the same time, you then have a sequencing issue. Grim Resolve is a set modifier of 2 and Blind is a set modifier of1. Pg 17 printed rules gives details on Sequencing and states the players who's turn it is chooses the order.
Even assuming that blind could affect snap shots, how do you conclude that a rule saying bs1 and a rule saying bs4 are not in conflict?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/28 08:24:24
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/29 20:03:45
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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Hey, I love all the rules lawyering but ... HIWPI - the guys are blind it would make sense they have to shoot at BS 1.
I think the play the narrative part of the rules comes in here - grim resolve doesn't mean they can suddenly see when blind.
Anyway, rules lawyers, carry on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/09/29 20:26:44
Subject: Dark Angels vs. Defensive Grenades
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Not as Good as a Minion
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barnowl wrote:Charistoph wrote:barnowl wrote:
It is not codex>BRB , but Specific> General. Most times the codex is the more specific, so Blind > Supreme Fire Discipline. As to the original question, I would call it a case of active Player determines order. both are effectively set values and so the last one applied takes priority.
I can demonstrate a rule of codex > rulebook in General Principles, Basic vs Advanced. I have not been able to find any rules on specific > general, could you reference where they are at?
In addition, Multiple Modifiers do not care about the timing of application, only type of modifier, so this situation does not care when they were applied.
The rule is not codex > rulebook. It is very specific that when Codex and rulebook are in conflict the Codex takes precedent (pg13 black box), Blind and Grim Resolve are not a direct conflict however. The same also states that were advances rules apply to a specific model they over ride basic rules.
Set modifiers are applied last and if you have 2 things applied at the same time, you then have a sequencing issue. Grim Resolve is a set modifier of 2 and Blind is a set modifier of1. Pg 17 printed rules gives details on Sequencing and states the players who's turn it is chooses the order.
I'll say it again, Multiple Modifiers do not care about the timing of application, only the type of modifier.
Blind sets models in a unit to BS 1, and is a rulebook Advanced rule.
Grim Resolve sets a unit's Overwatch Snapshots to BS 2 and is a Codex Advanced rule.
BS 2 and BS 1 comes in to conflict, trying to apply their numbers at the same time. Basic vs Advanced comes in to play and allows Grim Resolve to override Blind. It doesn't matter if "Blind is applied second", since Grim Resolve overrules it.
Now, if this was an affect from a Codex Advanced rule that did the same thing as Blind, then you would have a case about timing, since no other rule could solve the problem.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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