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Salous wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Salous wrote:

Great post, but the people in this thread have the minds made up. They're either unable or unwilling to take matters into their own hands and have fun. If its not done for them they're lost. I imagine this is how they got things done as a child... cry, bitch, and moan till their parents fixed every problem and did everything for them.

People might be inclined to take you seriously if you didn't act like an ass. Straight up man, your post above adds nothing of any value to the conversation. None. Nothing. Zip. Zilch.

This discussion is about the state of 40k. That state is one of unbalanced mess that is only getting more complicated and more expensive while also not being particularly good for competitive games, casual games, and any shade in between. Yes, players can invest tons of effort and compromises to make something work in 40k. But, if that's the case, wouldn't it be incredibly obvious that the state of 40k is flat out bad? If you need to put in that much effort to make the game work when nearly every other game currently on the market works out of the box the way its intended to, it means 40k is not in a good position.

You can like it all you want, and that's fine, but again, seeing as this thread is about the state of 40k, most people agree its not good or at least could be dramatically improved. Your own arguments support that statement too. If the game needs tons of compromising and only playing with close friends and ensuring you're all on the same power level and developing your own sets of FAQs and other houserules, that pretty much makes the game, well, bad.

Oh, posting politely might help your case. Right now, its been a lot of personal attacks and snide remarks with no backing.

First off, it does not make much effort to set up a balanced game of 40k. Second, I question how you can judge the state of 40k off this thread. Just because the loud minority rants and raves on these forums does not mean the game is bad.
Lastly, I'm sorry that you gain nothing from my posts. Possibly you're unable to see someone else's point of view if it conflicts with your own?

If it doesn't take much effort, why do most tournaments have a 15 page FAQ and change core rules of the game? Oh BTW, even with those changes, it's still the same 3-5 armies all over the top tables at every event.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Salous wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" it does not make much effort to set up a balanced game of 40k. "

Patently untrue, as many different people have different definitions of "balanced".

It is true that people have different definitions of balanced. However, a little communication and social skills will solve 90% of those situations. At the end of the day, social skills is the key. There is no help for people unable or unwilling to do it.

90% is an extremely overoptimistic number. Just look at the disagreement on the boards about which armies are the weakest/strongest. Also, what's the negotiation for BA vs Eldar look like? Do BA get double pts? Triple pts? 1.5 X pts? How bad is bad?

The Eldar player can't bring Scatbikers, Wraithknights, and anything with a D-weapon. The Blood Angel player can bring whatever they want.

OK, I'm an Eldar player. I own about 2600 points of Eldar, with about 2000 points being scatter bikes, Wraithknights and wraithguard. I don't want to play a 600 point game and I'm guessing you don't either. Now what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What should we call this kind of attitude? l2talk? L2negotation?L2Beg? L2Social? Talkmoar?

Most people call it "normal behaviour". Every time you play social drinking games with people, you discuss rules first because they tend to vary by geography and social group. King's cup, beer pong, spoons, whatever.

Online gamer-types are notorious for poor social adjustment, and that's not exactly a news flash


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
For example, you can't have a table top RPG tournament. It's just impossible. You can set up 40K tournaments. The game is supposed to be set so you can literally bring what ever you want to the field and play a nice friendly game. But it's not like that at all.

I've seen battle reports that focus on custom missions and multi-game narrative, and honestly it looks a lot more fun (to me at least) than typical ITC Maelstrom type games.

I didn't pay a company $130 for the rules to play beer pong. If I did, I would expect them to work as written without a 20 minute discussion with each opponent prior to the game... These comparisons are asinine.

You can't ask this question in a forum. The people happy with the game are, for the most part, not here, and are not vocal. People love to bitch, and they will continue to bitch until everyone dislikes what they dislike as much as they do. dakka has a ton of these people, and they are quite devoted. ready for the backlash

 Brennonjw wrote:
You can't ask this question in a forum. The people happy with the game are, for the most part, not here, and are not vocal. People love to bitch, and they will continue to bitch until everyone dislikes what they dislike as much as they do. dakka has a ton of these people, and they are quite devoted. ready for the backlash

Did you not read Alpharius' Rule #1 warnings, or do you just think you're exempt because you're on the "right" side of this argument?

/Ready for attacking response (since this is apparently how we justify our arguments)

Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

Yoyoyo wrote:
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

Labeling other people's opinions as "bitching" isn't the truth at any point. If you feel like you disagree with another poster's points, go after their arguments, not the poster.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

Got to admit you are right. The way some of the Space Marine and Eldar players whine around here is atrocious.

Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama

Pops up about once a fortnight in 40k general to be honest. Best to have a quick read, contribute if you feel appropriate and move on.

Man I wish evidence changed minds Accolade.

The real issue is people invest ego and emotion in their opinons, at that point they meet light with more heat if you know what I'm saying.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Man I wish evidence changed minds Accolade.

The real issue is people invest ego and emotion in their opinons, at that point they meet light with more heat if you know what I'm saying.

Fair enough. I do understand the core of what you're saying- most of what goes on in the 40k General Discussions ends up going in circles for the most part. I just try to not let stuff "rustle my jimmies" as much anymore.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

There would be less drama if one side stopped derailing these threads with insults.

 wuestenfux wrote:
game.

The only downside are their miniatures - hard plastic or metal.

or... *shivers* ...finecast...

 Filch wrote:
I am wondering how many people have pressed the ignore button on me. I pressed it on myself by accident n dont know how to un ignore my own posts.

Wow. That has to be the funniest thing I've read in a while.

Looks like someone has already posted the solution, so I won't do so again.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

Well "chronic windbags" tends to infer those people have nothing useful to say... an opinion not a fact.
Remember these forums are discussions of people's hobbies, time we have to fight for out of the busy day that can easily claim priority over the "man dollies".
It is a completely emotional thing motivating people to play and participate, not so much logic so emotions can run high especially when their fun is attacked or made light of.

To do with the General State of 40k: many of older fogies like myself signed-on to 40k around 5th edition or lower (me 2nd edition) which some other poster I would agree were more war-games then than the RPG/wargame mix of "forging the narrative".

There is a wee bit too much random than choice in the current state of affairs than what we had in the past which raises some dissatisfaction.

What is not too helpful either is that the game management have been proving readily that their main focus is on the models not the rules: they have not lied in that regard.

That same focus on "premium" product has begun to alienate players due to their financial situation, some can simply not justify the cost.
We have enough discussions of elitism and the dreaded neckbeard label but GW product in general is becoming more exclusive (which is their intent!) when we all want it inclusive and have more players to play against and support the game.

Passing judgment on those who are obviously excited about a topic seems unfair when we are judged enough by others on this alternative type of hobby.
The real death to any game is indifference, the downward trend in rules will easily change the "immature whining" to silence as we have moved on to other games.

Now where did I pack away my X-wing stuff??

Yoyoyo wrote:
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

I feel this article from Cracked is appropriate.

Esp. this part.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

Now sub "show" for "GW" and/or "40k" in there.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son

It really isn't. An insult is no less insulting just because you happen to think it's true.


So how about we get back to actually discussing the game rather than insulting others for having different opinions to our own, hmm?

The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.

The game has a lot of problems; bloat, bad rules, allies, power creep, unbalanced, bad tournament game, bad pick up game, random this and that, to much like rock,paper scissors.
I stopped playing the game during 6th, the December to remember was the last straw for me. I relied on pick up games most of the time and the store I went to was about spamming the most broken stuff from your codex. I played orks (since 2nd ed) at that time and just didn't want to keep up with the arms race, it was just to much pay to win for my likings. Had high hopes of getting back into the game when the new ork codex was released but after I bought it, read it,my dreams where quickly crushed. Also the prices on the new models was just to much money to spend for the value. There are certain things I miss about the game but the bad out weighted the good in recent times.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.

Some people certainly find the game fun, or it would have disappeared by now. There are other people who don't find the game fun, because for various reasons they find that fun has gone out of it in the past few years and editions.

Without any figures it is only speculation, but I think a fair proportion of the people who find current 40K fun have come to it in the past two editions. In other words it is now the kind of game they like.

There are two key questions:

1. Is it possible to structure the game in a way that would satisfy both groups of players? My answer is yes. Most of what is wrong (IMO) with 6th and 7th edition 40K could be solved by my five point plan. To summarise my view, things like Flyers and Formations should be optional extras, not part of the core rules. This would allow me to ignore them and also allow people who like them to play with them.

2. If GW don't adopt my five point plan, can 40K survive on the audience of people who like its current state? The answer to this is not clear, but given the continuing loss of sales since 6th edition came in, I suspect it may not.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.

Some people certainly find the game fun, or it would have disappeared by now. There are other people who don't find the game fun, because for various reasons they find that fun has gone out of it in the past few years and editions.

Without any figures it is only speculation, but I think a fair proportion of the people who find current 40K fun have come to it in the past two editions. In other words it is now the kind of game they like.

There are two key questions:

1. Is it possible to structure the game in a way that would satisfy both groups of players? My answer is yes. Most of what is wrong (IMO) with 6th and 7th edition 40K could be solved by my five point plan. To summarise my view, things like Flyers and Formations should be optional extras, not part of the core rules. This would allow me to ignore them and also allow people who like them to play with them.

2. If GW don't adopt my five point plan, can 40K survive on the audience of people who like its current state? The answer to this is not clear, but given the continuing loss of sales since 6th edition came in, I suspect it may not.

Anecdotally, 40K seems to be loosing a sub-set of players - tournament players, and club/store pickup gamers. Nova Open 40K attendance was down 30%-ish, whilst overall attendance was up. Blogs and podcasts have closed (I miss the 11th Company) and locally my nearest club which was mostly 40K has seen X-Wing and Bolt Action overtake it

GW seem to be dealing with this by cutting costs and increasing profits on units sold to the remaining player base. How long they can continue down this road is debatable.
They really need to bring fresh blood in to replace the players they're alienating, something that they don't appear to do very well

Removed by insaniak. It may have sounded like it, but it wasn't just a suggestion.

I think things will be looking up for 40k in the near future, if the Tau stuff is any indication so far. What I really like about it is that it's not raised in power level, but rather just different, in that you gain power in one area, but lose it in another, so you get more choices based on what you want your army to do.

That being said, I'd really like to see GW do some more FAQ style of things for the game as a whole to make it more tournament friendly for a wider audience. They could even call in the ITC guys, and the Nova guys, and have a sort of meeting with them in order to create formats for the game. After all, the thing that saved MTG in the early days was literally creating formats, and they also allow for balance later down the line when you have more data points, without making parts of a codex completely useless, since you can have a "Power Overwhelming" format that allows unrestricted (or very minimally restricted) things to be done within the base rule set (Aka Vintage, which is a format I love), while also having an ITC format that's more restricted for better balance (Aka Standard) and as such they can have official FAQ tournament and play modes that people can reference easily. They can even have things like "Purist" formats where people can't use allies and have to build base codex lists.

Honestly, that's all they really have to do, is tighten up the game, and then use what the community created in order to help their game. Two of the most popular MTG formats is currently Commander and Cube, both were created by the community and eventually adopted by Wizards, and both are predominantly casual experiences.

I wished WotC bought out GW n regulated the business. Then also launch a miniature with cards format.

Fit like 5x25cm bases on the back of a card with tiny portaits and then play Epic WH40k on the go mode. All the stats and rules are on the front of the card so you can pict it up and re read the rules if you forget.

The models would just act like active wound counters in a squad. If you dont have the models then you can use a bean or pebble.

Bonuses for having the models would be the ability to screen and provide cover to units behind it. And also just playing classic wh40k. Also, having models allow you to put them on the very edge of the card to get that half inch range advantage or that difficult angle of fire compared to the permanent clustered X formation on the card. heck lets make it so your models spill off the card as long as they have 2" coherency to spead out of blast templates.

combining 4 cards will give the top down out line of a rhino tank or any large vehicle. the player would need to use tape for 3 edges and leave one so it can be folded up like one of those Risk/monopoly game boards. Again the disadvantages would be the inability for this card tank to not confer cover bonus or line of sight blocking. also the guns do not swivel aside from their limited firing arcs things 3" tall completely blocks line of sight for it to shoot out. Essentially the card vehicles need to be out in the open. Having a model eliminates these intangible limitations.

I started with Dark Angels back in 3rd edition. I played through good times and bad times. 6th edition was a blast and the scene around here was very healthy. 7th edition is slowly killing the game.

The FLGS tournament scene has completely died off. There used to be 10-20 people playing every weekend and now there is only an occasional casual game going on between two people.

As for the casual scene. I used to play a lot. I was excited to use my new dark angel codex but haven't found a game since (not because of the codex but because everyone is either playing age of sigmar or other lcg's, cmg's, or board games).

Sad times :(

 Filch wrote:
I wished WotC bought out GW n regulated the business. Then also launch a miniature with cards format.

Fit like 5x25cm bases on the back of a card with tiny portaits and then play Epic WH40k on the go mode. All the stats and rules are on the front of the card so you can pict it up and re read the rules if you forget.

The models would just act like active wound counters in a squad. If you dont have the models then you can use a bean or pebble.

Bonuses for having the models would be the ability to screen and provide cover to units behind it. And also just playing classic wh40k. Also, having models allow you to put them on the very edge of the card to get that half inch range advantage or that difficult angle of fire compared to the permanent clustered X formation on the card. heck lets make it so your models spill off the card as long as they have 2" coherency to spead out of blast templates.

I think the one big thing GW seems to not do, that most other companies do, is promote an active tournament scene aimed at casual players. Just having a system to track wins/losses at a local gaming store is a huge boon most of the time, as even very casual RNG based games like Hearthstone still display some stats, while having a "tournament" mode that anyone can participate in while gaining minor prizes.