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JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
Look i get it, 2nd amendment hooray. But honestly, guns are far from well regulated, getting a Driver's license is a much stricter process than buying a guy down at your local shop.
That statement is absurd and demonstrably false. Is there a single federal law regarding obtaining a driver's license? There's an entire book of federal laws regarding gun ownership, I know I got my copy of them from the ATF when I got my 03 FFL. You don't have to have driver's license to buy a car but I have to go through several rigorous checks to buy a gun. You don't have to pass a criminal background check to get a driver's license, you do if you want to buy a gun. You don't have to answer all the questions on a form 4473 under penalty of federal prosecution to get a driver's license but you do to buy a gun. I can buy a car and give it to anyone I want, if I buy a gun for somebody it's a federal crime. There are numerous federal state and municipal restrictions on what kind of guns I can buy and what forms and permissions I need to buy them.
It's not easier to buy a gun than it is to get a driver's license or buy a car. It's an absurd comparison.
You guys all know that the CDC has not been allowed to do carry out research on gun violence for nearly 20 years now?
Basically meaning there is no data on ways mass shootings like this could be prevented, instead there is just opinions and anecdotes, where there should be empirical evidence on the best course of action.
Maybe there is a way that deaths could be avoided and the right to own weapons left intact, but if you don't allow the research to be done, you'll never know and people will continue to die.
This is really sad.
Still on the plus at least your country will remain sufficiently armed to overthrow the tyrannical regime that Trump would impose.
You have to pass several tests to get a driver's license, I assume.
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
SickSix wrote: You said 'plenty of people' and came up with one guy. Not to mention citing a left leaning site that references other left leaning sites.
So I can dismiss this as easily as others dismiss Fox News right?
The guy himself in the interview is the who stated there were others on campus with concealed weapons, not the website.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
As for automobiles, I agree drunk driving pentalties should be more severe.
Oh, so he saw the shooter?
He was in the room with the shooter?
Oh wait, he was in a different building on campus?
Yep, that's relevant.
He asked for a source, the article was quoted that there were multiple people, not just this one man on the campus at the time with concealed weapons, yet no 'good guy with a gun' did anything
Though in actuality its not really a 'gun free zone' if the state permits concealed carry on campuses in general
But again this is but deflection from the actual argument, I'm aware that any restrictions on guns wont be tolerated, so I'm still waiting for an answer from "Pro Gun" on what we can do to prevent these instances
Nothing needs to be done. The probability of dying in a *mass shooting* is so low that you would be crazy to even consider it as you go about your daily business.
You and your family would be better off abstaining from driving after 7 PM, not having a swimming pool, and living in a low crime area. I'm not posting this to be cute or anything. ..statistically speaking any of those things are more likely to kill you than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and dying in a mass shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 19:23:12
Abstract:
Since President Obama’s election the number of concealed handgun permits has soared, growing from 4.6 million in 2007 to over 12.8 million this year. Among the findings in our report:
-- The number of concealed handgun permits is increasing at an ever- increasing rate. Over the past year, 1.7 million additional new permits have been issued – a 15.4% increase in just one single year. This is the largest ever single-year increase in the number of concealed handgun permits.
-- 5.2% of the total adult population has a permit.
-- Five states now have more than 10% of their adult population with concealed handgun permits.
-- In ten states, a permit is no longer required to carry in all or virtually all of the state. This is a major reason why legal carrying handguns is growing so much faster than the number of permits.
-- Since 2007, permits for women has increased by 270% and for men by 156%.
-- Some evidence suggests that permit holding by minorities is increasing more than twice as fast as for whites.
-- Between 2007 and 2014, murder rates have fallen from 5.6 to 4.2 (preliminary estimates) per 100,000. This represents a 25% drop in the murder rate at the same time that the percentage of the adult population with permits soared by 156%. Overall violent crime also fell by 25 percent over that period of time.
-- States with the largest increase in permits have seen the largest relative drops in murder rates.
-- Concealed handgun permit holders are extremely law-abiding. In Florida and Texas, permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors or felonies at one-sixth the rate that police officers are convicted.
TL;DR: 1% increase in adults with CCW = 25% reduction in murder rate.
TL;DR: Written by John Lott and the Crime Prevention Research Center.
I would suggest you make even a cursory look into his research and standings, as it makes his findings a LOT more questionable.
I would suggest that you'd actually download it and read it. I see no major red flags.
I did download it. I did read it.
And the fact that it's John Lott is a major red flag. This is a guy who has been accused, multiple times, of being in the pocket of gun rights advocates and has published multiple papers where the numbers do not add up--and where other academics have not been able to duplicate the results. This is also a guy who created a sockpuppet account to defend his research and proclaimed himself "the best teacher" that the sockpuppet had.
Seriously Whembly. Find another source that makes the same conclusions he does, without citing Lott or his organization's research. It's likely impossible to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 19:24:12
Look i get it, 2nd amendment hooray. But honestly, guns are far from well regulated, getting a Driver's license is a much stricter process than buying a guy down at your local shop.
That statement is absurd and demonstrably false. Is there a single federal law regarding obtaining a driver's license? There's an entire book of federal laws regarding gun ownership, I know I got my copy of them from the ATF when I got my 03 FFL. You don't have to have driver's license to buy a car but I have to go through several rigorous checks to buy a gun. You don't have to pass a criminal background check to get a driver's license, you do if you want to buy a gun. You don't have to answer all the questions on a form 4473 under penalty of federal prosecution to get a driver's license but you do to buy a gun. I can buy a car and give it to anyone I want, if I buy a gun for somebody it's a federal crime. There are numerous federal state and municipal restrictions on what kind of guns I can buy and what forms and permissions I need to buy them.
It's not easier to buy a gun than it is to get a driver's license or buy a car. It's an absurd comparison.
Buying a car is not the same as applying for a government issued license to drive it. Nor did I mention in my argument buying the vehicle itself was regulated, buying a car isnt . And driving without a license is a crime as well.
Getting the license to drive it is regulated by the government, including mandated classroom training, government written form tests, mandated amount of time behind the wheel training and a government mandated driving test with an employee of the government in the car with you and multiple forms to be filled out.
But i understand that you may confuse buying a car than with getting the license yourself because the actual steps to get the license doesnt support your argument. And I have my State booklet about vehicle codes from when i got my license still. And driving without a license is also a crime
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 19:26:04
Basically meaning there is no data on ways mass shootings like this could be prevented, instead there is just opinions and anecdotes, where there should be empirical evidence on the best course of action.
Maybe there is a way that deaths could be avoided and the right to own weapons left intact, but if you don't allow the research to be done, you'll never know and people will continue to die.
This is really sad.
Still on the plus at least your country will remain sufficiently armed to overthrow the tyrannical regime that Trump would impose.
-Shrike- wrote: You have to pass several tests to get a driver's license, I assume.
They are joke. Clearly demonstrated by the millions of deaths and car wrecks every year.
Except the parallel parking test. Thats a bear if you live in the South. I've never parallel parked ever. Thats why I work, to get good parking.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-Shrike- wrote: You have to pass several tests to get a driver's license, I assume.
They are joke. Clearly demonstrated by the millions of deaths and car wrecks every year.
Background checks and forms for guns are a joke, clearly demonstrated by the (number) of deaths and injuries every year. That either set of tests and checks can't/don't prevent death and injury doesn't mean that the measures aren't there, which could lead to a driving license being more difficult to obtain than a concealed carry license. Do you actually have to be tested on whether you know how to properly operate a firearm?
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
The Umpqua shooter has been named as Chris Harper Mercer, a 26-year-old who lived with his mother at an apartment only a few miles from the college.
American media reports said he was born in England and moved to the US at a young age: his stepsister, Carmen Nesnick, told CBS Los Angeles that he travelled to the US as a young boy. Other accounts report that Nesnick specified that Harper-Mercer was born in England.
Harper-Mercer was the son of Ian Mercer and Laurel Margaret Harper. Mercer and Harper filed for divorce on 6 June 2006. He appears to have left an online footprint that hints at interest in mass shootings as well as apparent support for the IRA.
He also appears to have been a prolific user of the file-sharing system Bittorrent.
An email address, “ironcross45@gmail.com”, was found to be associated with a Chris Harper Mercer of Winchester, Oregon, via a public records search. That address is linked to an account on the torrent upload site kat-ph.proxy-x.com, which bears the username “Lithium_Love”.
The final video uploaded by Lithium_Love to the torrent site, just three days ago, was a BBC documentary called Surviving Sandy Hook about the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, in 2012.
Other uploads include PDFs of the occult magazine Phenomena, conspiracy-themed documentaries including Lost Secrets of the Illuminati, and assorted soft pornography.
There is also a blog attached to the upload account. The first entry was posted on 6 July 2015 and is titled “The material world is a lie.” It says: “Most people will spend hours standing in front of stores just to buy a new iphone … I used to be like that, always concerned about what clothes I had, rather than whether or not I was happy. But not anymore.
“Since then I have learned the truth that such attachments are falsehoods and will only bring misery. This is my first blog post, there will be more to come.”
Other blogposts complain about the uploading habits of other users. Another bemoans the death of horror filmmaker Wes Craven.
A Myspace page bearing Mercer’s name is filled with pictures of masked gunmen and references to the IRA, including a picture of the front page of a the Irish republican newspaper An Phoblacht, bearing the headline “British Army Could Not Defeat IRA”. Another photo to the page carries the words “IRA undefeated army”.
The page gives Mercer’s home location as Torrance, California. A Whitepages page – which tracks addresses and phone numbers – gives two addresses for Mercer: one in Torrance, California, and the other in Winchester, Oregon. The latter is also the address associated with the registration of the “ironcross45” email address.
Using that email address, Mercer also appears to have advertised for penpals on the website Morgue Pals, which describes itself as “the hippest place for pen pals who identify with any sort of alternative culture”.
In his advertisement, Mercer, then aged 20, said he was looking for email pals and described his hobbies as “music movies and news”.
In his profile, he described himself as: “I’m 20 years old, in college, I like to listen to music, mostly goth/punk/industrial/electronic, and I love to watch movies, Horror movies are the best, but i also like some action films, depending on the type, and I like crime dramas as well.“
He added: “I’m looking for penpals who are similar to me, but anyone is welcome to email me.”
A posting on the Spiritual Passions dating and social networking site uses a picture that appears to be Mercer under the user name IRONCROSS45, which Mercer also used as his email.
He described himself on the site as a 26-year-old, mixed-race “man looking for a woman”. He said he was “not religious, but spiritual”, and was a “teetotaler” living with his parents and a conservative Republican. Socially, he said, he was “shy at first” and “better in small groups”. He described himself as “always dieting” and looking for “the yin to my yang”.
The email address Ironcross45@gmail.com is also associated with a crowdfunding webpage to help the user pay for uploading and storing bittorrent files for downloading videos as well. According to the cached version of the webpage, the most recent video uploaded was Collection Of Hot Lesbians (Nudes) Vol. 8.
Two phone numbers associated with the name appeared to have been disconnected.
A profile on the site belonging to Mercer on the website Spiritual Singles, which advertises itself as “a free online dating & social networking site specifically for spiritual singles,” and bears a picture of the same person as Mercer’s Myspace page, the alleged killer describes himself politically as a “conservative, republican” whose hobbies are “internet, killing zombies, movies, music, reading” and who lives with parents. In the profile, the personality type he is looking for is “intellectual, punk, introvert, loner, lover, geek, nerd” with an “individuality” of “piercings, psychic, tattoos, vampire”. His preferred religious views are “Pagan, Wiccan, Not Religious, but Spiritual” as well.
On the image-sharing message-board 4chan, rumours were flying on Thursday night that the killer may have been one of their own. In an anonymous post at 1:19am on Thursday morning on the /r9k board – all posts to 4chan are anonymous – someone said “Some of you guys are alright. Don’t go to school tomorrow if you are in the northwest.”
There is no way of verifying that the post came from the shooter.
A spokesperson for the Douglas County sheriff’s department, which is handling the investigation, said it could “neither confirm nor deny” at this point that they were investigating the post, though federal officials reportedly told the New York Times that they were doing so.
It is not known if Mercer was affiliated with the college, but his name was listed as a production assistant for an upcoming production of the Noel Coward play Blithe Spirit at Umpqua.
The gunman’s father, Ian Mercer, said he was “just as shocked as everybody” at his son’s actions. Speaking from his home in the US, he told reporters: “I’ve just been talking to the police and the FBI and all the details I have right now is what you guys [reporters] have already.
“I can’t answer any questions right now, I don’t want to answer any questions right now. It’s been a devastating day, devastating for me and my family. Shocked is all I can say.”
TheCustomLime wrote: And alcohol. Let's ban alcohol because it kills a ton of people too.
Indeed. We need a prohibition against all types of spirituous liquors. What could go wrong?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
CptJake wrote: Their definition of 'mass shooting' is deliberately chosen to make a political point in an emotional way.
Most people see 'mass shooting' and think of Sandy Hook, not a drive by in Chicago that manages to hit 4 people, or some slob who offs his wife, two kids and then himself. The vast majority of that 296 number are cases much closer to the latter than to Sandy Hook.
The definition of a mass shooting is 4 or more people, it was used this way in 2013. With the same definition the number is already up and there will be a lot more in the coming months. They might just be 4 people groupings, or they can be sandy hook numbers, only time will tell. Isn't it sad we can predict how many more there will be. Because nothing is being done to slow the trend, or stop the trend.
Uh... The US has been trending downwards...
Besides: Mass shooting isn't unique to US... and the worst rates, are countries having more restrictive Gun Controls.
That is not showing a downward trend, and look at columns 2 and 4, america is far in the lead above all other shown countries combined. America leading the world in rampage fatalities and incidents.
CptJake wrote: Their definition of 'mass shooting' is deliberately chosen to make a political point in an emotional way.
Most people see 'mass shooting' and think of Sandy Hook, not a drive by in Chicago that manages to hit 4 people, or some slob who offs his wife, two kids and then himself. The vast majority of that 296 number are cases much closer to the latter than to Sandy Hook.
The definition of a mass shooting is 4 or more people, it was used this way in 2013. With the same definition the number is already up and there will be a lot more in the coming months. They might just be 4 people groupings, or they can be sandy hook numbers, only time will tell. Isn't it sad we can predict how many more there will be. Because nothing is being done to slow the trend, or stop the trend.
Uh... The US has been trending downwards...
Besides: Mass shooting isn't unique to US... and the worst rates, are countries having more restrictive Gun Controls.
That is not showing a downward trend, and look at columns 2 and 4, america is far in the lead above all other shown countries combined. America leading the world in rampage fatalities and incidents.
In raw numbers... sure. But not compared to overall population... which is more meaningful.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well this thread is going exactly where I figured it would, and it was only on page 2 yesterday!
"We need to do something about this!"
"What?"
"Better gun regulation?"
"Wont work, muh freedoms, terrorists win, not proven"
"Ok what do you have in mind?"
"Uh...Muh freedoms, dont oppress me"
Conversation gets dropped, 6 months later it happens again.
Look i get it, 2nd amendment hooray. But honestly, guns are far from well regulated, getting a Driver's license is a much stricter process than buying a guy down at your local shop.
There's a number of reasons for that. Getting a drivers license isn't required to simply own a car, rather, it's a method of regulation for usage of public resources, in this case, the road system. If I just want to own a car, I don't need a drivers license for that. What I need the license for is to take it out and drive it on public roads.
Likewise, it's hard to license something that is ostensibly a "right" without destroying it as a "right".
What can be done at this point other than the typical shouting match between the left/right, between pro gun or no gun, the NRA vs the PTA etc?
Probably not much, at least in regards to direct gun control legislation.
The only preventative (as opposed to retributive) option the law really has is confiscation. All the background checks and the like in the world aren't going to mean squat if the person has no record (as in most of these cases) or kills someone and steals the victim's weapons (as in Sandy Hook).
That's really ultimately what it boils down to. Ultimately, the problem isn't with guns, again, these sort of public massacres are a relatively recent phenomenon. My grandfather could bring his rifle to school int he 1920's and nobody thought twice about it. We have a changing society with changing social roles and there's obviously some things that simply aren't being addressed. These shootings are a cry for relevancy from people who are provisioned for the basics in life but are otherwise disconnected from normal society.
That said, there's also some other things that could be done. If people *really* feel they need to reduce the number of weapons in circulation, and feel that it really should be a top public safety priority, then buyback guns at exorbitant prices. Instead of offering a $100 Grocery Store gift card for a handgun, offer $3000 cash, no taxes, no questions.Watch guns come pouring in by the millions. But nobody wants to do anything like that. Partly it's because the money really can be spent more productively in other ways, partly its because both sides like keeping it around as a wedge issue.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
What is the site? It's blocked on my network for pornography/nudity (allegedly, not always accurate).
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
-Shrike- wrote: You have to pass several tests to get a driver's license, I assume.
One written test, an eyesight test and a driving test when you get your first license as a teenager. After that you have to pass a written test and eye exam again if you move to a new state. Once you pass your first driver's license exam in a state and get a driver's license you can just renew again when you license expires by mail but you need to turn in your renewal form in person if you want a photo on your license, although it does vary with some states requiring you to retake the written test when you renew and most states require elderly people to retake the eye exam when they renew.
CptJake wrote: Their definition of 'mass shooting' is deliberately chosen to make a political point in an emotional way.
Most people see 'mass shooting' and think of Sandy Hook, not a drive by in Chicago that manages to hit 4 people, or some slob who offs his wife, two kids and then himself. The vast majority of that 296 number are cases much closer to the latter than to Sandy Hook.
The definition of a mass shooting is 4 or more people, it was used this way in 2013. With the same definition the number is already up and there will be a lot more in the coming months. They might just be 4 people groupings, or they can be sandy hook numbers, only time will tell. Isn't it sad we can predict how many more there will be. Because nothing is being done to slow the trend, or stop the trend.
Uh... The US has been trending downwards...
Besides: Mass shooting isn't unique to US... and the worst rates, are countries having more restrictive Gun Controls.
That is not showing a downward trend, and look at columns 2 and 4, america is far in the lead above all other shown countries combined. America leading the world in rampage fatalities and incidents.
In raw numbers... sure. But not compared to overall population... which is more meaningful.
in overall population all the other countries listed equal that of the US. But lets look at what france is doing, france is kicking americas ass, lets borrow from their gun laws.
CptJake wrote: Their definition of 'mass shooting' is deliberately chosen to make a political point in an emotional way.
Most people see 'mass shooting' and think of Sandy Hook, not a drive by in Chicago that manages to hit 4 people, or some slob who offs his wife, two kids and then himself. The vast majority of that 296 number are cases much closer to the latter than to Sandy Hook.
The definition of a mass shooting is 4 or more people, it was used this way in 2013. With the same definition the number is already up and there will be a lot more in the coming months. They might just be 4 people groupings, or they can be sandy hook numbers, only time will tell. Isn't it sad we can predict how many more there will be. Because nothing is being done to slow the trend, or stop the trend.
Uh... The US has been trending downwards...
Besides: Mass shooting isn't unique to US... and the worst rates, are countries having more restrictive Gun Controls.
That is not showing a downward trend, and look at columns 2 and 4, america is far in the lead above all other shown countries combined. America leading the world in rampage fatalities and incidents.
In raw numbers... sure. But not compared to overall population... which is more meaningful.
in overall population all the other countries listed equal that of the US. But lets look at what france is doing, france is kicking americas ass, lets borrow from their gun laws.
Nah... we're good.
Heck, the French were lucky a couple American bros were on a particular train ride. Things could've been a lot worse...eh?
Let's guide the debate back towards this event...
Via twittah:
U.S. Army says the #UCC gunman flunked out of basic training in 2008. Failed to meet the min admin standards. pic.twitter.com/QcZ5gKhN1p
-Shrike- wrote: You have to pass several tests to get a driver's license, I assume.
Or one.
One time in your entire life.
Usually a written exam which is multiple choice and really simple. Even foreigners not familiar with the US way of doing things can pass it with relative ease. After that is the driving test. Assuming you have ever driven a car prior to that point, you should be able to pass it as well.
Still, even less stringent is the State ID that you can get at the DMV. No written or driving tests required.
I wonder if I wouldn't be easier (and perhaps more productive) if we were able to restrict a different right in order to curb these mass shootings: the right of freedom of the press. Would it be possible to pass some sort of law that limits what the press can report on for national security reasons? We do it with military intelligence. Could we also do it with domestic violence like this?
For example, the press could report the story, and interview willing family victims, but the name and identity of the shooter could not be revealed or discussed in the news. Nor could the actual details of the specific actions. It might limit the celebritization of these killers.
WrentheFaceless wrote: You'd think that chart would at least use other countries with comparable populations.
How many countries have 300mm people or more?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
3000
4000 
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