Bionic or Regrown limb

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**Cursed Founding**

I simply wanted to know what type of limb replacements would be more effective for a space marine and why. I mean, bionics are strong and such but wouldn't they be more agile and comfortable with a cloned organic version? Is this even possible?

**oldzoggy**

I have seen no vat grown organs in non traitor legions. They might be there but I have just not seen them. Mixing organic materials from different individuals smells like heresy to me but I could be wrong. I do have seen good quality bionics for those who can afford them.

**gwarsh41**

On marines, I would imagine there might be some issue with the gene seed being some crazy insane thing no one understands. If a blood angel gets a cloned leg, the geneseed might reject it and jack up the dude.

As for non astartes, its the war effort, and cloning is pretty expensive, after all, you need the dudes tissue, then time to clone it, then time to attach it. Where as with a mechanical attachment, you just chop off the old arm, wire the new one to the stump and you are good to get back into the battle.

I am willing to bet that 99% of all limb replacements were done mid battle. Then those who got them, are just content to still be alive, or got used to the mechanical arm. I mean, with astartes, instead of putting them in a hospital for grievous wounds, they put them in a dreadnought.

**Kahnawake**

Bionics will one day be easier to produce than stem-cell based organs and body parts.

cheers
Kahnawake

**Cursed Founding**

I guess you have a point there. So, they're faster to make, easy to repair, more durable, stronger, probably not faster but can incorporate all sorts of technology. Could also be the reason why the iron hands are so crazy about them.

**oldzoggy**

There are genetors who are fond of manipulating flesh instead of metal but I'm not that familiar with the fine line of mainstream genetors and radical genetors.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Genetor

**Grey Templar**

I can't recall any mention of Marines being given a cloned replacement limb, or any other part. But I have seen a lot of bionics.

My guess is they probably do bionics almost exclusively. A Marine can't be left waiting for months for his new arm. He needs it now so he can go back to fighting. Plus Marines have the best of the best in Bionics access, so its not like they lose much.

**jhe90**

Also with space marine healing ability, even if fitting bionics is not entirely without trauma they recover quickly and will not be out of action for long.

**LumenPraebeo**

I'm guessing if cloning for space marines was viable, then bionics would be temporary until they have the cloned body part ready for surgery. But I'm also guessing that their geneseed modified bodies are too complicated to replicate any body parts for. Maybe they can do transplants. Doesn't seem likely, but just maybe.

**Wyzilla**

Depends. On an Astartes a cloned limb would be preferable if possible due to it being faster and less clumsy- bionics are physically stronger but enough of them will make you less swift like the elite of the Iron Hands. But with normal humans the speed loss is negligible/nonexistent as they lack an Astartes' augmented nervous system.

**kaszak**

Can you even clone a limb for Astartes? For normal dudes it would be easy, but Marine's limbs are enhanced by the geneseed, with tougher skeleton, black carapace etc. If they simply cloned the limb from his DNA, it would just be a normal human limb (cuz geneseed does not change the genetic code), the marine with such thing transplanted would look like reverse Faptau. Unless you can somehow induce geneseed enhancement in the vat (in the universe where such experiments usually end up in extreme mutation or Chaos corruption), the bionics are the only viable option.

**oldzoggy**

Cloning in 40k might not be easy at all. Lexicanum suggests it is sort of a lost art.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Replicae

Automatically Appended Next Post:

If they simply cloned the limb from his DNA, it would just be a normal human limb (cuz geneseed does not change the genetic code),

Quite sure that that is not the problem with cloning them. The problem would be to keep the strains pure, avoid aging effects and unwanted mutations. Cloning is not as simple as popular science wants you to believe it to be, even with our current understanding of biotechnology its hard if not impossible to avoid all these problems. Trying to clone space marines in 40k with only fragmented and warped knowledge of the technology would be a risky thing to do. The failed experiments of Corax might just show how risky it really is.

**jhe90**

A whole human is different to a single limb through, a basic human limb is not as complex as a marine one.

Though such level of work is probably for inquisition or similar high ups only.

**Grey Templar**

jhe90 wrote:
A whole human is different to a single limb through, a basic human limb is not as complex as a marine one.

Though such level of work is probably for inquisition or similar high ups only.

Actually, a Marine's limbs are relatively simple. The only thing really special about them is his bones are stronger and so are his muscles, which is caused by the organs in his torso. There aren't any specific augmentations done in those areas, all the organs are in the body cavity and head and neck. If anything could get clone replaced, it would be an arm.

**jhe90**

Grey Templar wrote:
jhe90 wrote:
A whole human is different to a single limb through, a basic human limb is not as complex as a marine one.

Though such level of work is probably for inquisition or similar high ups only.

Actually, a Marine's limbs are relatively simple. The only thing really special about them is his bones are stronger and so are his muscles, which is caused by the organs in his torso. There aren't any specific augmentations done in those areas, all the organs are in the body cavity and head and neck. If anything could get clone replaced, it would be an arm.

True, i thought more cloning and or upgrading the bones etc, the muscles are not normal, and yes they are human just a awful lot bigger and enhanced. The bones and muscle technicaly is not DNA based but influenced by genseeed.
Unless its very grim dark and fitting but grew a vat grown brain dead body marine like you do to clone genseeeds and cut the finished limb off?

**Grey Templar**

Thats probably how you would do it if you did. But as I said earlier bionics are faster and just as good, or better, so its not likely done very often.

**oldzoggy**

Actually, a Marine's limbs are relatively simple

How are they simple ? You would still need a tech priest with a love for flesh instead of metal and a good knowledge of stemcell technology, dna damage repair and a way to detect unwanted mutations. The hard thing isn't the amount of tissue or organs the dna encodes for. It is correctly using biotechnology in a world that has the tendency to generate hellish mutations, with on a incoherent copy of some scraps of a lab manual and sup par tools while you don't a clue how any of it really works.

**Grey Templar**

Apothecaries would be the ones doing this, not the Mechanicus. And yes, the limbs are relatively simple compared to the other parts of his body.

**Furyou Miko**

Every other vat-grown or clone-based piece of Imperial technology has been provided by the Adeptus Mechanicus Ordo Biologis. I don't see why Space Marines would be any different.

**Grey Templar**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Every other vat-grown or clone-based piece of Imperial technology has been provided by the Adeptus Mechanicus Ordo Biologis. I don't see why Space Marines would be any different.

Provided, but not operated by. There isn't any reason a chapter couldn't have their own cloning equipment, and they certainly wouldn't allow outsiders to be involved in this type of process.

**jhe90**

Grey Templar wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
Every other vat-grown or clone-based piece of Imperial technology has been provided by the Adeptus Mechanicus Ordo Biologis. I don't see why Space Marines would be any different.

Provided, but not operated by. There isn't any reason a chapter couldn't have their own cloning equipment, and they certainly wouldn't allow outsiders to be involved in this type of process.

Also given some chapters genetic flaws, they keep those secret, space wolves would tell a admech adept or tech priest about the whole inner wolf, crazy were wolf thing or the blood angels flaws. Such flaws may have to be counted in doing the cloning correctly

**oldzoggy**

I completely agree with you that most chapters will protect their genetic material. This will most likely exclude grafts from external sources. Thus any spare limbs have to be created by the chapter Apothecaries themselves. Limiting the available knowledge of genetics even more.

The importance of the progenoid glands suggests that most Apothecaries are at best as in the dark as most low ranking Biologis or Genetors about the dark arts of biotechnology. There are no known sources ( at least non I know of ) that suggest that these glorified field medics / organ retrievers are capable of manufacturing space marine tissue without the use of a geneseed, or even capable of safely reprogramming geneseeds to anything else then its normal purpose.

**Grey Templar**

oldzoggy wrote:
I completely agree with you that most chapters will protect their genetic material. This will most likely exclude grafts from external sources. Thus any spare limbs have to be created by the chapter Apothecaries themselves. Limiting the available knowledge of genetics even more.

The importance of the progenoid glands suggests that most Apothecaries are at best as in the dark as most low ranking Biologis or Genetors about the dark arts of biotechnology. There are no known sources ( at least non I know of ) that suggest that these glorified field medics / organ retrievers are capable of manufacturing space marine tissue without the use of a geneseed, or even capable of safely reprogramming geneseeds to anything else then its normal purpose.

What makes you think thats a good litmus test for how capable you are?

Geneseed was freaking difficult for the Emperor to make from scratch. I'm sure there is insane technical knowledge involved in its everyday use by Space Marines. Apothecaries aren't "gorified field medics/organ retrievers". They're quite capable medical doctors, experienced in specialized Astartes biology.

**Iron_Captain**

Are you really asking the AdMech whether they prefer bionics or organics?

Also, Space Marines can't protect their genetic material, as they are required to send a regular tithe of their geneseed to the AdMech for inspection and safe-keeping. The AdMech knows about the flaws of the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and every other chapter in existence.
And as the AdMech has a monopoly on every and all technology in the Imperium of Man, a Space Marine chapter having its own cloning technology would be heresy unless licensed by the AdMech.

**Grey Templar**

Indeed. However the exact effects of the mutations aren't always known, and some chapters are suspected to cheat and falsify the geneseed tithe.

There are also many chapters which horde their own technology. Like the Blood Angels who hold the Baal Predator STC. The Salamanders are also formidable artisans in their own right.

Most chapters are also capable of manufacturing much of their own war material, like Rhinos, ammunition, and other weapons. Usually only really high end stuff like TDA or Land Raiders is received from the Mechanicus.

**oldzoggy**

Grey Templar wrote:
Most chapters are also capable of manufacturing much of their own war material, like Rhinos, ammunition, and other weapons. Usually only really high end stuff like TDA or Land Raiders is received from the Mechanicus.

Do you have any source for that ? The mechanicum novel suggests that even the humble bolter shells have to be produced by the mechanicum themselves, but there could have changed much after the herecy.

**Furyou Miko**

The Salamanders' Special Snowflake is that they make their own gear with the blessings of the AdMech. At some point this got flanderized to "Space Marines make their own gear because they're strong, independent monsters who don't need no Mechanicum" and the Salamanders got given the "Nice Guys" hat instead.

**Grey Templar**

oldzoggy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Most chapters are also capable of manufacturing much of their own war material, like Rhinos, ammunition, and other weapons. Usually only really high end stuff like TDA or Land Raiders is received from the Mechanicus.

Do you have any source for that ? The mechanicum novel suggests that even the humble bolter shells have to be produced by the mechanicum themselves, but there could have changed much after the herecy.

Its been part of the fluff for at least a decade. Go read the last few Space Marine codices.

Chapters are independent of the Mechanicus for most of their basic material needs. For more advanced equipment they will have a relationship with a nearby forge world to produce things like Land Raiders, space vessels, and plasma weaponry.

**aldo**

Well, if we go with FW's HH books, one of the reasons the IH were so crazy about bionics at first was because due to their geneseed they had a very low or zero rejection rate with them, which allowed them to get back into the fight sooner, of course later came the "The Flesh is Weak", but that doens't matter now, the point is, that if they had low/zero rejection to bionics, and it was a "special" thing they had (IW had a very low rejection rate too btw), and they prefered it because it allowed them to go back into the fight sooner, so it probably means that in at least some cases the other Legions used the harder to produce cloned parts, because of bionic rejection rates.

But its the HH, back when the grimdarkness was less dense.

**oldzoggy**

Its been part of the fluff for at least a decade. Go read the last few Space Marine codices.

So I did read the entire 7th codex space marines since that codex contained the most recent fluff if there should be a conflict.

This was the only thing I could find about the capacities of the Forge masters and their servants.

Spoiler:

And the salamanders

Spoiler:

So Space marine Forge masters are capable of rapairing stuff but only after a study at the Adeptus Mechanicus and the salamanders are are able to make their own bolters.
It seems that noting has changed since the mechanicum novel was published in 2008