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http://www.msf.org.uk/article/afghanistan-msf-staff-killed-and-hospital-partially-destroyed-in-kunduz

MSF had informed all fighting parties of hospital GPS coordinates

MSF condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific bombing of its hospital in Kunduz full of staff and patients.

MSF wishes to clarify that all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS Coordinates) of the MSF facilities - hospital, guesthouse, office and an outreach stabilization unit in Chardara (to the north-west of Kunduz).

As MSF does in all conflict contexts, these precise locations were communicated to all parties on multiple occasions over the past months, including most recently on 29 September.

The bombing continued for more than 30 minutes after American and Afghan military officials in Kabul and Washington were first informed. MSF urgently seeks clarity on exactly what took place and how this terrible event could have happened.

Update on hospital bombing casualties

It is with deep sadness that we confirm so far the death of nine MSF staff during the bombing last night of MSF’s hospital in Kunduz.

Latest update is that 37 people were seriously wounded during the bombing, of whom 19 are MSF staff.

Some of the most critically injured are being transferred for stabilisation to a hospital in Puli Khumri, two hours’ drive away. There are many patients and staff who remain unaccounted for. The numbers keep growing as we develop a clearer picture of the aftermath of this horrific bombing.

It's not clear who was responsible for the attack, but it's most likely to be the USA since the have the most aerial assets in the area (or perhaps the Afghan government who I think have a few planes/helicopters, but I think them being used for a sustained attack is unlikely)

so the question is when whoevers military screws up in such a major way what should be done with the personnel involved ?,

If you are working for a (free world) military that has been shown to repeatedly get it wrong and hit civillians do you need to demand more information from your senior officers before accepting their orders?

or should everybody shrug and say that's what MSF should expect for working in a war zone, perhaps they should pull out and leave it to native Afghan doctors and only provide equipment/supplies & funds not personel?

should the military who were responsible for the attack now have to provide replacement doctors even if they would be at high risk of kidnapping or attack?

Edit:

looks like it's confirmed it was a US air strike, and an 'accident' (Thread title updated)

The US has admitted that it may have killed workers from aid organisation Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF, also known as Doctors Without Borders) in an air raid in Afghanistan.

The medical charity said that three of its workers died after a hospital in the city of Kunduz, in the north of the war-torn country was hit.

NATO spokesman, Colonel Brian Tribus, said that US forces began the strike at 2.15am and confirmed that “collateral damage” may have occurred.

Don't refer to it as fething "collateral damage". Admit you screwed things up, or deny it was your forces, but telling people you bombed a hospital and shrugging it off as "collateral damage" is fething ridiculous.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Don't refer to it as fething "collateral damage". Admit you screwed things up, or deny it was your forces, but telling people you bombed a hospital and shrugging it off as "collateral damage" is fething ridiculous.

+1

"Oops", we "accidentally" bombed a hospital we knew to be there!

Bloody ridiculous.

Isn't the whole point of having a $600 billion defense budget to make sure our weapons our accurate enough not to cause "collateral damage" like this?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Isn't the whole point of having a $600 billion defense budget to make sure our weapons our accurate enough not to cause "collateral damage" like this?

Smart munitions are only as accurate as the coordinates given to the people dropping the munitions.

I'm really curious as to how "the bombing continued for more than 30 minutes", as that seems to suggest it was not bombing from fixed wing aircraft but rather it was missile strikes from helicopters or artillery.

In any regards, they might have been taking coordinates from people on the ground rather than stuff being passed from higher on.

We allow child rapists to do their thing on our bases, and now this. Let the Russians in and let's just leave.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Isn't the whole point of having a $600 billion defense budget to make sure our weapons our accurate enough not to cause "collateral damage" like this?

Smart munitions are only as accurate as the coordinates given to the people dropping the munitions.

And part of that $600 billion should also be making sure we have the right coordinates.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Isn't the whole point of having a $600 billion defense budget to make sure our weapons our accurate enough not to cause "collateral damage" like this?

Smart munitions are only as accurate as the coordinates given to the people dropping the munitions.

And part of that $600 billion should also be making sure we have the right coordinates.

You can have the best gear in the world, but it doesn't prevent the person observing the coordinators from punching in the wrong ones. And are we sure it was even our guys doing the observing? What if it was a third party?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Isn't the whole point of having a $600 billion defense budget to make sure our weapons our accurate enough not to cause "collateral damage" like this?

Smart munitions are only as accurate as the coordinates given to the people dropping the munitions.

And part of that $600 billion should also be making sure we have the right coordinates.

You can have the best gear in the world, but it doesn't prevent the person observing the coordinators from punching in the wrong ones. And are we sure it was even our guys doing the observing? What if it was a third party?

Then the selection process for whoever called in the strike is seriously flawed. Any way this scenario is painted, the negligance and incompetence borders on criminal.

I really dislike the term "collateral damage". It smacks of dishonesty.

Mix ups like this no doubt happen in wars fairly regularly - it may not be a war crime if it was an accident? If it was intentional, it surely is a war crime though.

Seems like the US Army refuses to even apologize.

Almost as outrageous as Russian bombing people, Egypt blowing up tourists, etc. Take your pick.

Most airstrikes in Afghanistan are rather fast and don't involve 30 minutes of bombardment. More like 1-3 bombs, maybe a JDAM if it really warrants destruction.
Most Artillery strikes in Afghanistan are precision munitions and usually 1-3 rounds (at least in my experience). I never saw a sustained TOT barrage.
Helicopters is also very unlikely for the 30 minute time table as again they only carry a handful of rockets and a chin turret.
I am basically calling the 30 minutes nonsense.....nonsense.

With that if this turns out to be more accurate then it at first appears then the military screwed the pooch. From the way the statement came out it sounds more like they were hitting a target near the hospital and a few rounds went short/long and hit the hospital, which by definition is called collateral damage. In this case I would call it unacceptable collateral damage.

And lastly with all of that said, it is not uncommon for someone in the chain to feth up a digit or two and have an airstrike/artillery strike hit a completely different area. 10 digit grids are only good grids if all the 10 digits are the right ones

The way I see it, if your target is close enough to a hospital where even a slight deviation could cause that hospital to get hit, you should probably reconsider bombing that target.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The way I see it, if your target is close enough to a hospital where even a slight deviation could cause that hospital to get hit, you should probably reconsider bombing that target.

i agree, but depending on which number gets confused....

Things are getting even murkier with an Afghan government spokesman claiming that the Taliban were using the hospital as a fire base (despite MSF saying the opposite),

and even less believably claiming that all (15 I don't remember the number he said, but it was something like that) Taliban fighters in the hospital were killed by the airstrike

(and how would they know being that the area is under Taliban control, and dead bodies inside a burning building would be invisible to even the best drones)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34435238

It's the Afghan government. They can be safely ignored when it comes to talking about success vs the Talibs, as it's almost guaranteed it's fairyland talk.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Things are getting even murkier with an Afghan government spokesman claiming that the Taliban were using the hospital as a fire base (despite MSF saying the opposite),

and even less believably claiming that all (15 I don't remember the number he said, but it was something like that) Taliban fighters in the hospital were killed by the airstrike

(and how would they know being that the area is under Taliban control, and dead bodies inside a burning building would be invisible to even the best drones)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34435238

thats actually fairly believable, remember HAMAS utilizing UN schools and hospitals to stage weapons and fighters? The Taliban used Schools and hospitals in our AO to facilitate IED training and such.

This is what happens when actors are allowed to join covert military operations to go under cover.



Spoilers for language. Nsfw

 Ghazkuul wrote:


With that if this turns out to be more accurate then it at first appears then the military screwed the pooch.

Indeed, although I feel we are missing a good bit of the story.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Things are getting even murkier with an Afghan government spokesman claiming that the Taliban were using the hospital as a fire base (despite MSF saying the opposite),

and even less believably claiming that all (15 I don't remember the number he said, but it was something like that) Taliban fighters in the hospital were killed by the airstrike

(and how would they know being that the area is under Taliban control, and dead bodies inside a burning building would be invisible to even the best drones)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34435238

thats actually fairly believable, remember HAMAS utilizing UN schools and hospitals to stage weapons and fighters? The Taliban used Schools and hospitals in our AO to facilitate IED training and such.

Yes, but then why would the medical organisation claim there was not a taliban in sight?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Things are getting even murkier with an Afghan government spokesman claiming that the Taliban were using the hospital as a fire base (despite MSF saying the opposite),

and even less believably claiming that all (15 I don't remember the number he said, but it was something like that) Taliban fighters in the hospital were killed by the airstrike

(and how would they know being that the area is under Taliban control, and dead bodies inside a burning building would be invisible to even the best drones)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34435238

thats actually fairly believable, remember HAMAS utilizing UN schools and hospitals to stage weapons and fighters? The Taliban used Schools and hospitals in our AO to facilitate IED training and such.

Yes, but then why would the medical organisation claim there was not a taliban in sight?

Because they would be admitting to harboring terrorists. They'd have good reason to lie about that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Things are getting even murkier with an Afghan government spokesman claiming that the Taliban were using the hospital as a fire base (despite MSF saying the opposite),

and even less believably claiming that all (15 I don't remember the number he said, but it was something like that) Taliban fighters in the hospital were killed by the airstrike

(and how would they know being that the area is under Taliban control, and dead bodies inside a burning building would be invisible to even the best drones)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34435238

thats actually fairly believable, remember HAMAS utilizing UN schools and hospitals to stage weapons and fighters? The Taliban used Schools and hospitals in our AO to facilitate IED training and such.

Yes, but then why would the medical organisation claim there was not a taliban in sight?

That is a weird one. There is no reason MSF (also known as Doctors Without Boarders) would lie about that.

The organization wouldn't, but the individuals from that organization that were there would definitely have reason to lie if that was the case.

That would have to be some pretty insidious corruption, as they tend to use mostly western volunteers (European, American, ect) to my knowledge. It's far more likely that this was an accident. An easily preventable accident, but an accident nevertheless.

Yep. Accidental killing of innocents (a term that is more honest than "collateral damage") is probably what happened here. I've no doubt that the order to bomb an MSF hospital would not be given, and even if it were, the soldiers would be in their rights to refuse to carry out such an order and to report their superiors.

I don't expect that the US will apologise, but I'm also not impressed by the argument that because Egypt or Russia would do this and not be bothered that that makes it okay.

But in reality, I guess caring about these MSF docs more than the countless other innocents who have been killed in this conflict (and other conflicts) is hypocritical too.

Not necessarily. Some shady guys come in asking for medical attention, you treat them because you kinda have to, and before you know it they've brought in some guns and have taken over some rooms.

Which is not a reason to bomb them. That's called a hostage situation. Besides, if that had happened, why would they lie about it? And why would the US deny it?

That is also possible, but in situations like that wouldn't it be the procedure to wait til the militants had left the hospital before attacking them?

The fact that that is possible illustrates how difficult it is for the US to fight conventionally against these guys- they've got no problems with violating international law and codes of decency. It makes a degree of sense of course- the power difference between the two forces is such that if they didn't fight dirty they'd be completely obliterated. But it must be wearing as all hell to try and fight that "by the book".

If someone decided "Eff it, we'll just bomb it and kill them" then I think that person committed a war crime, even if the Taliban were committing a similar crime by using the hospital as a base. Not that it matters really - the US would never allow anyone to be prosecuted for that.