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Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Hello internet, was hoping yuou could help me out here.

Looking at the ruling on vehicle weapons and LOS, it says point them at the target and then trace Line Of Sight from them.

Superheavy Walkers state they follow Superheavy Vehicles, which in turn state follow vehicles but you may fire at different targets if you wish.

So, the question I have is would a Titan-size SHW (namely an IK) be able to uitilize the shoulder joint on the weapon in the same way a Baneblade uses a sponson since the guns themselves can be panned out to a similar point, or would they be fixed forward in the same way as a Dreadnought? Note, this would only apply to the arm-mounted weapons, as the top launcher and armpit cannon are clearly hull-mounted weapons and resticted to 45 degrees.

Logically it seems to be that yes they can, but from a pure RAW perspective it seems to be one of those grey areas where the actual outcome is that the SHW cannot target anything not in front of itself, even with the arms posable enough to scratch the knight's own bottom with.

Hoping to find a concensus.

Cheers

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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From 'Super-Heavy Walkers':

Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below.

Do the Super-heavy Walker rules have an additional rule or exception that changes how they draw line of sight with their ranged weapons? If not, then as per the quote above they follow the rules for Walkers.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





The very next paragraph states "Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for
Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transports."

Since the SHV follow normal vehicle 'point & click' targetting, it serves to reason SHW can as well

If shooting wasnt included in that list, the answer would be clear, but it seems to contradict itself within 1" on page space

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Under the couch

 IHateNids wrote:
The very next paragraph states "Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for
Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transports."

Since the SHV follow normal vehicle 'point & click' targetting, it serves to reason SHW can as well

If shooting wasnt included in that list, the answer would be clear, but it seems to contradict itself within 1" on page space

In which case, the route that doesn't break any rules is to follow the walker rules for establishing LOS.

 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





That is true, but I was just thinking that since the SHV shooting is outlined as an 'exception below' that those rules should take preference.

It's annoying though, because it appears to be trying to follow two different routes to the same thing, which are at odds with each other

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They're not though, any more than normal walkers are.

They follow the SHV shooting rules (which govern number of targets and the like) and the walker shooting rules (which limit their fire arcs).

 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





While that makes sense, I'm still of the opinion that usinbg the SHV shooting rules as the exception to normal walker rules would also allow the arms to become sponsons.

I can understand the viewpoint that the walker overrides SHV, it just doesnt make sense given that the SHV is under exception rather than addition.

Possibly just me taking things too literally, I just cant see a logically sound explanation ruleswise how a knight suddenly forgets it has elbows.

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Under the couch

 IHateNids wrote:

Possibly just me taking things too literally, I just cant see a logically sound explanation ruleswise how a knight suddenly forgets it has elbows.

Dreadnought arms rotate 360 degrees vertically around the shoulder pivot... and yet the rules limit them to a 45 degree vertical arc.

Real-world logic plays little part in the current vehicle rules.

 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Yeah, logic doesnt have much place in 40k it has to be said.

Only thing is that SHV shooting doesnt have the fixed arc penality, so it serves to reason they follow that due to the exceptions in SHW, rather than sticking to the Walker statement.

My thinking just has if it follows one for Targetting, then it should follow suit for Firing Arcs as well

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Florence, KY

 IHateNids wrote:
While that makes sense, I'm still of the opinion that usinbg the SHV shooting rules as the exception to normal walker rules would also allow the arms to become sponsons.

What in the one paragraph under the heading 'Shooting' in the Super-heavy Vehicles rules would lead to that conclusion? The entirety of the shooting rules you are told to reference only cover how Movement affects how may weapons you may fire, how many targets you may fire at and how Ordnance affects how many other weapons may be fired. There is no mention made of firing arcs. Those are covered for Super-heavy Vehicles in the normal Vehicle rules when they state "... Super-heavy vehicles are vehicles..." which dictates their fire arcs. They however don't apply to Super-heavy Walkers as you're not directed to use those rules. Super-heavy Walkers have their own rule that says "... Super-heavy walkers are walkers..." which dictates their fire arcs.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Right, that was the bit I was missing.

Still could be read as 'fires as a SHV in all respects' but I do understand what Insainiak was trying to say and somewhat failing (apologies)

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Florence, KY

"Using the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting..." means just that. The rule that dictates fire arcs isn't a Super-heavy Vehicle Shooting rule, its a Vehicle rule. The Super-heavy Vehicle Shooting rules are not a complete set of Shooting rules. They must be used with another set of Shooting rules (the Vehicle rules for Super-heavy Vehicles and the Walker rules for Super-heavy Walkers).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/04 22:11:09


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 insaniak wrote:
 IHateNids wrote:

Possibly just me taking things too literally, I just cant see a logically sound explanation ruleswise how a knight suddenly forgets it has elbows.

Dreadnought arms rotate 360 degrees vertically around the shoulder pivot... and yet the rules limit them to a 45 degree vertical arc.

Real-world logic plays little part in the current vehicle rules.


Had a laugh at that and remembered that good old Battletech has a special rule for exactly that situation which only about 2 Mechs could actually use (you had to have arms just like the Twin-Linked Autocannons or LasCannons on the 40k Dreadnoughts to use the rule and there was just the Rifleman and the Jagermech to have that).

Well, on the other hand the same rule set features laser weapons with an effective range of 90m. zero damage beyond that.
   
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There were far more than just rifleman and jagermech; cicada, catapult, locust were all also capable from just most of the starter sets(or official 2050 production line mech), and are still just a sampling. Most clan mechs could do it as the clans eschew melee.

Any custom mech lacking lower arm and hand actuators by design could do it as well(both common for heavy and assault mechs; which need the crir slots for more weapons along with their ferrofibrous armor and endosteel structures since money is no object)

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Under the couch

The 40k fire arc rules are even sillier when you consider that we have vehicles with dedicated antiair weaponry that can't actually fire upwards...

 
   
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Aachen

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There were far more than just rifleman and jagermech; cicada, catapult, locust were all also capable from just most of the starter sets(or official 2050 production line mech), and are still just a sampling. Most clan mechs could do it as the clans eschew melee.

Any custom mech lacking lower arm and hand actuators by design could do it as well(both common for heavy and assault mechs; which need the crir slots for more weapons along with their ferrofibrous armor and endosteel structures since money is no object)


I was thinking 3025 starter and the novels. as in "the beginning". And yes, I know how the rule works. It just wasn't that many mechs that could use it, although as you pointed out it was more than 2.
   
Made in us
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3025 is what I meant, the starter boxes. Cicada, locust and catapult were all in them;one of the art pages even shows a locust running away from a larger mech with one of its arms flipped, firing the medium laser behind it.

But we are getting way off topic here.

The superheavy, and superheavy walker rules don't actually say anything about fire arcs and use of the walker shooting rules; so we default to normal vehicle fire arcs which are: whatever it can swivel to horizontally, if the model is built in a manner that it cannot swivel(be that glued in place, or a peg and slot design) then we go with what it looks like it could traverse. If the weapon is designed where there is no possible way it could move we get a 45, and we are always limited to 45 verticle traverse(which is a poorly thrown in afterthought of a rule, vertical should really follow the same rules). If you are following RAW the technically the arc of fire isn't a cone, it is a pyramid; anything along a border-square of 22.5 right and 22.5 up is a valid target with a walker's arm since diagonals are not discussed(it is either that or simply a cross)

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Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





So the twisting 'elbow' on an IK battlecannon would still allow it to fire up to ~70 degrees right/left before the leg gets in the way, and this would be legal?

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Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The superheavy, and superheavy walker rules don't actually say anything about fire arcs and use of the walker shooting rules;


This is completely incorrect:

"Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

"SUPER HEAVY
Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting..."


So we know we follow both the shooting rules for Walkers and Super-heavy vehicles.

"When firing a Walker's weapons assume that weapons mounted on a Walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45°."

 IHateNids wrote:
So the twisting 'elbow' on an IK battlecannon would still allow it to fire up to ~70 degrees right/left before the leg gets in the way, and this would be legal?


As above, unfortunately not. We're told to follow the rules for Walkers, which includes their shooting rules alongside the Super-heavy vehicle shooting rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/06 19:52:39


 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





And since the SHV shooting ios sub-derived from Vehicle, we cant use that as an override

Which is a colossal pain and makes very little sense, but w/e I suppose this is GW were talking about

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 Mr. Shine wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The superheavy, and superheavy walker rules don't actually say anything about fire arcs and use of the walker shooting rules;


This is completely incorrect:

"Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

"SUPER HEAVY
Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting..."


So we know we follow both the shooting rules for Walkers and Super-heavy vehicles.

"When firing a Walker's weapons assume that weapons mounted on a Walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45°."

 IHateNids wrote:
So the twisting 'elbow' on an IK battlecannon would still allow it to fire up to ~70 degrees right/left before the leg gets in the way, and this would be legal?


As above, unfortunately not. We're told to follow the rules for Walkers, which includes their shooting rules alongside the Super-heavy vehicle shooting rules.


Yes they use walker rules with exceptions.

Using the superheavy rules for shooting is an exception(as those are not the rules for walkers and shooting), if it said they use both the walker and shv rules for shooting, that would be additional.

The shv rules for shooting say nothing about firing arcs(and so follow the default rules)

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Made in nz
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Ankh Morpork

By not following the Walker shooting rules you are not following the Walker rules as you are told to.

Both sets of rules are compatible and not mutually exclusive, and results in you actually following the rules, rather than breaking some of them.
   
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No, you are following the exception you are told to.

By not moving only up to 6" every movement phase you are not following the walker rules either now are you?

If you look at the very next heading you see the rule "super heavy"; it tells you to use the super heavy vehicle rules for shooting. Nothing else in the super heavy walker rules reference shooting except for the further modification to walker rules that the shw cannot fire overwatch.

The shooting rules are mutually exclusive. Basic superheavy follow basic fire arcs as those are not specified. Walker rules specify arcs. Shw are only told to use shv shooting so use badic arcs rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 13:02:09


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, you are following the exception you are told to.

By not moving only up to 6" every movement phase you are not following the walker rules either now are you?


Really now? It should have been obvious I was referring to the rules shared between types in terms of shooting. The shooting rules between Walker, Super-heavy vehicles and Super-heavy Walkers are not mutually exclusive, i.e. none of them contradict each other.

Neither Super-heavy vehicle or Super-heavy Walker shooting rules mention fire arcs, so where do they override the Walker rules we're told we must refer to?

If you look at the very next heading you see the rule "super heavy"; it tells you to use the super heavy vehicle rules for shooting. Nothing else in the super heavy walker rules reference shooting except for the further modification to walker rules that the shw cannot fire overwatch.


You're ignoring a crucial line under the Super-heavy Walkers heading:

"Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

They are walkers, and thus we must follow the rules for Walkers, subject to the additional rules and exceptions given. What additional rules and exceptions are given, so far as shooting is concerned? That they may not fire Overwatch, and that (in following the Super-heavy rules for shooting) when they make a shooting attack they always count as if they had remained stationary in the Movement phase, may fire each of their weapons at different targets if desired, and that firing Ordnance has no effect on their ability to fire other weapons.

The shooting rules are mutually exclusive. Basic superheavy follow basic fire arcs as those are not specified. Walker rules specify arcs. Shw are only told to use shv shooting so use badic arcs rules.


There are no basic Super-heavy fire arcs. There are Walker fire arcs, and we're told they are Walkers. If you wish to ignore rules in your own games that's fine, but don't start telling people that cherry picking what you like and ignoring what you don't is what the rules say, because it is not.
   
Made in us
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What are the firing arcs for a superheavy vehicle?


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What are the firing arcs for a superheavy vehicle?


What are the firing arcs for a Walker?

Which do you think should take priority? The most basic default vehicle rules or the Walker rules which you are told to refer to and are more specific or advanced?
   
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Under the couch

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What are the firing arcs for a superheavy vehicle?


They're the same as for any other vehicle, because there is no fire arc specified for super heavies by themselves.

So a super heavy walker will have the same fire arcs as any other walker.

 
   
Made in us
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Super heavy walker tells you to use the shooting rules for super heavy vehicles.

It does not tell you to use the shooting rules for walkers.

It is a walker and a shv, with additional rules and exceptions; shv and walkers have different, exclusive, firing arcs. So when the super heavy rule tells you to use the shooting rules for shv, it is telling you that you are not using the shooting rules for walkers.


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Super heavy walker tells you to use the shooting rules for super heavy vehicles.

It does not tell you to use the shooting rules for walkers.

It is a walker and a shv, with additional rules and exceptions; shv and walkers have different, exclusive, firing arcs. So when the super heavy rule tells you to use the shooting rules for shv, it is telling you that you are not using the shooting rules for walkers.


Using the shooting rules for Super-heavy vehicles does not conflict with/is not exclusive to also using the rules for Walkers. We are told Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers with additional rules and exceptions, so therefore we must use the Walker rules unless specifically told not to. The Super-heavy shooting rules actually say nothing whatsoever about firing arcs while the Walker shooting rules do. You have no permission to ignore what the Walker rules say on firing arcs because nothing in the Super-heavy shooting rules mentions firing arcs or otherwise overrides the Walker rules.

EDIT:

You're being incredibly inconsistent. In another thread you're making claims of a rule overriding only the specific portions of a more basic rule that it conflicts with, and yet here you're claiming the Super-heavy shooting rules must override the entirety of the Walker rules (and thus engage the most basic vehicle shooting rules) despite conflicting with nothing in the Walker shooting rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 20:56:01


 
   
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Florence, KY

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Super heavy walker tells you to use the shooting rules for super heavy vehicles.

And the entirety of the shooting rules you are told to reference only cover how Movement affects how may weapons you may fire, how many targets you may fire at and how Ordnance affects how many other weapons may be fired.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It does not tell you to use the shooting rules for walkers.

Look at the paragraph directly above 'Super-heavy' in the Super-heavy Walkers section of the rulebook where it says "Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It is a walker and a shv, with additional rules and exceptions; shv and walkers have different, exclusive, firing arcs. So when the super heavy rule tells you to use the shooting rules for shv, it is telling you that you are not using the shooting rules for walkers.

Super-heavy Vehicles don't have their own complete set of rules for shooting. They modify the rules that the particular unit uses. For Super-heavy Vehicles it is the Vehicle shooting rules as the rules say "Super-heavy vehicles are vehicles that have the additional rules and exceptions given below" while for Super-heavy Walkers it is the Walker shooting rules as the rules say "Super-heavy Walkers are Walkers that have the additional rules and exceptions given below".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 21:02:38


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
 
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