Improving Thousand Sons?

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**Arkaine**

Thousand Sons have a bad name for their high cost, limited anti-MEQ no-specials use, expensive champion with 67% of the time a worthless psychic power, and underwhelming invulnerable save in a heavy cover meta. I'm thinking about what can aid them without making them cost even more than they already do.

Adding special or heavy weapons I feel would make them too good so the only areas of improvement I can see is the troops themselves or their champion. With all of the rules the troops already have, I think they're set on those. But as far as weapons go... they could use a good close combat one because tarpits are their doom and really shouldn't be as space marines. One idea I had was giving ALL of them Force knives. Since Force activates the psyker and the entire squad, a squad of Force-equipped Thousand Sons would have more than simply a MEQ-slaughter role in that they can also give multi-wound models a run. I know they have the Sorc but he's not dependable for the job and can't power fist his way to victory.

On the subject of the Sorcerer, he's another possible area for improvement. Currently he's only a single psychic Tzeentch sorcerer so he knows two powers, one of which is random and one of which is the mostly useless primaris of Tzeentch. If the Tzeentch powers were better than they were, this might not be so much of a detriment. Hopefully the next codex will give them the same treatment Dark Angels and other factions have received with power selection. But for now I think the Sorc could stand to have an improvement of some sort to justify his presence as he's really not worth sitting around as a warp charge battery. Perhaps a free spell familiar so he can cast his crappy powers without expending many charges? Rerolling the psychic test is just such a Mark of Tzeentch thing to do in the first place.

My thoughts but I'd love to hear your own ideas of how to make these much adored fluffsters into real stars. Right now they just warm up the field before your real army shows up.

**WangoFett**

I think the aspiring sorcerer is the key to this unit.

I agree the tzeentch discipline is gak. It needs more utility, like a gate-type mobility spell and a divinationy spell or two.

The compulsory roll on the tzeentch table could be removed too (while keeping chaos psychic focus). If aspiring sorcerers could roll on e.g. telepathy their utility would be greatly increased.

**Powerfisting**

Arkaine wrote:
Thousand Sons have a bad name for their high cost, limited anti-MEQ no-specials use, expensive champion with 67% of the time a worthless psychic power, and underwhelming invulnerable save in a heavy cover meta. I'm thinking about what can aid them without making them cost even more than they already do.

Adding special or heavy weapons I feel would make them too good so the only areas of improvement I can see is the troops themselves or their champion. With all of the rules the troops already have, I think they're set on those. But as far as weapons go... they could use a good close combat one because tarpits are their doom and really shouldn't be as space marines. One idea I had was giving ALL of them Force knives. Since Force activates the psyker and the entire squad, a squad of Force-equipped Thousand Sons would have more than simply a MEQ-slaughter role in that they can also give multi-wound models a run. I know they have the Sorc but he's not dependable for the job and can't power fist his way to victory.

On the subject of the Sorcerer, he's another possible area for improvement. Currently he's only a single psychic Tzeentch sorcerer so he knows two powers, one of which is random and one of which is the mostly useless primaris of Tzeentch. If the Tzeentch powers were better than they were, this might not be so much of a detriment. Hopefully the next codex will give them the same treatment Dark Angels and other factions have received with power selection. But for now I think the Sorc could stand to have an improvement of some sort to justify his presence as he's really not worth sitting around as a warp charge battery. Perhaps a free spell familiar so he can cast his crappy powers without expending many charges? Rerolling the psychic test is just such a Mark of Tzeentch thing to do in the first place.

My thoughts but I'd love to hear your own ideas of how to make these much adored fluffsters into real stars. Right now they just warm up the field before your real army shows up.

Special and heavy weapons is a no- brainer to me. I would also bring the points cost down to 20ppm.

The aspiring sorcerer is something that could be reworked pretty well. I would start by making him an optional upgrade.

So 5 Thousand Sons costs 100 points now. One could be upgraded to an Aspiring Sorcerer for 25 points and they get the same access to the special and heavy weapons lists that everyone else gets.

Other ideas that get tossed around when this thread comes up is rerolling saves, making the invul stronger, etc. I've also heard of making them 2W but that's iffy for me.

**J3f**

I'd give them FNP and allow them to take a Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter.

To Balance it out I'd make them not able to perform any actions when there isn't an Aspiring Sorceror in the unit and they aren't locked in combat or within 12" of a Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch.

**Slayer-Fan123**

They don't need access to Special Weapons. Plague Marines and Noise Marines can already do that.
I say a more Sternguard role with different ammo types would be better.

**Mr ghoti**

Bring the rubrics and sorcerer down 5 points each. Remove the requirement for a roll of Tzeentch table. Make psykers with marks simply automatically know the primaries for their god, then can receive psychic focus on the table they roll.

Give them grenades like any other marine. Options to take heavy bolters and no torrent bale flamers. Icon of flame gives all shooting and close combat attacks soulblaze.

Sorcerers may roll on tzeentch, telepathy, divination, or telekinesis.

The sorcerer commands: while there is a Psyker with the mark of Tzeentch present in the unit, the unit had relentless. Otherwise they have slow and purposeful.

**jade_angel**

First thing I'd do is make them less expensive, or possibly make them Relentless instead of Slow and Purposeful. Possibly both.

Next up, make the Tzeentch discipline not suck. Some of the suggestions to make it Divination-esque (reflecting Tzeentch's plans-within-plans) sound decent to me. Alternatively, the Aspiring Sorcerer gets the Tzeentch Primaris power in addition to one roll on some other chart (Pyromancy, Divination, Telekinesis, Malefic Daemonology? Not Biomancy, Telepathy or Sanctic Daemonology, though.)

Relentless, slightly cheaper Thousand Sons with psychic powers that don't suck would actually be fairly scary. I kinda like the idea of them getting special ammo, too, maybe with some tradeoffs vis-a-vis Sternguard (like, maybe they have to pay for theirs).

Possible special ammo, names are somewhat temporary:

Proto-Kraken Bolts: 30" S4 AP5, Rapid Fire
Toxic Bolts: 24" S1 AP5 Rapid Fire, Poisoned (4+)
Frag Bolts: 18" S3 AP6 Heavy 1, Blast
Warptwist Bolts: 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire, Rending

In fact, on further consideration, they should definitely have to pay for those, since they get a safe-to-shoot AP3 round as their default. But they'd be interesting options, all the same.

**Tactical_Spam**

Mr ghoti wrote:
Bring the rubrics and sorcerer down 5 points each. Remove the requirement for a roll of Tzeentch table. Make psykers with marks simply automatically know the primaries for their god, then can receive psychic focus on the table they roll.

Give them grenades like any other marine. Options to take heavy bolters and no torrent bale flamers. Icon of flame gives all shooting and close combat attacks soulblaze.

Sorcerers may roll on tzeentch, telepathy, divination, or telekinesis.

The sorcerer commands: while there is a Psyker with the mark of Tzeentch present in the unit, the unit had relentless. Otherwise they have slow and purposeful.

I think you miss the point of Thousand suns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
First thing I'd do is make them less expensive, or possibly make them Relentless instead of Slow and Purposeful. Possibly both.

Next up, make the Tzeentch discipline not suck. Some of the suggestions to make it Divination-esque (reflecting Tzeentch's plans-within-plans) sound decent to me. Alternatively, the Aspiring Sorcerer gets the Tzeentch Primaris power in addition to one roll on some other chart (Pyromancy, Divination, Telekinesis, Malefic Daemonology? Not Biomancy, Telepathy or Sanctic Daemonology, though.)

Relentless, slightly cheaper Thousand Sons with psychic powers that don't suck would actually be fairly scary. I kinda like the idea of them getting special ammo, too, maybe with some tradeoffs vis-a-vis Sternguard (like, maybe they have to pay for theirs).

Possible special ammo, names are somewhat temporary:

Proto-Kraken Bolts: 30" S4 AP5, Rapid Fire
Toxic Bolts: 24" S1 AP5 Rapid Fire, Poisoned (4+)
Frag Bolts: 18" S3 AP6 Heavy 1, Blast
Warptwist Bolts: 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire, Rending

In fact, on further consideration, they should definitely have to pay for those, since they get a safe-to-shoot AP3 round as their default. But they'd be interesting options, all the same.

If anyone gets specialist ammo, its chosen first

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'd be for giving them Soul Blaze by default. It isn't the greatest rule in the world, but it gives them a little more utility against hordes.

**jade_angel**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
<snip>

jade_angel wrote:
<snippaloppiter>

If anyone gets specialist ammo, its chosen first

Fair point, I'd forgotten about them.

**Tactical_Spam**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd be for giving them Soul Blaze by default. It isn't the greatest rule in the world, but it gives them a little more utility against hordes.

But thousand suns arent built to kill hordes, Noise marines and berserkers are. Thousands Suns are in the same boat with Plague Marines. They are bullet sponges

**Yarium**

I always imagined the Thousand Sons as being a psychic squad, but they've never performed that way. At the same time, only the Sorcerer is a psyker. I think that the trick to them actually starts with toning them down!

Hear me out!

Basic Thousand Sons:
(Marine Stat-line & Bolters + Fearless)

Special rules:
Rubric of Ahriman: Thousand Sons' armour is inscribed with runes and infused with warp energy. Any friendly psychic power cast by a unit in your army that targets this unit or includes this unit in its area of effect may roll an additional die when attempting to harness warp charge.

Magical Automatons: A psyker that's a part of the Thousand Son's unit knows the following psychic powers in addition to any other powers they know;

Arcane Boltfire - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit's Bolt weapons are AP3 until the psyker's next psychic phase.

March of Metal - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit gain Slow & Purposeful, and cannot be wounded by shooting attacks with a strength of 4 or less until the psyker's next psychic phase.

Rubric's Seal - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit gain 1 wound each and cannot move for any reason until the psyker's next psychic phase. At this point, each model that gained a wound loses a wound unless doing so would remove the model as a casualty (it leaves them at 1 wound). No saves of any kind (including invulnerable or feel no pain saves), may be made against this loss of wounds.

This allows the Thousand Sons to show off every incarnation they've had for the past 4 editions! From a unit immune to small-arms fire, to a unit with lots of wounds, to a unit with powerful shooting attacks. Since they're each 1 warp charge, and the unit gains a warp charge when trying to manifest something targeting them, you can always just go for 50/50 chance on each power each turn. Some turns they'll be fantastic (powerful and hard-to-wound immobile anti-MEQs), and other turns be little better than basic marines. Start using additional warp charge, and you can make them more reliable. Include them in a psychic-based list to make them a useful role-player in "cheating" in additional warp charge (that can't be used for summoning!).

**Tactical_Spam**

Yarium wrote:
I always imagined the Thousand Sons as being a psychic squad, but they've never performed that way. At the same time, only the Sorcerer is a psyker. I think that the trick to them actually starts with toning them down!

Hear me out!

Basic Thousand Sons:
(Marine Stat-line & Bolters + Fearless)

Special rules:
Rubric of Ahriman: Thousand Sons' armour is inscribed with runes and infused with warp energy. Any friendly psychic power cast by a unit in your army that targets this unit or includes this unit in its area of effect may roll an additional die when attempting to harness warp charge.

Magical Automatons: A psyker that's a part of the Thousand Son's unit knows the following psychic powers in addition to any other powers they know;

Arcane Boltfire - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit's Bolt weapons are AP3 until the psyker's next psychic phase.

March of Metal - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit gain Slow & Purposeful, and cannot be wounded by shooting attacks with a strength of 4 or less until the psyker's next psychic phase.

Rubric's Seal - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - The psyker and his unit gain 1 wound each and cannot move for any reason until the psyker's next psychic phase. At this point, each model that gained a wound loses a wound unless doing so would remove the model as a casualty (it leaves them at 1 wound). No saves of any kind (including invulnerable or feel no pain saves), may be made against this loss of wounds.

This allows the Thousand Sons to show off every incarnation they've had for the past 4 editions! From a unit immune to small-arms fire, to a unit with lots of wounds, to a unit with powerful shooting attacks. Since they're each 1 warp charge, and the unit gains a warp charge when trying to manifest something targeting them, you can always just go for 50/50 chance on each power each turn. Some turns they'll be fantastic (powerful and hard-to-wound immobile anti-MEQs), and other turns be little better than basic marines. Start using additional warp charge, and you can make them more reliable. Include them in a psychic-based list to make them a useful role-player in "cheating" in additional warp charge (that can't be used for summoning!).

I feel that the march of Steel synergized too well with Rubrics seal. Maybe these powers should auto succeed but only one can go off?
I would suggest making them immobile while also making them immune to S4 and below while the other power would add another wound and make them SaP

**WangoFett**

Here's another idea: If the aspiring sorcerer were to get his own unique powers, how about this one:

Dust to Steel - Blessing - Warp Charge 1 - 1d3 Thousand Sons from the Psyker's unit that had previously been removed from play as casualties immediately return to play joined to the unit. Returned models must be placed within 2" of the Psyker and more than 1" away from enemy models. Models that can not be placed in this way do not return to play.

This could provide that relentless survivability feel without being another feel no pain. It would also encourage larger units.

**Arkaine**

Wow, lots of ideas! Some are a bit strong though. Cost reduction is great to make them worth the cost but it doesn't solve their usage problem. They're kind of one-dimensional.

So far I think my favorite suggestion is adding a Baleflamer as an upgrade option. More weapon variety never hurts and wouldn't inherently require a cost increase. Special weapons or ammo other than this AP3 stuff I think are best left to other marines.

But what I really like is the thought of making them a psyker powered unit. Makes me think about the all-sorcerer squads of 3rd edition! It would even put value into keeping the sorcerer alive because currently I let him tank hits for the important marines. Maybe only that sorcerer can buff his squad with special powers unique to Tzeentch's devoted.

Great responses!

**Tactical_Spam**

What if:
You must take a Tzneetch Sorcerer
Sorcerer unlocks the ability to make Thousand Suns (Marine statline, bolter, bolt pistol, MoT, fearless, SaP) instead of CSM for 5 ppm for a total of 18 points a model. This would work like an upgrade.
Then the sorcerer can use a seperate psychic power table to essentially start buffing his rubrics

**MagicJuggler**

Thousand Sons don't have any tactical purpose, like a lot of the Chaos units. They are a redundant unit through and through. Do you want to kill Marines? Why didn't you run a Heldrake? Or a Blastmaster. Or just pure weight of attacks? Psyker powers? Hah.

Sometimes the simple changes are the funniest. Options include:
-Add +1 on rolls to manifest blessings on a Thousand Son unit (bless them on 3+ instead of 4+).
-Buffs that directly affect the Psyker itself also affect Thousand Sons in the same unit (ergo, attach an Iron Arm sorcerer to the unit...).
-Up to 3 Warp Charge can be spent to up the Strength of Inferno Bolts...
-Do like Blackfang did in potica40k and make Soul Blaze an exploding wound mechanic (6s to-wound generate extra to-wound dice)...

**Arkaine**

Using Warp Charges to buff them is a nice idea too. I'm thinking something like how Grey Knight units work.

- Spend a charge (or cast this power) to give this unit Feel No Pain.
- Do the same to give this unit +1 to invulnerable saves.
- Do it again to give this unit AP2 during the shooting phase.
- Or just buff their Toughness by +3 for the turn.

With an assortment of powered abilities to choose from, psyker-heavy armies can choose between spending their Warp Charges on things like Invisibility and Psychic Shriek or they can use them to enhance their troops. Of course, the sorcerer has to still be alive for all of this!

**Filch**

How to make Tsons good.

Give each non sorcerer a free heavy bolter with ap3 ammo. Problem solved.

**locarno24**

Agreed - broadly.

The problems are:

a) Cost
b) The Sorceror's limited use
c) A lack of well-defined function

I would like thousand sons to be an effective 'psyker army' - without going into a million random tables per turn (like daemons)

The basic thousand son is okay, but rubricae shouldn't ever have anything but bolters. Different ammo types feel wrong too. I've no problem with including soul blaze in the inferno bolt's rules to help with hordes.

Ignores cover is out, though - if you do that, you lean too much on the noise marines.

I'd maybe drop the cost a few points - not too much because they've still all got an iron halo each. Slow and Purposeful is fine - more to prevent them running (which they shouldn't) than for any interaction with overwatch.

Reducing them to 21? 20? points makes them a little more useful, but the big boost should be the aspiring sorceror. I'd open up the disciplines and possibly let him buy additional mastery levels (at the normal going rate). For that matter, I'd be half tempted to just make him a standard chaos sorceror. Yes, he's badass for a squad leader but he's not that amazing.

That, in turn, opens up plenty of tactical functions - especially if you give them a nice wide sweep of disciplines to choose from.

**Filch**

Give Tson free discs of tzeentch and heavy bolters with ap and they will be half as good as eldar scatter bikers.

**jade_angel**

Ah, yes, scatbikes are OP so we should do nothing to anything else ever because it would be pointless, or we should make the whole world OP to compensate.

Rather than, y'know, nerf scatbikes. Which isn't on the table only because this thread is about Thousand Suns, not scatbikes.

**Experiment 626**

What I'd like to see for these guys:

Basic 1kSon drop to 20pts/model. Comes w/Bolter, Frags + Kraks.

Sorcerer drops in cost to +20pts upgrade & gains +1W as well. Can be upgraded to Lv2 for the regular going rate.
Can choose from the lores of Tzeentch, Pryomancy, Telepathy, Malefic and/or Santic Daemonology.

Special rules & wargear:
- The Sorcerer Commands; when led by a Sorcerer or Aspiring Sorcerer w/MoT, the unit gains the Relentless rule, but may not make any Run moves. If there is no Sorcerer or Aspiring Sorcerer present, then the unit has the 'Slow & Purposeful' rule.

- Rubric of Ahriman; Models with the is rule have the Adamantium Will USR, and a 5+ Invulnerable save.

- Inferno Bolts; S4/ap4/Force/Soul Blaze

- Kai Gun; +15pts, 1 per 5 full squad members. S6/ap3/Heavy 2/Warp Touch*
*Warp Touch: Any model wounded by a weapon with this rule but not removed as a casualty much immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is passed, nothing happens. If the test is failed, the model takes a further automatic D3 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed.
If a model is removed from play due to these additional wounds, roll a D6. On a 2+, the controlling player may immediately place a Chaos Spawn model within 3" of the destroyed target. Any models created in this way must be placed at least 1" from any enemy models. If the controlling does not have a Chaos Spawn model, then no Spawn is created.

Change up the Lore of Tzeentch to be a full 6 spells + Primaris.
Honestly, I'd just import and 40k'ify the old Fantasy lore of Tzeentch. Tzeentch magic should ideally be the most random of the God specific lores, but also the most inherently destructive.

Slaanesh magic on the hand should be all about nuking Ld and Initiative, with lower strength damage spells that break armour saves and burn through cover, while Nurgle is all about Blessings/Maledictions and a handful of damage spells that wound against Toughness.

**Tactical_Spam**

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed - broadly.

The problems are:

a) Cost
b) The Sorceror's limited use
c) A lack of well-defined function

I would like thousand sons to be an effective 'psyker army' - without going into a million random tables per turn (like daemons)

The basic thousand son is okay, but rubricae shouldn't ever have anything but bolters. Different ammo types feel wrong too. I've no problem with including soul blaze in the inferno bolt's rules to help with hordes.

Ignores cover is out, though - if you do that, you lean too much on the noise marines.

I'd maybe drop the cost a few points - not too much because they've still all got an iron halo each. Slow and Purposeful is fine - more to prevent them running (which they shouldn't) than for any interaction with overwatch.

Reducing them to 21? 20? points makes them a little more useful, but the big boost should be the aspiring sorceror. I'd open up the disciplines and possibly let him buy additional mastery levels (at the normal going rate). For that matter, I'd be half tempted to just make him a standard chaos sorceror. Yes, he's badass for a squad leader but he's not that amazing.

That, in turn, opens up plenty of tactical functions - especially if you give them a nice wide sweep of disciplines to choose from.

This is the best idea yet

**paramedicpirate**

Here is my 2 cents:

Remove the sorcerer. Allow every 5 in a squad to generate a psychic die, not psychic powers.

Make a unit similar to the old Wolfguard unit, where you can take 1 lvl 1 MOT sorcerer for every squad of 1000sons you have. This unit does not take up a FOC slot, however every member must dedicate their abilities to a discipline: ie: divination, pyromancy etc... and there may NOT have any repetitions. This sorcerer is otherwise treated as an independent character and one must join a squad of 1000sons else they suffer from mindlock like a servitor.

Now for the sons themselves, give them the ability to fire in combat at initiative, giving them force weapons doesn't work mainly because the rubric sealed the non psykers in their armour so there is no power there to focus.

**KhorneontheCobb**

Make Tzeentch spells non-crap. Make 1K sons 2 wound models while keeping them at their currently overpriced point cost. They would then be usable and would even fit the fluff much better. As they stand now, it's insane to bring even a 5 man squad unless youre trying to lose for a narrative campaign game or something.

**loki old fart**

KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Make Tzeentch spells non-crap. Make 1K sons 2 wound models while keeping them at their currently overpriced point cost. They would then be usable and would even fit the fluff much better. As they stand now, it's insane to bring even a 5 man squad unless youre trying to lose for a narrative campaign game or something.

Allow them to have disciplines I.E. corvidae, pavoni, pyrae, ETC. There is a codex on 1d4 channel.

**KhorneontheCobb**

loki old fart wrote:
KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Make Tzeentch spells non-crap. Make 1K sons 2 wound models while keeping them at their currently overpriced point cost. They would then be usable and would even fit the fluff much better. As they stand now, it's insane to bring even a 5 man squad unless youre trying to lose for a narrative campaign game or something.

Allow them to have disciplines I.E. corvidae, pavoni, pyrae, ETC. There is a codex on 1d4 channel.

That's awesome! I know that some of my friends will let me play it for my large collection of 1K sons- here have some exalted!

**Arkaine**

I wish I could use those rules but it'd never fly in our meta. Vanilla is love here.

**Brometheus**

Ya'll really think 2 wound TS is practical? With all the book-keeping already required for spells and other crap, the last thing you want is to be keeping track of which Rubric Marines are wounded. 2W is more trouble than it's worth in 7th ed imo.

Re-rolling armor saves unless the attack is double strength would be sick. That's the rule that I use here at home among friends and it's fine even on terminators. Nothing has inferno bolts, I always thought that was a little silly but I guess it is canon now.