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 JamesY wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Plaz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

Citation required.

They aren't described anywhere as senior, but the inquisition codex says that they are by far the most formidable.

Individually, but the Grey Knights ability to apply force isn't higher than either the SIsters or the Death Watch due to limited numbers.

The inquisition isn't one united force the factions plot against each other a lot.

 PhillyT wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Plaz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

Citation required.

They aren't described anywhere as senior, but the inquisition codex says that they are by far the most formidable.

Individually, but the Grey Knights ability to apply force isn't higher than either the SIsters or the Death Watch due to limited numbers.

No it specifically states they are by far the most formidable from a military stand point, sorry left that out. The psychic capacity alone puts them well ahead of both. Crunch wise not so much, but fluffwise definitely.

Yeah, the Grey Knights play on a whole different level from other Astartes.

And that is fething saying something.

Right, but the size of their forces limits how many places they can engage. There could, in theory, be tens of thousands of Deathwatch active since they are drawn from the million plus Space Marine chapters. Sisters are thousands upon thousands strong as well.

As a singular force, the Grey Knights are unsurpassed, but they still have only about 1000 knights to do the job.

Yes, but all of grey knights against all of deathwatch or sob, if grey knights are more formidable, then they'd win. Numbers aren't a factor, nor is the number of locations in which they can engage.


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Plus there are only 1000 space marine chapters active.

 PhillyT wrote:
Right, but the size of their forces limits how many places they can engage. There could, in theory, be tens of thousands of Deathwatch active since they are drawn from the million plus Space Marine chapters. Sisters are thousands upon thousands strong as well.

As a singular force, the Grey Knights are unsurpassed, but they still have only about 1000 knights to do the job.

Millions of Space Marine chapters huh? Can I get a source on that number?

Anyway lets assume a chapter tithes 5 marines per chapter, we get a solid 5000, pretty good still. But don't toss numbers like yours around which are hyperbole.

But such a situation in OP's paragraph wouldn't happen, the blowback from the rest of the Inquisition would be so strong that the Inquisitor who conducted such a operation would be annihilated promptly.

Also to the people who say the Black Templars would kill the Grey Knights, they actually love them, no joke.

 JamesY wrote:
Yes, but all of grey knights against all of deathwatch or sob, if grey knights are more formidable, then they'd win. Numbers aren't a factor, nor is the number of locations in which they can engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus there are only 1000 space marine chapters active.

You're funny.

Anyone who thinks numbers aren't a factor has never played against Guard.

 Quickjager wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Right, but the size of their forces limits how many places they can engage. There could, in theory, be tens of thousands of Deathwatch active since they are drawn from the million plus Space Marine chapters. Sisters are thousands upon thousands strong as well.

As a singular force, the Grey Knights are unsurpassed, but they still have only about 1000 knights to do the job.

Millions of Space Marine chapters huh? Can I get a source on that number?

Anyway lets assume a chapter tithes 5 marines per chapter, we get a solid 5000, pretty good still. But don't toss numbers like yours around which are hyperbole.

But such a situation in OP's paragraph wouldn't happen, the blowback from the rest of the Inquisition would be so strong that the Inquisitor who conducted such a operation would be annihilated promptly.

Also to the people who say the Black Templars would kill the Grey Knights, they actually love them, no joke.

Sorry, mistype. I meant a million plus marines spread across the chapters, so you can sheath you're big man sword and settle down son.

As far as 5000 deathwatch, they'd very likely be able to fight the Grey Knights to at least a stand still and would likely be more than able to kill them all given the advanced bolts available, including those that can pierce power armor.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Right, but the size of their forces limits how many places they can engage. There could, in theory, be tens of thousands of Deathwatch active since they are drawn from the million plus Space Marine chapters. Sisters are thousands upon thousands strong as well.

As a singular force, the Grey Knights are unsurpassed, but they still have only about 1000 knights to do the job.

Millions of Space Marine chapters huh? Can I get a source on that number?

Anyway lets assume a chapter tithes 5 marines per chapter, we get a solid 5000, pretty good still. But don't toss numbers like yours around which are hyperbole.

But such a situation in OP's paragraph wouldn't happen, the blowback from the rest of the Inquisition would be so strong that the Inquisitor who conducted such a operation would be annihilated promptly.

Also to the people who say the Black Templars would kill the Grey Knights, they actually love them, no joke.

Sorry, mistype. I meant a million plus marines spread across the chapters, so you can sheath you're big man sword and settle down son.

As far as 5000 deathwatch, they'd very likely be able to fight the Grey Knights to at least a stand still and would likely be more than able to kill them all given the advanced bolts available, including those that can pierce power armor.

I'm not the one takin' swings at others, check yourself. As for the Deathwatch v. GK, why would I care about that? It isn't as though they'd ever fight much less deploy their entire forces against each other. Otherwise if we talkin' full scale Ordo fighting I still give it to the Malleus.

-Red Hunters
-Exorcists
-Minotaurs (Debatable High Lords and all that)

Even up the numbers a bit more. It might make a good story if GW ever gets off their ass.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Yes, but all of grey knights against all of deathwatch or sob, if grey knights are more formidable, then they'd win. Numbers aren't a factor, nor is the number of locations in which they can engage.


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Plus there are only 1000 space marine chapters active.

You're funny.

Anyone who thinks numbers aren't a factor has never played against Guard.

You know what I nearly mentioned guard, but I didn't for a reason. Numbers aren't a deciding factor in whose army are the most effective when we have already been told which army is most effective by the writers, which is what I said previously.

The WoG is that the Grey Knights are the most formidable fighting force.

That means that they can bring sufficient concentration of power during normal deployment to overwhelm the normal deployment of any other force.

But you're throwing in that it's not a normal deployment, it's all of them. In which case a thousand Grey Knights haven't got a prayer against some eighty thousand battle sisters or five thousand Deathwatch.

Ok. So how do you interpret the statement 'Militarily, the ordo malleus are by far the most formidable, as they can call upon the entire grey knight chapter' then?

Hang on, when did we get on to an all-out war between different chambers millitant?

That's (a) not going to happen - the senior members of the =][= would come down like a hammer on that stuff, (b) not practical - whilst the Grey Knights all 'home-port' on Titan, not even the Watch-Captains of the Deathwatch know where all their respective peers are based - the Deathwatch is not a single chapter and can't (not just wouldn't but in all practical cases can't) muster a chapter-strength force.

It's not supposed to.

The Grey Knights do - and have - fought company-strength wars; the sort of foes they face are intended for no-one else to fight. If a Deathwatch force is facing a planetary battlefield, then a 'regular' chapter or the Astra Millitarum/PDF will be doing the heavy lifting - they're a special operations force who'll be quietly winning the war from the shadows or at the tip of a spearhead, not making up the whole battleforce.

Squad-to-squad is quite possible, and as noted before, that depends more on the squad individuals, their situation, and who's prepared for it, than the colours they're wearing.

The Grey Knights are an all-up chapter with a central command, full battlefleet (cruisers and capital ships combined), etc, etc. Having that at their disposal makes the Ordo Malleus more miltarily powerful, given that the other ordos have to work through others for large-scale wars:

Other chapters can be drawn into the service of the Ordos but the Chapter Master is a Peer of The Imperium, and as such whilst theoretically subject to Inquisitorial Authority, a lot of politics comes into play (unlike the Grey Knights or Deathwatch, who are out-and-out sworn into service).

The Sororitas are the Hereticus' Chamber Militant but aren't space marines, and have tactical limitations in supporting equipment (like battleships). Plus, Ecclesiarchal Cardinals are, again, Peers of the Imperium - they're not directly in the Sororitas' command structure but influential to it.

Guard forces are easy to overawe with imperial authority but....yeah. Cannon fodder. Strategically immobile without the Fleet. Potentially unreliable when facing moral threats in a way sororitas and marines aren't.

The Deathwatch are astartes veterans and again trained and equipped above-and-beyond - one on one there's no reason a Kill-team couldn't match a Grey Knight unit (there's enough quotes referring to both seperately as the 'finest warriors in the galaxy' or similar hyperbole), but they're trained to fight in squad-sized detachments in special operations. Marines are always capable of a full-scale war, but whilst there may be more Deathwatch scattered across the galaxy than the sum of the Grey Knights, they're scattered in 'penny packets' detached to individual inquisitors and watch stations with no home base or central command structure.

 JamesY wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Yes, but all of grey knights against all of deathwatch or sob, if grey knights are more formidable, then they'd win. Numbers aren't a factor, nor is the number of locations in which they can engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus there are only 1000 space marine chapters active.

You're funny.

Anyone who thinks numbers aren't a factor has never played against Guard.

You know what I nearly mentioned guard, but I didn't for a reason. Numbers aren't a deciding factor in whose army are the most effective when we have already been told which army is most effective by the writers, which is what I said previously.

I think you are really overstating the statement by the writers. The Grey Knights are the most formidable single group of Imperial soldiers relative to size. I mean, it isn't as though the writer is trying to say that the Grey Knights can stop the entirety of the IG etc.

The notion that numbers don't matter is absurd. Nobody is capable of punching above their weight more than the GK, but the authors had to be referring to that individual ability to execute on missions. When the Grey Knights get deployed, they get the job done.

 PhillyT wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Yes, but all of grey knights against all of deathwatch or sob, if grey knights are more formidable, then they'd win. Numbers aren't a factor, nor is the number of locations in which they can engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus there are only 1000 space marine chapters active.

You're funny.

Anyone who thinks numbers aren't a factor has never played against Guard.

You know what I nearly mentioned guard, but I didn't for a reason. Numbers aren't a deciding factor in whose army are the most effective when we have already been told which army is most effective by the writers, which is what I said previously.

I think you are really overstating the statement by the writers. The Grey Knights are the most formidable single group of Imperial soldiers relative to size. I mean, it isn't as though the writer is trying to say that the Grey Knights can stop the entirety of the IG etc.

The notion that numbers don't matter is absurd. Nobody is capable of punching above their weight more than the GK, but the authors had to be referring to that individual ability to execute on missions. When the Grey Knights get deployed, they get the job done.

Yes that's exactly what I've been trying to say! That's what I mean when I've said it's not a matter of numbers. You've obviously expressed what I meant far better than I have.

Macro batteries and lances don't care about their personal strength, purity of soul or armour. Give me a few imperial navy battle cruisers and I'll get rid of those heretics in no time


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Does anyone have some spare daemons I was told that that was the best bait for Grey Knights.

Deathwatch get gak done as well. The only thing is Inquisitors see them as more expendable and use their position to send them into operations more often with very little intel. Remember as your numbers increase you get more replaceable, Inquisitors are donkey-caves.

Also, 40k might possibly be the only fictional setting you can disregard WoG. I mean we got the Finest Warriors of the Imperium Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves. The best swordsman to ever live Azreal, Crowe, Sigismund. Remember your faction is always the best

In the battle against Angron and his 12 bloodthirster retinue (yikes!), an entire COMPANY of Grey Knight TERMINATORS was fielded, and 20 survived. That is to say: Ouch for everyone involved, but yeah, there were still GKs around afterwards.
And besides, on a battlefield on which an actual, living Daemon Primarch is present, After witnessing one of the Imperium's legends as a Daemon Prince, I think I would LOVE to know that there was an organization out there that guarded against such madness.

Plaz wrote:
In the battle against Angron and his 12 bloodthirster retinue (yikes!), an entire COMPANY of Grey Knight TERMINATORS was fielded, and 20 survived. That is to say: Ouch for everyone involved, but yeah, there were still GKs around afterwards.
And besides, on a battlefield on which an actual, living Daemon Primarch is present, After witnessing one of the Imperium's legends as a Daemon Prince, I think I would LOVE to know that there was an organization out there that guarded against such madness.

That is the target that Grey Knights specialize against though, they and all of their equipment were designed specifically to combat that one type of enemy. I would argue that against Orks or Tyranids the Grey Knights would be only marginally better than any other Astartes, if at all.

EDIT: Also, after witnessing said organization you would either be executed, or if you were a particularly important individual you would be mind-wiped

 Orblivion wrote:
That is the target that Grey Knights specialize against though, they and all of their equipment were designed specifically to combat that one type of enemy. I would argue that against Orks or Tyranids the Grey Knights would be only marginally better than any other Astartes, if at all.

An argument without probability.

Hellfire rounds are specifically designed against Tyranids, but they cut down Orks just as well.

True, but both are fundamentally organic beings - some hideously complex viral acid is going to leave a scar.

Daemons are of a completely different nature and follow a different set of physical laws, where the phase of the moon may be more relevant to how far they can throw a blade than the weight of the blade, for example. The weapons and armour wielded by the knights are designed to fight on precisely such a battlefield.

A hellfire shell and a psybolt are still bolt rounds, so a headshot will still kill a genestealer and a bloodletter alike.

With a glancing hit, or against a carnifex or greater daemon, the difference will be much more noticeable.

Force weapons are quite effective vs orks

Anything is quite effective versus an ork. A generic ork boy is tough, but not that tough - just like an unarmoured astartes is.

A force weapon will kill one, but at a cost of psychic fatigue (not really relevant in 40k, which tracks neither ammo limits nor fatigue) and associated risks of psychic powers (represented by Perils Of The Warp). At the same time, you'd have done probably just as well with a chainblade (especially paired with a bolt pistol. But Grey Knights don't carry sidearms as standard).

A few pointers if you abide by the Codex Grey Knights lore:
Their mere existence is one of Imperiums best-kept secrets and WILL be protected with lethal force even against other Astartes. There are extremely few persons who know about GKs. Probably not even most Inquisitors outside Ordo Malleus do.
There is a very good reason why Grey Knights are such a secret. Many of the things they routinely do could be seen as downright heretical and treasonous. Using xeno tech? Check. Sacrificing innocents in dark rituals to protect themselves from demonic powers? Check. Harboring daemons and daemonic items on their homeworld? Check. Using unsactified technology? Check. Withholding their geneseed? Check. Assaulting and killing innocent, uncorrupted Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and fellow Astartes just to keep their own existence secret? Check.
The catch is that just seeing a Grey Knight can get you killed. Knowing what you saw will certainly get you killed. Actually knowing what they do will get you hunted around the galaxy untill you are killed.

 Quickjager wrote:
Deathwatch get gak done as well. The only thing is Inquisitors see them as more expendable and use their position to send them into operations more often with very little intel. Remember as your numbers increase you get more replaceable, Inquisitors are donkey-caves.

Also, 40k might possibly be the only fictional setting you can disregard WoG. I mean we got the Finest Warriors of the Imperium Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves. The best swordsman to ever live Azreal, Crowe, Sigismund. Remember your faction is always the best

Deathwatch aren't viewed as any more or less expendable than any other marine/GK thrown into an engagement.

They are expected to complete their mission objective. Whether they live or die is irrelevant.

Deathwatch are seasoned military vets with specific skills and the best equipment a marine can be given for the job at hand. They are hyper elite.

locarno24 wrote:

The Grey Knights do - and have - fought company-strength wars; the sort of foes they face are intended for no-one else to fight. If a Deathwatch force is facing a planetary battlefield, then a 'regular' chapter or the Astra Millitarum/PDF will be doing the heavy lifting - they're a special operations force who'll be quietly winning the war from the shadows or at the tip of a spearhead, not making up the whole battleforce.

When the Grey Knights fought against Mortarion every Brotherhood-Captain was likely present since a new Grandmaster was nominated.

Orblivion wrote:That is the target that Grey Knights specialize against though, they and all of their equipment were designed specifically to combat that one type of enemy. I would argue that against Orks or Tyranids the Grey Knights would be only marginally better than any other Astartes, if at all.

If I recall correctly force weapons are superior to most weapons against tougher creatures Daemonic or otherwise. It would be somewhat similar to every Space Marine being equipped with storm bolters and power weapons. Not to mention every Grey Knight has at least some degree of Psychic potential. Even on the lowest scales that can lead to "luck" which could help them evade a killing blow or land one of their own. In a full scale war Marine to Marine they would have an advantage. In terms of the heavy armour though I am unsure. Same with naval combat. The Grey Knights have very sophisticated craft but I think their speed and ability to navigate the Warp quickly was what was most emphasised.

I thought the current fluff (but not the table top) had each Grey Knight as a potent psyker on the level of IG sanctioned psykers.

The fluff places them as powerful psykers, something the crunch cannot reflect for balance purposes.

It's a side effect of the fluff confusion inversion effect.

The original line was that because of their exposure to daemons, there weren't may psykers among the Grey Knights because the risks were too great, but when there were psykers, they were some of the most powerful the Imperium could get.

Somehow that line "only the strongest psykers may serve in the Grey Knights" became "only the strongest psykers may serve in the Grey Knights".

If I recall correctly force weapons are superior to most weapons against tougher creatures Daemonic or otherwise. It would be somewhat similar to every Space Marine being equipped with storm bolters and power weapons. Not to mention every Grey Knight has at least some degree of Psychic potential. Even on the lowest scales that can lead to "luck" which could help them evade a killing blow or land one of their own. In a full scale war Marine to Marine they would have an advantage. In terms of the heavy armour though I am unsure. Same with naval combat. The Grey Knights have very sophisticated craft but I think their speed and ability to navigate the Warp quickly was what was most emphasised.

Correct. They're supposed to be the fastest (warp) vessels the Imperium can build, at the expense of being dockyard queens that spend as long in maintenance as they do in space.

Force weapons are better against anything, but again, whilst they are better, there are more 'efficient' ways to improve combat potential against mundane opponents. The Deathwatch, for example, last time they had explicit rules as a unit of their own, carried meltabombs as standard armament, and the veterans in a squad could take a mix of powered blades. Both are largely irrelevant against daemons but are very effective against the sort of opponents the Deathwatch fight and are a lot more affordable to produce.