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 jonolikespie wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

- At this early stage, the people who know about the game are most likely to be old Fantasy players, aka people who are pissed off as feth and are leaving in droves. When that mass exodus and drama is over and those people have stepped out of the conversation is right about when new people will start to notice the game, or not. And that's when it's future will be decided.

I get what you're saying here but it just struck me as odd. Despite everything GW are still the biggest name in the hobby right now, and it looks like they put a lot of effort into AoS. Surely if any other company were handling it and had GWs resources there would not be a miniature Wargamer on the planet who hadn't seen AoS. You need a lot of exposure for a release like this, otherwise no communities form initially and later when people look at it they wont be able to join if they want to as it'll not be played in their area.

Aside from the fact that GW barely do any marketing outside of their own magazine and website, my theory is this: There are several categories of players who could be interested in something like AoS. In order of likelihood to look further into the game, they are

- Existing WHFB players. The most likely to look into AoS. These people found a game that is nothing like the game they played and loved. It's a skirmish game and has very simple rules. Nothing to do with WHFB aside from the miniatures. Understandably, many are pissed off and bitter. They leave the game but are often very vocal about it and thus also deter others from trying the game in the short run, until they eventually move on.
- Existing 40K players. These guys could be interested in another GW game, but the barrier of entry is much higher because they may not own any Fantasy models or may not be interested in the fantasy genre. They may also be deterred by the aforementioned vocal WHFB players or by the simplicity of AoS compared to 40K. Still, a viable audience in the long run.
- Existing players of other miniature games. These guys may have little to no interest in current GW, but have probably heard of AoS. They may be attracted to the simplicity of AoS compared to other GW games, maybe they are former GW customers who would like an excuse to come back to a game that needs less commitment (I have seen this quite a few times on this very forum). They may also be deterred by the simplicity. They may dislike GW miniatures or aesthetics. This could be a viable category of customers in the longer run, but probably a smaller one.
- People who don't play miniature games (yet). People who would probably be interested in miniature games, but have not played them for one reason or another. They probably don't know about AoS right now. These customers will most likely take the longest to rope in, but would also be the most valuable customers in the long run since they bring new blood into the hobby and could become "GW gamers" so to speak. This is the jackpot, but one that takes lots of time and effort to get.

 Mymearan wrote:
- People who don't play miniature games (yet). People who would probably be interested in miniature games, but have not played them for one reason or another. They probably don't know about AoS right now. These customers will most likely take the longest to rope in, but would also be the most valuable customers in the long run since they bring new blood into the hobby and could become "GW gamers" so to speak. This is the jackpot, but one that takes lots of time and effort to get.

I agree with what you said and I'd like to focus on this particular group.

It just seems very counter productive of GW to not even bother to boost up their marketing of AoS to this particular group, as it is clearly they way they need to go if they really intend to revitalize a possible fantasy setting/game for the brand. Of course the fact that they mostly run single man shops nowadays and generally have expressed disdain for FLGS doesn't help, and I am not one to avoid chalking this specific lack of marketing foresight as typical GW arrogance, or just outright ignorance. They will take twice as long to get to the desired target groups with this void-marketing strategy.

Speaking purely from a sales point of view, AoS could've made so much more money already if it only had a different marketing machine behind it. Actually, any GW game could.

Your analysis of potential market segmentation is IMO correct.

The challenge for GW is that the hardest people to interest are complete newcomers, and they are most likely to be roped in by existing customers. Complete newbies need all sorts of enthusiastic help with how to play, how to choose armies, how to model them up and so on.

Thus the pissing off of large swathes of current customers together with the widespread adoption of one-man shops may not have been the cleverest marketing strategy.

As for how the game is going locally, I regularly visit a number of GW shops around the south of England (London, Reading, Oxford, Windsor, etc.)

All the shops have got it in stock, and if they have space they are playing it alongside 40K and LoTR. Before the schools went back I saw some youngsters in the shops -- 10 to 12 year olds with their mothers, a key target market. Now the schools are back, it is mostly student and 30 year old types. No doubt things will pick up at half term.

However the GW shop experience is currently a horrible mess with inconsistent presentation of everything.

Even the name and colours of the shops are different.

The games within them are not clearly differentiated: Warhammer is present as Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Age of Sigmar. The similarity of core units (Sigmarines and Chaos compared with Space Marines and Chaos) is confusing. I know to the initiated the difference between a Sigmarine and a Space Marine is very clear, but to the newcomer, they are all small bits of grey plastic with axes and swords, cloaks, banners and spikes and skulls.

There are still heaps of Warhammer Fantasy branded kits on the shelves. There's nothing to show you these are playable in AoS, and they are easy to confuse with Lord of the Rings Fantasy. Warhammer Age of Sigmar Fantasy is also rather similar to LoTR. There is very little to inform you that these are three separate games with different models and rules.

This is I believe another failure of marketing by GW. Perhaps inevitable since their game universes are superficially rather similar to each other. An SF Fantasy game called Warhammer and a Fantasy game called Warhammer Fantasy, and a Fantasy game called Warhammer Age of Sigmar.

These are my impressions from GW's own shops. I haven't visited any FLGS or clubs to see what is going on there. So really I am talking about the principle marketing presentation of the game, not its actual take-up rate by players.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I also regularly visit model shops including the Model Zone areas in WH Smiths, and large bookshops like Waterstones. There is zero GW presence in any of these except the occasional wodge of Warhammer Visions on the newsstand where it competes with a number of other wargaming magazines.

Got a local bunch, a few of which were very excited to start playing. One even enlarged his Bretonnian army in preparation. After release, they've pretty much dropped it. The bretonnian player, who really enjoys 40k and previous versions of Fantasy, was more than a little upset at the game. He, a dedicated mantic hater, was genuinely considering trying Kings of War!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Thus the pissing off of large swathes of current customers together with the widespread adoption of one-man shops may not have been the cleverest marketing strategy.

Being one of the pissed off players, I can pretty much tell you that if my neophyte of a nephew was more into Fantasy than 40k, I'd calmly have directed his attentions to Mordheim or Malifaux and find other miniatures for him. Then I'd eventually slap him with the KoW rulebook in the face for xmas or something. But since he likes 40k Tau... *Loads Heavy Bolter*

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Another thing worth mentioning is that I also regularly visit model shops including the Model Zone areas in WH Smiths, and large bookshops like Waterstones. There is zero GW presence in any of these except the occasional wodge of Warhammer Visions on the newsstand where it competes with a number of other wargaming magazines.

I still can't wrap my head my head around how much GW is losing by pretty much alienating the FLGS. It's such a mind bogglingly bad move from them.Do they really think Visions is enough?

played a game yesterday with a friend who hasnt played for 15/16 years he had a blast, which was nice

Im not really sure how stores are doing around here, but as far as me and my friends we have gone from 4 people playing nothing to 4 people playing AoS.

Slowly picking up speed here. We have loads of disgruntled fantasy players and some of them are willing to try out Azyr Comp if it makes AoS remotely playable. We also noted a small influx of new people starting armies just for AoS. Seems to be on a steady course towards a stable gaming group.

There are still people playing AoS, but it seems that KoW is picking up more steam than is AoS. The FLGS has an active FB group with lots of little sub-groups for people who play different game systems trying to set up a match. The KoW group has been hitting my newsfeed all the time, while not so much with the AoS group. (I don't play either, though.)

Regarding MaCA's post: I would encourage you to look at the Project Point Cost rules in the AOS Proposed Rules section of this forum. There is no way to balance AOS using just warscrolls and wounds. A Forge World Chaos Mammoth (Monster Warscroll) has no equal within the monster catagory, and that is just one example. There are many. I run the league in my store and I couldn't find a balancing rules set that worked using warscrolls. Each warscroll needs to be point costed.

Deader then disco, but, on a side note, Kings of War is picking up steam as is Warmahordes!

Never took off in my area.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Regarding MaCA's post: I would encourage you to look at the Project Point Cost rules in the AOS Proposed Rules section of this forum. There is no way to balance AOS using just warscrolls and wounds. A Forge World Chaos Mammoth (Monster Warscroll) has no equal within the monster catagory, and that is just one example. There are many. I run the league in my store and I couldn't find a balancing rules set that worked using warscrolls. Each warscroll needs to be point costed.

Azyr comp does not use wounds or warscrolls. It uses points.

I go to a GW shop and 3 FLGS. I've yet to see a single AoS game played at any of the FLGS and they say they're selling slowly. The GW shop says Sigmar is selling great but I doubt it. I do occasionally see AoS played at GW but at about a 3:1 ratio to 40K and I never see AoS played at any FLGS.

40K ought outsell and outplay AoS by three to one, really. 40K is GW's no.1 product line.

Yeah, a 20-30 year-old popular game kinda wins over a 3 month-old one.

Picking up steam and at a fair pace here. Whfb was dead on the shelf for two years. Sales of AoS are continuing steadily but the players are coming back. A regular night is now in place for pick up games. I'm only back in these forums because of it. I like the game in a fashion. Hoping 40k gets the same treatment though my wallet might hate me LOL.

Our group just picked a new player today, which is neat! Someone who had quit Fantasy Battle a decade ago, and coming back with their Chaos army. They are planning to build a new Vampire Counts force.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Regarding MaCA's post: I would encourage you to look at the Project Point Cost rules in the AOS Proposed Rules section of this forum. There is no way to balance AOS using just warscrolls and wounds. A Forge World Chaos Mammoth (Monster Warscroll) has no equal within the monster catagory, and that is just one example. There are many. I run the league in my store and I couldn't find a balancing rules set that worked using warscrolls. Each warscroll needs to be point costed.

As I mentioned before, we're using Azyr Comp for our tourneys and, for the most part, it seems to work. There are more players that quit WHFB than there are playing AoS right now though, and the quitters aren't willing to try out AoS, even with a community points system. Dunno why, really, as it basically accomplishes what was needed throughout WHFB existence: 1. up-to-date armies 2. up-to-date point values and 3. continued rule support in form of FAQs (or just corrections to the main comp document).

I think the problem is that people wanted those things in a unit based mass battle game, not a skirmish game that can be scales/bloated up to mass battle.

 MaCa wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
Regarding MaCA's post: I would encourage you to look at the Project Point Cost rules in the AOS Proposed Rules section of this forum. There is no way to balance AOS using just warscrolls and wounds. A Forge World Chaos Mammoth (Monster Warscroll) has no equal within the monster catagory, and that is just one example. There are many. I run the league in my store and I couldn't find a balancing rules set that worked using warscrolls. Each warscroll needs to be point costed.

As I mentioned before, we're using Azyr Comp for our tourneys and, for the most part, it seems to work. There are more players that quit WHFB than there are playing AoS right now though, and the quitters aren't willing to try out AoS, even with a community points system. Dunno why, really, as it basically accomplishes what was needed throughout WHFB existence: 1. up-to-date armies 2. up-to-date point values and 3. continued rule support in form of FAQs (or just corrections to the main comp document).

But you're missing 4. A large scale fantasy battle with blocks of units and heavy emphasis on movement and strategy. (at least until 8th) 5. Well established grim dark fluff with known and beloved characters from over 20 years.

slowly dying in my local store, because of the way the game has been designed only the bandwagon jumping waac tfg's are left (they don't like it if you talk smack about AoS because a rules set that supports their toxic attitude is the best thing that ever happened to them). not supprised really as that seems like the group the rules would attract. hardly see any stuff getting sold as all the people who play just don't buy anything. most of the people who used to play WHFB came in on the day of release, hated it and were never seen again, sad really as there were some great folks. interestingly the end times generated the most interest in my local store and we saw a huge increase in new players, no doubt the release of AoS p*ss*d most of them off as they'd only just started collecting and had already spent money on books etc.

You are right, Azyr Comp uses points, but the system is super basic. Models aren't point costed individually. Typically you are assigned points by the scenario and 5 of trooper "X" costs 1 point. I found that this is not specific enough and breaks down in particular with Ogor armies. Play a few games with Azyr Comp Ogors vs anything and check their win/loss record after. Azyr Comp was the first system I tried and then I moved to Project Point Cost. The PPC isn't perfect, but it gets regular updates, most armies are on version 6!

Azyr comp is updated every week for the most part. It has had around 45 revisions since July based off of playtester feedback.

Also the win / loss percentages were posted after 550 games and they are all pretty close together.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664850.page

It was designed to be basic and not a precision system, which are the types of systems that we are used to.

Understandably, a non-precision system is not going to be to everyone's tastes, but the system is tested regularly and receives regular updates and has a very tight win/loss percentage overall from what has been reported.

 Glasdir wrote:
slowly dying in my local store, because of the way the game has been designed only the bandwagon jumping waac tfg's are left (they don't like it if you talk smack about AoS because a rules set that supports their toxic attitude is the best thing that ever happened to them). not supprised really as that seems like the group the rules would attract. hardly see any stuff getting sold as all the people who play just don't buy anything. most of the people who used to play WHFB came in on the day of release, hated it and were never seen again, sad really as there were some great folks. interestingly the end times generated the most interest in my local store and we saw a huge increase in new players, no doubt the release of AoS p*ss*d most of them off as they'd only just started collecting and had already spent money on books etc.

AoS is basically the opposite of a WAAC game. Very hard to play unless you and your opponent are both willing to compromise on things like army composition and rules interpretations. I can't imagine a WAAC player enjoying it unless they're playing with another WAACer. I have been having a lot of fun with non-WAACers though.

 MWHistorian wrote:
... 5. Well established grim dark fluff with known and beloved characters from over 20 years.

Not to knock mantic fluff, but I basically took the 8th edition Tomb Kings book and taped the appropriate 'dust' unit entries and rules over the existing ones. Viola, beloved fluff with KOW rules!

There's a Monster Warscroll? Where about's has that been hidden?

 Mymearan wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:
slowly dying in my local store, because of the way the game has been designed only the bandwagon jumping waac tfg's are left (they don't like it if you talk smack about AoS because a rules set that supports their toxic attitude is the best thing that ever happened to them). not supprised really as that seems like the group the rules would attract. hardly see any stuff getting sold as all the people who play just don't buy anything. most of the people who used to play WHFB came in on the day of release, hated it and were never seen again, sad really as there were some great folks. interestingly the end times generated the most interest in my local store and we saw a huge increase in new players, no doubt the release of AoS p*ss*d most of them off as they'd only just started collecting and had already spent money on books etc.

AoS is basically the opposite of a WAAC game. Very hard to play unless you and your opponent are both willing to compromise on things like army composition and rules interpretations. I can't imagine a WAAC player enjoying it unless they're playing with another WAACer. I have been having a lot of fun with non-WAACers though.

I'd say it is the perfect WAAC game. There is literally nothing within the rules themselves to stop someone being a . I've seen something similar locally where the only guy who has been keen for it is someone who I knew from the local Fantasy tourneys who would try to bring the cheesiest thing possible. Also, I think you are confusing WAAC with Competitive players there. Two competitive players would need to play each other to have fun, the point of a WAAC player is that they are happy to steamroll a kid having his second game. That's why they are WAAC and not just competitive.

I have never seen a person play AoS. Then again, that is only slightly worse than Fantasy Battle, so it was perhaps a gamble they had to make.

Went to a local gaming store today. They had 9 starter sets in the clearance bin at $40 each. Not doing well at that store. I hope to demo it to get more interest.