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I think part of the fun in playing games based in history is changing the result, though, even if it's just in your own personal game. Like rebuilding the Roman Empire in Crusader Kings 2.

I wonder if they would do something like that in the Total War game. An extremely difficult and secret campaign result where you can change the fate of the old world...

Probably not.

Might end up going the way of dreadfleet or any of the other specialist type games over the years.

Even my friend who likes the game doesn't intend to buy any new models for it.

I really think GW dropped the ball on this by making it a totally new game (NOT Warhammer 9th, as they told us repeatedly) but had NO support for this new game and expected the remains of WHFB to carry it.



Think about it for a minute, remove all the WHFB stuff and look at AoS as its own game, it only has 2 real factions in the khornites and the sigmarines. It doesn't list the fluff for the other races in the core book beyond mentioning their names in 4 small paragraphs describing the wider factions.

Most new games you see seem to aim for 4 factions on release (with the exception of Star Wars I suppose). On release. AoS took close to 3 months to even get those 2 factions established. Others also give good, often very well detailed, overviews of each faction in the core book because it is the core book, it is supposed to be your first introduction to these races and factions, you should be able to read all about them, what they are like and how they fight.

Stripping out the WHFB remnants it is really a terribly under supported game.

imo GW should have released a fluff bible like book with it, especially since they are trying to establish an entirely new setting, or at least included similar faction sections like the old 8th ed book had. They should have at least released dwarves and orcs alongside the sigmarines and khornites (I'd also argue High Elves and Dark Elves or throw some undead in there somewhere but that's just me). 4 races to have on release, giving each a starter box with some core troops, a hero or two, and a smaller group of elite troops is a solid start to a game. From there they can do what they seem to be wanting to do with creating an advancing storyline and introducing more material as needed, but they would be starting the game off with two feet on solid ground.

^ There's more like 4 factions: Stormcast Eternals, Bloodtide, Rot Bringers & Clan Pestilens and Sylvaneth.

Sure the later are rebranded WHFB models, but otherwise they tick all the boxes with fluff dedicated to them and a good range of models from heroes to troops to big monsters and machines.

 Los pollos hermanos wrote:
Might end up going the way of dreadfleet or any of the other specialist type games over the years.

Even my friend who likes the game doesn't intend to buy any new models for it.

Saying that after 3 months and only two released armies is a bit premature, don't you think? New games can take years to gain a big following.

Stormcast Eternals, Bloodtide and to a lesser extent Sylvaneth maybe the only ones for now but there is nothing stopping you from downloading the world that was war scrolls and playing your old armies or starting new ready for when the ongoing story of the game releases that army.

 BlackLobster wrote:
Stormcast Eternals, Bloodtide and to a lesser extent Sylvaneth maybe the only ones for now but there is nothing stopping you from downloading the world that was war scrolls and playing your old armies or starting new ready for when the ongoing story of the game releases that army.

Most people are probably a bit scared to do that because they don't know if they will be replaced... that's probably GWs biggest mistake IMO.

It was gaming night in our local GW last night. I had a game booked in with a regular opponent (all around great guy), but there were two new players at the store too so we ended up having a 4 player free-for-all.

One player was a returned regular who had almost given up on 8th Edition Fantasy after having his Lizardmen wrecked by 'Pit of Shades' game after game. He was back with a Minotaur heavy Beastmen army, the other new guy had Ogors, I played Vampire Counts and my friend played Dark Elves.

It was an amazingly fun game with lots of twists and lots of great moments. The Ogor Stonehorn and the Dark Elf Hydra facing off was a great fight (with the Stonehorn winning). The Stonehorn then rampaged through a forest, squashing my poor Necromancer to a pulp while he was busy summoning Spirit Hosts. Said Spirit Hosts, finally killed the Stonehorn, went on to slaughter a unit of Minotaurs (scoring 8 Mortal wounds in one round of combat).

Victory looked like it could be mine, except the last remaining Beastman, a Bray Shaman, started Arcane Bolting my Spirits into oblivion.

The final fight came down to the Ogor Tyrant and the Shaman. When the dust settled only the Ogor was left standing on the board.

Super close fight, super fun game with lots of laughs through-out. And no doubt two more regulars to our AoS pool :-)

 infinite_array wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

The biggest GW related video game coming out in the near future is set in the old WHFB world.

Two of them are. Total War: Warhammer will probably bring in a lot of people based on the popularity of the Total War series. And Vermintide, another game set in the Old World, is a Left 4 Dead style game that actually looks pretty good.

Eh, I just went for the biggest one. But yeah Vermintide looks really good, the fact that they're discounting its pre-order to less than $30 CDN (I imagine that makes it somewhere between $20 and $25 USD?) also helps.

Oh and to be on topic, I'll check to see if AoS has moved here. Nope still a corpse.

dead

 Mymearan wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Stormcast Eternals, Bloodtide and to a lesser extent Sylvaneth maybe the only ones for now but there is nothing stopping you from downloading the world that was war scrolls and playing your old armies or starting new ready for when the ongoing story of the game releases that army.

Most people are probably a bit scared to do that because they don't know if they will be replaced... that's probably GWs biggest mistake IMO.

There is that but then you could still play them alongside the new models using the world that was codex. Nothing to stop you combining the two.

 BlackLobster wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Stormcast Eternals, Bloodtide and to a lesser extent Sylvaneth maybe the only ones for now but there is nothing stopping you from downloading the world that was war scrolls and playing your old armies or starting new ready for when the ongoing story of the game releases that army.

Most people are probably a bit scared to do that because they don't know if they will be replaced... that's probably GWs biggest mistake IMO.

There is that but then you could still play them alongside the new models using the world that was codex. Nothing to stop you combining the two.

Depends. If the new "humans or whatever" faction has a totally different aesthetic or scale, then the old Empire (or whatever) models might look out of place next to them.

Dead on arrival. My FLGS did get some stock (starting box set plus some sigmarines) but it's been sitting on the shelf for quite some time.

Some of the 40k players showed some interest on the models themselves, but the interest died quickly after asking about prices.

In the end, the local gaming scene has been so far unaffected by Fantasy's demise and the arrival of AoS. The 40k group keeps playing 40k, the Fantasy group keeps playing Fantasy (mostly 8th ed. although there seems to be a growing interest in trying older editions, specially 6th), and the small Infinity group keeps playing Infinity too. Nobody plays AoS. So far I've watched a single game around here, dark elves against skaven I think, the guys played it, had some laughs about how bad it was and then got back to their usual business.

At last nights game session,our group had a new member join,another player that had long givin up on whfb and was very happy to have found a group to play with as hes loved the game since it came out.
This brings our weekly group numbers to around 12 or so players.I should note that this game shop had little to no WHFB group prior to AoS and its a store that is very large and packs in north of one hundred people on weekends playing any games you can imagine(yes MTG is about half that number).

Anyhow,I was pleased to find out from a visiting club member that lives on the other side of town that his group at the local shop there is drawing 6 or so players every week at their session.Yet another shop that had zero prior WHFB action.

It seems to me that this whole topic is people just posting how much merchandise stores have and haven't sold of AoS.That really isn't a good indicator of the popularity..keep in mind that unless you want to play the new factions,theres no reason at all to buy the starter set or any models from them.Many of the past players have the armies they like and are waiting for new stuff to be released for them.

Perhaps a better poll to take is if AoS has revived the dead WHFB scene in your area...

Oh and rem,what you see on posting boards is a VERY small percentage of gamers and their opinions.

There are plenty of indicators that the game is in the toilet. Besides wide spread internet hate, plenty of areas report the opposite of your situation.

None of the big tournies have pick it up as a primary. Fantasy models are selling for some times 20% of their value on ebay. None of the LE stuff has sold out. And there is a huge division as to what method of play is the standard among players.

Even google searches for WFB out pace AoS. https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F03mf9x%2C%20Age%20of%20Sigmar&date=1%2F2015%2012m&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2

We of course won't know for sure until the annual reports start coming in. However, right now it doesn't look good for AoS.

Not the most scientific thing out there but that google trends link is interesting. It is a surprisingly big difference.

I would imagine the difference is largely due to the Total War game, and the big spike probably when the game was first announced/ first trailer came out.

The LE's not selling is an indicator however. Personally I think GW did lots of things right with AoS, but the Stormcast miss the mark for me.

Haters are louder than lovers.
And they'd like so much AoS to fail, maybe because they think GW would continue on WHFB (which was almost dead), they spend their time on forums to claim AoS sucks and is not selling.
Will the Aos players... play
Probably not in shops. I wouldn't like having haters all around me while I'm playing, telling the game I play sucks, and always comparing it to WHFB. Not quite a good ambiance to enjoy my new game.

Let's wait a bit for them to accept the end of WHFB and let AoS live.
In the meantime, GW will have released a few armies which will give us a better indication of the game direction and taste.

Only then, we'll be able to know if the game has a futur.

Btw, it would be stupid to believe a new game, even based on WHFB would have immediately made a success his predecessor built over 20 years.

Wulfenson wrote:
Haters are louder than lovers.

And that just might say something about the quality of the game

 jonolikespie wrote:

Wulfenson wrote:
Haters are louder than lovers.

And that just might say something about the quality of the game

Doesn't matter, we're just "haterz" and couldn't possibly have any legitamite criticisms of the game and the associated dumbfethery that GW have done in destroying one of their most beloved universes with three decades of background. Nope. Nosireebob. It's just mindless hate.

Wulfenson wrote:
Haters are louder than lovers.
And they'd like so much AoS to fail, maybe because they think GW would continue on WHFB (which was almost dead), they spend their time on forums to claim AoS sucks and is not selling.
Will the Aos players... play
Probably not in shops. I wouldn't like having haters all around me while I'm playing, telling the game I play sucks, and always comparing it to WHFB. Not quite a good ambiance to enjoy my new game.

Let's wait a bit for them to accept the end of WHFB and let AoS live.
In the meantime, GW will have released a few armies which will give us a better indication of the game direction and taste.

Only then, we'll be able to know if the game has a futur.

Btw, it would be stupid to believe a new game, even based on WHFB would have immediately made a success his predecessor built over 20 years.

You know you could at least contribute to the thread.

Sure I myself went off topic for a bit, but I did respond to the topic.

 jonolikespie wrote:
And that just might say something about the quality of the game

That just might also say you try to convice yourself. Shouting something doesn't make it true

The fact is WHFB was dying, AoS didn't kill it.
Look at the sales you are now trying to use to argue against AoS.

The game was the less newcomers friendly in the business. Too big armies and too complexes rules for beginners.

So, only old gamer were still buying new models. This is why sales were going down. Old gamers can only stop playing, and they are not replaced by newbies.

What I don't understand, is why don't you keep playing WHFB with your friend ?
GW did stop new releases for the rules you (WHFB players) already were saying they were bad.
Yes.
But that's all.
You can still play with.
And I am sure the community will provide profiles for the new models.

So what's wrong ?
Why do you waste your time on the forum of a game you don't like instead of playing your beloved WHFB 8th ?

To answer the topic, AoS is doing great in my area (east of France), and many players are waiting for new releases to jump in or not.

 Bottle wrote:
I would imagine the difference is largely due to the Total War game, and the big spike probably when the game was first announced/ first trailer came out.

The LE's not selling is an indicator however. Personally I think GW did lots of things right with AoS, but the Stormcast miss the mark for me.

Yea that is why I said we have to wait. There are just a lot of signs pointing to a bad reception. Nothing is concrete, but the arguement people have that well my store is selling well so your wrong or the converse my store has no boxes moving doesn't really mean anything. I think some things GW did better with AoS, but far more did worse.

Wulfenson wrote:
Haters are louder than lovers.
And they'd like so much AoS to fail, maybe because they think GW would continue on WHFB (which was almost dead), they spend their time on forums to claim AoS sucks and is not selling.
Will the Aos players... play
Probably not in shops. I wouldn't like having haters all around me while I'm playing, telling the game I play sucks, and always comparing it to WHFB. Not quite a good ambiance to enjoy my new game.

Look if you come into my LGS and play AoS none of the players are going to say get out. You will get to play free of charge and abuse just like every other game. If people are being mean to you based on your game, that isn't hating that is just a bunch of bad peple showing up to your store.

AoS is just an average run of the mill game in a sea of already established skirmish games. I am not hating it because of WFB, I dislike it because it doesn't do anything special. I actually want AoS to fail because the game is bad for the hobby. It is basically the culmination of all of GWs bad decisions.

GW still doesn't talk to their customers. AoS reinforces the GW idea of we know what is best for you. They took a huge portion of their customer base and say F-U play this game or nothing at all. They continue to punish LGS and Veteran players.

It continues to drive the idea of a GW brand by making models overly expensive. They are nice models, but there is really nothing so amazing about them that they required such a huge pice increase. All the old stuff has gone direct order. They changed to round bases for basically no reason other than to save money by not producing square bases. (i am not really opposed to this one) What I don't like is the stupid stack your models on top of each other rule.

The free rules are a marketing trick, you aren't really supposed to use them long term. You are supposed to buy the campaign books that are also expensive to play theme games with all their different new model types. That is why the rules are bare boned with only a basic victory condition. They don't really want an out of the box pick up game. They want it to basically be drop X money a month on this week's campaign book and then buy one of every new model we come out with.

The rules are a mess. There is some good ideas inside, but the game plays like there is no difference between a goblin and a super warrior Stormcast. There are zero attempts at balance, it is just what looks cool and oh if you buy lots of models you get a bunch of bonuses. The worst part is they stuck with the you go I go system and actively made it worse. Now you can possibly not really get to play for 2 turns in a row.

All this happened because they don't care about gamers. The time and effort I put into hobbying, converting, painting is irrelevant because I game and don't make up their core demographic or so they believe. If AoS is a success this policy will continue and the games I play will disappear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfenson wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
And that just might say something about the quality of the game

Why do you waste your time on the forum of a game you don't like instead of playing your beloved WHFB 8th ?

The question applies to you as well. Why are you wasting time on a forum when you could be enjoying another topic discussing the game or making your own?

For me it is AoS completely killed WFB in northern new jersey. No one plays it any more because they were tired of GW's crap. (opinion) They are not playing AoS either.

The guys I know that used to moved on to Kings of War. I don't really like KOW because it is missing "heart" so to speak. It is a decent game, just not exactly what I am looking for.

Moreover I don't really want to play dead zone 8th anymore. I want to play a game that had support and was striving to fix the problems within its rules. So now I have to wait for some players in Europe to releases 9th Age and hope it is still WFB and solves the problems that existed in 8th. Then sell it to those KOW guys.

Wulfenson wrote:

Why do you waste your time on the forum of a game you don't like instead of playing your beloved WHFB 8th ?

.

Oh, this old chestnut...

To quote what I put in a similar thread-

I feel this article from Cracked is appropriate.

Esp. this part.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

Now sub "Warhammer" and/or "GW" in there.

Wulfenson wrote:
So what's wrong ?
Why do you waste your time on the forum of a game you don't like instead of playing your beloved WHFB 8th ?

Believe it or not sometimes people come to a discussions forum to discuss the topics of said forum.

@NerdTCM (Dakka won't let me quote your post for some reason)
AoS not being picked up by tournaments is probably the one thing GW knew would happen with AoS release for certain.
The game has had any kind of balance or competitive play wiring pulled out. I'd be massively surprised if an established tournament picked it up, so the fact this hasn't happened isn't a measure of success or failure on the scales GW are interested in.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of AoS events begin to appear over the next year though, similar to the campaign weekends at GW HQ.

I have yet to play a single game of AoS using any kind of comp system.
From my perspective, it will take time for people to get used to playing the game as intended and that comp isn't necessary - but in my group all the WAAC/TFG/Numpties/whatever got weeded out quite some time ago, leaving just guys who want to have a fun game and share roughly the same views on how to achieve that.
So I'm not familiar with the experience of forced pick-ups/local club rules etc. that people are having difficulty with and need some kind of comp to insure against problems.

RoperPG wrote:
@NerdTCM (Dakka won't let me quote your post for some reason)
AoS not being picked up by tournaments is probably the one thing GW knew would happen with AoS release for certain.
The game has had any kind of balance or competitive play wiring pulled out. I'd be massively surprised if an established tournament picked it up, so the fact this hasn't happened isn't a measure of success or failure on the scales GW are interested in.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of AoS events begin to appear over the next year though, similar to the campaign weekends at GW HQ.

I have yet to play a single game of AoS using any kind of comp system.
From my perspective, it will take time for people to get used to playing the game as intended and that comp isn't necessary - but in my group all the WAAC/TFG/Numpties/whatever got weeded out quite some time ago, leaving just guys who want to have a fun game and share roughly the same views on how to achieve that.
So I'm not familiar with the experience of forced pick-ups/local club rules etc. that people are having difficulty with and need some kind of comp to insure against problems.

And one of the GW stores tried to make a competitive system and posted it up, the manager nearly got gak canned and was reamed out hardcore for it.

@nedTCM
I agree models are very expensives.
But other games models are generally very far below GW's recent releases.

When deciding the base for a new game, round bases seems to be logical. since they use it with 40K too.
They didn't change the bases of WHFM. They decided the bases of their new game would be round. Nothing to be upset at.
For former WHFB player, they don't even have to change their bases.

The rules are simple en clear for me, I don't ask for more. I understand you don't like it. Hopefully, there are a lot of games to play, you may find the one who fits your requirements.
Objectives and missions is accessory, I can make it myself.
What I ask to a toy soldier game is good models and clear rules.
That's what AoS provides, and it's enough for me. I don't expect and game compagny to tell me what scenario / army race / army size etc.... to use.

GW cares about gamers,since they buy the stuff the sell.
They care about how to make them keep buying.
WHFB was selling less and less, they had to fix it.
They made a big bet with AoS, let's see how it will do.
I believe that once the anger will be cooled down, and after a few releases, we'll see where it goes.
Today, I assume that with the models quality and its experience, GW will do something fine with AoS.
And for me it is a good news since I wanted to play WHFB since a long time, but the requirements (number of models / fat rules) were too high to begin.

Yea I am not saying that the end of the game is clear. It is just not a far jump to that conclusion.

I have a theory that AoS is designed as a huge cost saving measure. I remember reading somewhere the WFB wasn't actually selling poorly. It was making money just not as much by comparison of 40k. The idea being WFB is cumbersome to produce with so many units for so many factions. (many of which sell poorly for one reason or another). AoS basically put all those factions to webstore only. Now if you need to buy something you have to go through GW not a reseller who has a discount. In addition, you can cut production for those units that don't sell well and essentially make them made to order. If you are Veterans that is still buying stuff you technically still have an army. If you weren't buying they don't care. As a GW customer, they want you to buy at least one of every model. Otherwise you aren't really a customer to them and not part of their target audience.

Now there is no more unsold product cluttering shelves. All that is there is the cheap AoS box and 40k stuff. All the AoS stuff is premium price high quality stuff to reinforce the GW brand. They don't really think gamers matter as much either so they rules team for AoS is bare bones, just focus on stuff that sounds cool and call it a day. As a result, even lower sales could be a success.

As for the rules, the thing is AoS actually encourages WAAC play. There was never anything stopping you before from taking a completely themed army. All that existed was a hero and core troop requirement. It forced you to keep from buying all Demigryphs and going nuts. In AOS, there is no such restriction and you can take from any faction. There are a lot of combos that seem way way over that top. You get bonuses for bring more units. It is really easy for a WAAC play to construct a power list that falls into the rules and sudden death isn't a solution. (in some cases it is actually worse) Between your friends it is fine. Right now you are just on of the lucky ones who has a nice core set of opponents that strives to play fair. It is also worth pointing out how it different from unbound 40k, in that there is still a goal army appearance. You know what a "fair army" should look like 1 HQ and 2 Troops is the goal even if you go unbound. You could of course competely ignore it for fun. In AOS, there is no core army appearance in the rules or in the fluff.

There are some benefits to do thing this. There is some more freedom in choice. However, you kind of could always do that with WFB. You could take what you want within your army and your friends could alter their list or the game as they see fit. The points system didn't stop that. All that removing it did was make it so pick up games are not really possible. They could have met people half way, but I think they thought that would affect sales so just decided the best way to play is to buy more. At least that is what it seems to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfenson wrote:
@nedTCM
I agree models are very expensives.
But other games models are generally very far below GW's recent releases.

When deciding the base for a new game, round bases seems to be logical. since they use it with 40K too.
They didn't change the bases of WHFM. They decided the bases of their new game would be round. Nothing to be upset at.
For former WHFB player, they don't even have to change their bases.

The rules are simple en clear for me, I don't ask for more. I understand you don't like it. Hopefully, there are a lot of games to play, you may find the one who fits your requirements.
Objectives and missions is accessory, I can make it myself.
What I ask to a toy soldier game is good models and clear rules.
That's what AoS provides, and it's enough for me. I don't expect and game compagny to tell me what scenario / army race / army size etc.... to use.

GW cares about gamers,since they buy the stuff the sell.
They care about how to make them keep buying.
WHFB was selling less and less, they had to fix it.
They made a big bet with AoS, let's see how it will do.
I believe that once the anger will be cooled down, and after a few releases, we'll see where it goes.
Today, I assume that with the models quality and its experience, GW will do something fine with AoS.
And for me it is a good news since I wanted to play WHFB since a long time, but the requirements (number of models / fat rules) were too high to begin.

I didn't say you shouldn't like the game. I am just givng you reasons why I don't and why I am posting in the topic. It is fine to have you opinion, I just disagree.

As for the GW caring about gamers thing. Take a peak at this:

http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3A-relentless-profit-machine

To cut out the good part:

"I’ve got bad news for disenchanted gamers complaining on the Internet. The company’s attitude towards customers is as clinical as its attitude towards staff. If you don’t like what it’s selling. You’re not a customer. The company believes only a fraction of the population are potential hobbyists, and it’s not interested in the others. The move to one-man stores has reduced the number of customers, sometimes by 30%, but the stores are profitable now.

Maybe you think you’re a customer, or a potential customer, because you like playing games. But this is the important bit. This is the bit written in every Games Workshop annual report. The company’s mission statement is “we make the best fantasy miniatures in the world and sell them globally at a profit and we intend to do this forever.”

It does not mention games. In conversation, I’m told that the word “Game” in Games Workshop encourages the misconception that games are its business, but that only about 20% of Games Workshop’s customers are gamers. The rest are modellers and collectors. Maybe half of them think about playing now and then. The other half have no intention. People actually walk into the stores because they’re curious about modelling fantastic armies.

When another shareholder asks if the company would sell games with pre-painted easy to assemble miniatures like the popular Star Wars themed X-Wing game, there’s a collective growl from the Games Workshop people. It wouldn’t be a hobby business then, it would be a toy company."

This goes along with everything GW has said in their releases for years. It makes sense that they would cut down the rules development. The game aspect is not important. If they make sales from you so be it.

It is funny I have a different read of what the AoS army composition (no)rules brings.

By example, in 40k (which I played for years), you have army schemas, and points.
So, your opponent could bring a broken army (we all know death stars), and still look "fair" since it follows the rules.
In AoS, there is no "rules excuse" to look fair.
The judge is your opponent (who is supposed to be a friendly guy willing to have fun playing with toy soldiers).
So you can't head to a local shop hoping for a random game with a broken army like you could with a death star army in 40K.
In AoS, no one would want to play with you, and you'll have to tune down your army to be accepted. No rule excuse to justify your hyper optimized army.
Natural regulation.
It requires a bit of intelligence... this is the bigger risk GW could take

This new way of setting an army makes most of the old players loose their marks, and they have to re-think they way they balance a game. No call to a rule book, you must deal with your opponent fairness. Quite new

To continue on this topic, and to stick to the subject, GW released new rules for small tournament (school league, Bottle posted yesterday). This is another original way to balance a game, let's see how the community reacts. But it is definetly something to try