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Erebus Studios wrote:
I wonder what Canada would be ( no doubt we will not see anything Canadian, as so many don't even register that we were in the war or just lump us with the UK instead of treating us as a separate nation for the war).

I could see very well why being rats for Italy would be considered very offensive perhaps not the most reasonable of choices? ( though a rat army is always cool in fantasy). Its just a very risky move doing even a ww1 / ww2 style fantasy setting , their is still a lot of rough feelings over it and could lead to a lot of losses in potential backers. Wouldn't mind seeing Canadians as Gnolls XD though they would probably make us beavers :/ and surprised to not see the Americans in here as of yet D:.

Whatever they come up with for Canada it better taste good with Mayo .

As for the quality of casts by Prodos...My poor Blaine and his Dino had serious gate issues and lots of flash. Also blaine seems to be too heavy for the poor dino's ankles as he is bending under the weight. I can fix most of the gate issues and got rid of the flash, I just set the model aside for the eventual need to drill through the leg of the dino and give him a metal internal brace to help with the weight. There were no bubbles though, so that's a plus.

 Imposter101 wrote:
Shouldn't the Elves be the Nazis? I mean, they fit the SS bill

> Generally tall
> Blonde hair
> Blue eyes
> Can be muscular

Just get them some summer pea dot or oakleaf ponchos are you are good to go.

That was my thought too. Elves also tend to have a certain... attitude towards other races.

 ashrog wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
Shouldn't the Elves be the Nazis? I mean, they fit the SS bill

> Generally tall
> Blonde hair
> Blue eyes
> Can be muscular

Just get them some summer pea dot or oakleaf ponchos are you are good to go.

That was my thought too. Elves also tend to have a certain... attitude towards other races.

Sounds like a corn-fed American midwesterner to me.

Wow, this forum post is going totally the wrong way.

There are no Nazis in Panzerfauste.

The Dwarves are inspired by German tropes (beer drinking, a fondness for Pork based food and industrial ingenuity). They are led by a Kaiser and have a 'Imperial' structure.

Panzerfauste is meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

Our elves are Light Elves (American) and Dark Elves (Russian). The Dark Elves are not evil, they just have different opinions to the Light Elves and a different structure. They are led by a Tsar.

The Light Elves are American because of the comparison between the Grey Havens in Tolkien and America in our own world. A far and distant land, the land of hope and glory, somewhere that for many is simply a dream.

I like that version better!

@Erebus Studios: Canadians will most certainly get involved...

Though first, they will have to call the ent-moot... I hear those things take a very long time!

You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.

Well, it's one thing to be made into a Rat, and altogether something different if you're a...Nazi!

Throwing the letters "WWII" around for your game you are bound to get some people thinking Germans=Nazis.

Personally I am happy to see a wargame where the Germans didn't go down that path, hell after Zombies and Robots it seems Nazis are the only guilt free antagonists people can think of.

So, in this kind tongue in cheek intent, does this mean that the Rat/Italian was an intentional reasoning. I am personally fine with it but wouldn't expect too many Italians to get it into it if their native army is the vermin race.

Canadians are Ents? Nice. Any hits for other fictional races considered, maybe a full Lizardmen faction? (counting till someone turns up...)

 Theophony wrote:
You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.

This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.

The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.

I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?

I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.

Because it's 2015 and it's trendy to get offended about mundane gak.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.

This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.

The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.

I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?

I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.

The thing is there was obvious thought to the armies. In his own account he says why the Germans are dwarves. So why are Italians rats?(which has a negative connotation to it), or why are the polish (I think that's the country) people troglodytes? I think it would have been better off if he had said I picked a country then threw a dart at a board which had the different races on it. Now if they said the Italians were rats because the Italians are world den own for cheese and catacombs (I think I'll patent that name for a game), then it might come off different, but now it just seems like a slap to the face of Italians (I'm only like 1/128th Italian, so I'm not personally offended).

It's fantasy, it's made up. It's not some kind of statement about nationality, it's a bit of fun.

For the nation that switched sides in both world wars it doesn't seem beyond the pale for that to get twisted into a fantasy race known to backstab - it's just a loose thing to hook a concept around. (They could have a totally different reasoning, which would likely be equally as innocuous)

I wonder if we'll get China as a faction, they always seem to get forgotten from ww2 for some reason

Personally, I would have picked fauns (i.e. ungor) - a race from Roman mythology living in Rome.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Personally, I would have picked fauns (i.e. ungor) - a race from Roman mythology living in Rome.

Or Wolves as Rome was founded by Remus and Romulus who were saved by a she-wolf. So you could have your werewolf army right there.

 Theophony wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Personally, I would have picked fauns (i.e. ungor) - a race from Roman mythology living in Rome.

Or Wolves as Rome was founded by Remus and Romulus who were saved by a she-wolf. So you could have your werewolf army right there.

That would work - werewolves are more closely associated with Germany than Italy, but if you wanted to do something different from the usual "Operation Werwolf using actual Werewolves" then Rome's mythic origin is a good excuse to do that.

Oooo...wolves would've been a sweet choice!

Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Come on, Black Shirts - Black Rats... Easy!

I'm not offended.in the slightest, used to pay Flintloque where everyone was a fantasy race and I would be a dirty Scottish rat.

I'm not entirely comfortable with that sort of thing now that I'm more of aliberal hippy, but it has sort of piqued my curiosity after you explained why Dwarves were chosen to be the Germans. I would welcome your thoughts on why certain races were chosen to represent certain countries and nationalities. I ask only because the floodgates were sort of opened by yourself on that front.

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!

 Alpharius wrote:

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!

Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.

 Theophony wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.

This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.

The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.

I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?

I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.

The thing is there was obvious thought to the armies. In his own account he says why the Germans are dwarves. So why are Italians rats?(which has a negative connotation to it), or why are the polish (I think that's the country) people troglodytes? I think it would have been better off if he had said I picked a country then threw a dart at a board which had the different races on it. Now if they said the Italians were rats because the Italians are world den own for cheese and catacombs (I think I'll patent that name for a game), then it might come off different, but now it just seems like a slap to the face of Italians (I'm only like 1/128th Italian, so I'm not personally offended).

Yes, the Italian/rat thing.

What are Italians known for? When I think of Italy I think of a lot of things, one of them being their history of maritime trade and exploration/conquest. What creature piggy-backed on sailing ships criss-crossing the globe and essentially conquering the world? Rats.

Rats are hardy, resilient creatures that can adapt to varied environments. They are survivors. Sure, there are plenty of negative associations with rats, just like there are with the other "monster" races in Panzerfauste, but Panzerfauste doesn't seem to be playing up the negative stereotypes commonly associated with those races.

If the Italian rats are portrayed like GW's Skaven, living in clustered masses, spreading contagion, and being evil, then sure, I could understand people's feelings getting hurt. But I am not seeing that from Panzerfauste.


The Redwall series of books is beloved, and it used "vermin" for its characters. I don't think anyone was associating the English with disease spreading vermin when reading those books. Is Fievel from American Tail a slap to Jewish culture because he is a mouse? I personally don't think so.



Armand first noted his displeasure with the Italian's being rats and one of his reasons was this:

Armand wrote:
Considering that rat is used as a synonym for betrayer, and that Italy left the Axis for the Allies, well...

Should we really concern ourselves with people sore over Italy leaving the Axis? The Axis powers. Mussolini. Fascism. If anything, being called a rat for leaving the Axis should be a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of.

Don't misconstrue what I am saying, I am not accusing Armand of being an Axis sympathizer, rather that if that is his concern, does it really merit much consideration? Does anyone really think of Italians as rats for leaving the Axis?

I think the outrage is overblown, especially when there are plenty of other forms of anthropomorphic characters who exhibit cultural traits of real groups that are loved and accepted.

But, these are just like my opinions, man. Take them or leave them.

 Guildsman wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!

Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.

And why one person being excited out rules more people who are offended....oh wait he's a distributor....with money in hand. Besides I've never seen a distributor make a wrong call on a product and get caught with a product that winds up being a dud. But that is what miniature market is for, buying out those failed businesses and selling their stock cheap over the next 5 or more years.

 Guildsman wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!

Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.

Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.

You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.

Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!

Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.

Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.

You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.

Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?

I just think that it's a strange choice to make a clearly WWII-inspired game, to the point of saying "the Germans are dwarves, the Russians are dark elves, etc." and then saying "oh, yeah, in this explicitly WWII-inspired game, the German analogues aren't anything like Nazis." That'd be like making an American Civil War-inspired game and saying "Oh, yeah, in this explicitly ACW-inspired game, the Confederate analogues don't own slaves." To me, it just rings false.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.

You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.

Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?

Of course there are actual WW2 German minis/models made without swastikas and other Nazi iconography. If you want to sell them in Germany including even historically correct markings will get your product banned. Smart producers don't put themselves into that position.

To claim a side is 'Dwarves as WW2 Germans' would tend to have a VERY strong implication they could be considered Nazi dwarves, as we all know, the Germans forces in WW2 were Nazis or at least fighting for the Nazi cause (when not actual party members). Kind of hard to divorce the two from each other.

 Guildsman wrote:
I just think that it's a strange choice to make a clearly WWII-inspired game, to the point of saying "the Germans are dwarves, the Russians are dark elves, etc." and then saying "oh, yeah, in this explicitly WWII-inspired game, the German analogues aren't anything like Nazis." That'd be like making an American Civil War-inspired game and saying "Oh, yeah, in this explicitly ACW-inspired game, the Confederate analogues don't own slaves." To me, it just rings false.

I understand where you are coming from, but without knowing the background of Panzerfauste, I am not ready to label the German Dwarves Nazis. I'd want to know more about the fictional society they are representing before making that connection.

Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?

 CptJake wrote:


Of course there are actual WW2 German minis/models made without swastikas and other Nazi iconography. If you want to sell them in Germany including even historically correct markings will get your product banned. Smart producers don't put themselves into that position.

To claim a side is 'Dwarves as WW2 Germans' would tend to have a VERY strong implication they could be considered Nazi dwarves, as we all know, the Germans forces in WW2 were Nazis or at least fighting for the Nazi cause (when not actual party members). Kind of hard to divorce the two from each other.

Same as above, I understand the implication, but WWII German elements are well established features for a lot of miniature ranges and factions across multiple games. If the Panzerfauste Dwarves don't hold to Nazi ideologies and don't exhibit Nazi iconography are they Nazis? Or are they just Dwarves with machinenpistoles?

And Nazi Dwarves riding pigs has been unlocked . I want to love this so much.....but still too many issues.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?

Ooh! I actually know this too! In the Dystopian Wars/Legions background, the U.S. abolishes slavery in the 1820s, huge deposits of unobtainium (I forget the actual name) are discovered, and the Civil War is fought over mineral rights. And yes, that also made me uncomfortable.

 Guildsman wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?

Ooh! I actually know this too! In the Dystopian Wars/Legions background, the U.S. abolishes slavery in the 1820s, huge deposits of unobtainium (I forget the actual name) are discovered, and the Civil War is fought over mineral rights. And yes, that also made me uncomfortable.

Awesome, I wasn't familiar with Dystopian Legions' background. Thanks for the info.

That is kinda what I am hoping goes down for Panzerfauste in terms of the Dwarves fluff. As long as they aren't eradicating another race within the game and espousing Nazi-ideologies then I can deal with them.