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I should also point out that if folks are offended, that is perfectly fine. It's not my job, nor do I think its my job to say you are WRONG. I would just like to offer arguments as to why the decision has been made.

However, none of our actions have been made with offensive intent in mind. We'd rather no one was offended (or maybe everyone!), but that's not going to be possible.

Here's what Steve had to say about it; my advice, take it or leave it.

It has been great to see the interest generated in the posts about Hysterical's Panzerfäuste project on a variety of internet platforms. However, I am concerned by a minority of comments which are somewhat erroneous and need correcting.
First off it is worth noting that Panzerfäuste is not a new game. It first saw the light of day at the end of the nineties as a small press production with a small range of supporting white metal miniatures. This is important to note as in the near two decades the original game has been in production NO ONE has ever expressed offence or concern at the game or its background (and the game has been bought by serving soldiers and veterans).
Secondly it is not a WW2 game with fantasy races. The background to the game draws on more than just WW2 for its inspiration and if you check out the miniatures released by Wessex Games, you will see that there are WW1 inspired Sturmtruppen sitting alongside WW2 inspired Commandos. This is important to note when an uninformed minority start tossing around words like “Nazi” There are no Nazis in Panzerfäuste and never will be. The Dwarves in Panzerfäuste are Imperial not National Socialist and they are led by a Kaiser not a Führer.
One individual has made a point that it is offensive that the "British" are portrayed as “Evil” Orcs and the “Good” Dwarves are "Nazi Germans". Now I am going to assume that this individual has not bought the original game and is making a whole raft of presuppositions about the background that are totally incorrect.
I'm not quite sure why the person in question has decided that Orcs are automatically Evil. Yes in the old days of D&D and first edition Warhammer, Orcs were “alignment Evil”. However this view has changed over the decades and I prefer the more revisionist approach to Orcs based on books like Mary Gentle's excellent Grunts and Stan Nicholls Orcs series. Both authors treat their Orcs as poor bloody infantry doing what they are told by the man in charge. They are not inherently evil, just employed by someone who is.
So why are our Orcs "British"? Well it is easier to answer why our Dwarves are "German". Dwarves come from Nordic and Germanic myth and one of the great pieces of Germanic myth is the Nibelungenlied, which features an Evil Dwarf called Alberich (not all Dwarves are “Good”). Couple this with beards and fancy moustaches, a love of mountains and a propensity to hold a grudge over lost lands, well to me that sounds more German than British.
So with "German" Dwarves decided upon (led in Panzerfäuste by the nasty Kaiser Alberich), who were the "British" going to be?
Having previously worked on Flintloque for three years, where, inspired by Wellington's quote that his infantry were “the scum of the earth”, the Orcs were “British” it never really occurred to me to have them as anything else. As a traditional enemy of the Dwarves, it made sense and this view was probably subconsciously reinforced by GW’s ‘Ere We Go! “football hooligan” orcs, models like the 40k's Ork Kommandos and Mary Gentle’s excellent book that smashes fantasy stereotypes.
Like the vast majority, I (along with the rest of the Hysterical Games team) also “personally detest fascism”. As anyone who knows me will attest I have marched against fascists and I have a zero tolerance policy to people who share memes from extreme right wing organizations on social media. I also have family members who died in defence of this country. I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.
Once again I would like to thank the whole internet community for their support as well as all the positive vibes and messages from the gaming community about the rebirth of Panzerfäuste.
Steve Blease

I was hoping for more discussion on all the race choices as a whole but I guess it's an interesting start.

He likes Grunts by Mary Gentle.... he must be right......

(the book also does a good job as re-examining hobbits too....)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: and 'magic' weapons.....

@Zond: I am sure I could quiz Steve for you and try to get back to you?

I'm the same, designer notes fill me with joy.

 rob_alderman wrote:
I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.

That section from Steve Blease seems... a bit needlessly combative (probably better to ignore it if he thinks someone was trolling him, right?).

The representations do seem a little odd and a bit of a "stretch" at times, so that's not an isolated opinion (although it looks like it was probably stated in a way to wind him up). But the dwarves as germans is actually one of the cooler / better fits, imo!

 rob_alderman wrote:

Spoiler:

I should also point out that if folks are offended, that is perfectly fine. It's not my job, nor do I think its my job to say you are WRONG. I would just like to offer arguments as to why the decision has been made.

However, none of our actions have been made with offensive intent in mind. We'd rather no one was offended (or maybe everyone!), but that's not going to be possible.

Here's what Steve had to say about it; my advice, take it or leave it.

It has been great to see the interest generated in the posts about Hysterical's Panzerfäuste project on a variety of internet platforms. However, I am concerned by a minority of comments which are somewhat erroneous and need correcting.
First off it is worth noting that Panzerfäuste is not a new game. It first saw the light of day at the end of the nineties as a small press production with a small range of supporting white metal miniatures. This is important to note as in the near two decades the original game has been in production NO ONE has ever expressed offence or concern at the game or its background (and the game has been bought by serving soldiers and veterans).
Secondly it is not a WW2 game with fantasy races. The background to the game draws on more than just WW2 for its inspiration and if you check out the miniatures released by Wessex Games, you will see that there are WW1 inspired Sturmtruppen sitting alongside WW2 inspired Commandos. This is important to note when an uninformed minority start tossing around words like “Nazi” There are no Nazis in Panzerfäuste and never will be. The Dwarves in Panzerfäuste are Imperial not National Socialist and they are led by a Kaiser not a Führer.
One individual has made a point that it is offensive that the "British" are portrayed as “Evil” Orcs and the “Good” Dwarves are "Nazi Germans". Now I am going to assume that this individual has not bought the original game and is making a whole raft of presuppositions about the background that are totally incorrect.
I'm not quite sure why the person in question has decided that Orcs are automatically Evil. Yes in the old days of D&D and first edition Warhammer, Orcs were “alignment Evil”. However this view has changed over the decades and I prefer the more revisionist approach to Orcs based on books like Mary Gentle's excellent Grunts and Stan Nicholls Orcs series. Both authors treat their Orcs as poor bloody infantry doing what they are told by the man in charge. They are not inherently evil, just employed by someone who is.
So why are our Orcs "British"? Well it is easier to answer why our Dwarves are "German". Dwarves come from Nordic and Germanic myth and one of the great pieces of Germanic myth is the Nibelungenlied, which features an Evil Dwarf called Alberich (not all Dwarves are “Good”). Couple this with beards and fancy moustaches, a love of mountains and a propensity to hold a grudge over lost lands, well to me that sounds more German than British.
So with "German" Dwarves decided upon (led in Panzerfäuste by the nasty Kaiser Alberich), who were the "British" going to be?
Having previously worked on Flintloque for three years, where, inspired by Wellington's quote that his infantry were “the scum of the earth”, the Orcs were “British” it never really occurred to me to have them as anything else. As a traditional enemy of the Dwarves, it made sense and this view was probably subconsciously reinforced by GW’s ‘Ere We Go! “football hooligan” orcs, models like the 40k's Ork Kommandos and Mary Gentle’s excellent book that smashes fantasy stereotypes.
Like the vast majority, I (along with the rest of the Hysterical Games team) also “personally detest fascism”. As anyone who knows me will attest I have marched against fascists and I have a zero tolerance policy to people who share memes from extreme right wing organizations on social media. I also have family members who died in defence of this country. I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.
Once again I would like to thank the whole internet community for their support as well as all the positive vibes and messages from the gaming community about the rebirth of Panzerfäuste.
Steve Blease

No one's accusing anyone of condoning fascism, jeez. But there are elements of this game so far that are going to make some people uncomfortable, myself included. Obviously, I'm not the target audience for this game.

Also, you can claim any and every influence you like, but if your dwarves are stomping around with stahlhelms and sturmgewehrs, many/most people are going to immediately think "Nazi dwarves."

Are you guys seriously offended that there's WWII styled Germans in this game? Some of you are really giving off that vibe. Where were you when Tannhauzer had WWII looking Germans (who weren't Nazis btw) or when Dust made Weird War Germans? Where were the people claiming offense when Zombiesmith made an army of German pigmen? Seriously guys, what the hell are you getting so bent out of shape about? It's a fething game. You act like the designers punched you in the face and insulted your mom or something

I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.

Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.

BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.

Oh for feths sake guys!

I like german ww2 tanks.... I like their weaponry and uniforms.... does that make me a nazi sympathiser? No of course not!

Germany + Dwarfs makes sense....

Tbh I would of prefered the orks to of been french (old outdate equipment etc) but then again gnomes fit them better!

Ratmen would always be an issue seeing their reputation!

I think Japan would be incredibly troublesome, more so than choosing the germans, maybe lizardmen? Avian creature and Reptiles are often honour based in fantasy settings after all?

 CptJake wrote:
I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.

Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.

BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.

Thank you! Someone understands. "And these are the German analogues. What?! Nazis?! How dare you conflate the explicitly German faction of our WW2-based game with Nazis!!!"

talk about bent out of shape

I find it amusing that all the games that this is being compare to are ones I never bothered to look at unless it was on clearance at miniaturemarket. Seriously the games being compared to are small time ones that couldn't get enough support and are on their second or third attempts, or they DO have a nazi faction in them which brings the historians into the game to fight alternate battles.

Wow if nazi dwarfs gets you upset then this really gets your knickers in a twist
http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=126_207_211


Dust tactics germans

For the umpteenth time, it's not that they're Nazis. It's that in a fantasy WWII game, based heavily on historical events, the dwarves have the aesthetic without the historical connotations. You don't get to cherry pick the clearly recognizable outfits of Nazis and then turn around and say, "oh, these guys don't do that bad stuff. How could you say that?" The DUST characters are explicitly Nazis, and are treated as the bad guys. Like they should be.

The ratmen I don't think should really be an issue. They're not GW style plague-ridden, malformed monstrosities. The Panzerfauste Italians actually look fairly normal.

For your viewing pleasure, this is what the original ones looked like.



They're just anthropomorphic rats in fatigues. Nothing to get so bent out of shape over.

So, Guildsman, your issue is that they look like Nazis, but they aren't? So, you should have that same problem with Tannhauser, Dust, and the Steel Legion then.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear that in Dust's fulff, Hitler and the overall Nazi regime had actually been overthrown. That's why there's not SS units in the game.

 Guildsman wrote:
For the umpteenth time, it's not that they're Nazis. It's that in a fantasy WWII game, based heavily on historical events, the dwarves have the aesthetic without the historical connotations. You don't get to cherry pick the clearly recognizable outfits of Nazis and then turn around and say, "oh, these guys don't do that bad stuff. How could you say that?" The DUST characters are explicitly Nazis, and are treated as the bad guys. Like they should be.

Then don't back it if you have moral qualms about it.

 Guildsman wrote:

Also, you can claim any and every influence you like, but if your dwarves are stomping around with stahlhelms and sturmgewehrs, many/most people are going to immediately think "Nazi dwarves."

I thought 'German Dwarves' which seems to have been the majority reaction. I never even considered any possible link with nazism before this thread.

If you don't like it then don't back it; there is very little difference between this and the various 'Weird War 2' games out there and considering that this is a fantasy game with Dwarves led by a Kaiser Imperial Germany would be a better comparison. Some troops that look far more like WWI Sturmtruppen than WW2 Schutzen, not to mention the cavalry riding pigs...

If you feel uncomfortable wargaming Nazis then fine, don't. Given that Germany is the most popular WW2 wargaming army there is little evidence that this decision will have been an economically bad one. There is also the very real point that individual WW2 era Germans were in the balance of probability not actually Nazis.

I am utterly amazed that this topic even came up.

 rob_alderman wrote:
@Zond: I am sure I could quiz Steve for you and try to get back to you?

I'm the same, designer notes fill me with joy.

Yeah it would be interesting to know more about the thought processes behind the racial design choices and how than influenced the gaming world or vice versa. I'm currently not a backer as I'm a bit uncomfortable with some concepts, so it's cheeky for me to ask, but as you say designer notes fill everyone with joy. ☺

I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.

I don't mind the dwarves at all - what got me was the creator's reaction (quoted above). Maybe some people were being rude elsewhere, but this is an international forum and people were polite with their criticism. When an Italian poster says he's offended how his country is represented, it's at least worth listening to that poster. Acting as if there is nothing at all that toes the line in the game would be ignoring posts like that, and that's what bothered me.

Having an intelligent discussion about it is worthwhile and certainly nothing wrong with it on either side! Like I said, the dwarves look like one of the best fits and don't bother me at all. The original one that gave me pause was actually troglodytes as polish, before the rats were shown. I think I would describe some of it as just clumsily done... the reasoning behind the representations seems a bit tenuous, so it's hard for me to get immersed in it. Again, this is unlike the dwarves, which for me make perfect sense.

If they were going for something that would push the limits a bit, they succeeded

The "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument is the last refuge of modern self-identified "consumers", people for whom buying things and not buying things are literally the only way they can influence the world. They abhor anything they consider as making a political statement, without for a moment realizing that that too is a political statement. Wilful blindness is abysmal and distasteful to behold.

 Theophony wrote:
I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.

Sure, to an extent, but the "feedback" that you and others have given wasn't particularly helpful. You in particular have continued to call the German Dwarves Nazis even when other posters have pointed out that they are in fact not Nazis. Your "side" of the argument doesn't seem intent to try and change the game for the better, rather than just sharing how uncomfortable you all are with some of the concepts.

I personally gave a suggestion for why the Italians are rat men and you ignored it. So pardon me if I don't take your claims of offering constructive criticism seriously since you don't want to even have a conversation about why rat men were chosen for Italy.

And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments. Instead that side is focusing on the "rats = diseased vermin" trope without looking at other interpretations of rats for possible reasoning as to why they were chosen for Italy.

All I am seeing from the critics of this game are their existing biases towards history, towards "monster" races from other games and they are letting those biases inform their decisions about Panzerfauste without even allowing alternatives to be considered.

Which leads to the chorus of "if you don't like it don't buy it!"

You guys aren't offering anything up to change. You are simply stating that things make you uncomfortable about the game while ignoring or discounting counter-arguments made to mitigate your discomfort. Fine. Don't buy in then. What else can be said to appease your discomfort?




But if you are serious about having a conversation let's reset then. I get you are uncomfortable by the rat men. But if the rat men aren't portrayed like Skaven. If they don't behave like a nest of plague filled vermin, but are simply rat people much like the Red Wall creatures were rat and mice people, what is the problem?

Are rats,in your opinion, so monstrous that they cannot be explored as a sympathetic race in a fantasy setting?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments.

Now, I wasn't planning to reply again to this topic, as I have already said my piece, and lost any interest in the project; but since you keep implying things about me without knowing them, let me make something clear:

no, I'm absolutely not a supporter of the Axis ideology. In fact, some of my parents' relatives (civilians) were killed by "rogue" German soldiers that were escaping the country, just because they were part of the (in their opinion) "traitor people".

Not that I care what you think, mind you, it's just to show the others reading my side of the story.

Sorry for the OT, stopping replying now.

 CptJake wrote:
I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.

Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.

BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.

I actually totally agree with you! You've made a good point.

Sorry, Steve's update is taken out of context. Someone did call us Nazi sympathisers, just because the Orcs (traditionally evil) were British and Dwarves (traditionally good) were 'Nazis'.

Armand wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments.

Now, I wasn't planning to reply again to this topic, as I have already said my piece, and lost any interest in the project; but since you keep implying things about me without knowing them, let me make something clear:

no, I'm absolutely not a supporter of the Axis ideology. In fact, some of my parents' relatives (civilians) were killed by "rogue" German soldiers that were escaping the country, just because they were part of the (in their opinion) "traitor people".

Not that I care what you think, mind you, it's just to show the others reading my side of the story.

Sorry for the OT, stopping replying now.

I have gone out of my way to state that I don't think you are an Axis sympathizer, but that the criticism you leveled at the rat figures would only be made by Axis sympathizers. So do you have any other reason to not like rats as Italians? Because you brought up the connotation of rats being a metaphor for Axis traitors which is something most people wouldn't think of.

How to get funded on Kickstarter:

1:Good / decent WW1/WW2 orc miniatures.

Optional: Anything else.

That said I'll almost surely unable to resist going in for something, as I'm a sucker for orcs in uniforms. Before I though I am curious, does anyone have any scale shots of how the orcs / not-goblins will look next to the standard GW variety? Scale and such of bodies, weapons, height, ect?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.

Sure, to an extent, but the "feedback" that you and others have given wasn't particularly helpful. You in particular have continued to call the German Dwarves Nazis even when other posters have pointed out that they are in fact not Nazis. Your "side" of the argument doesn't seem intent to try and change the game for the better, rather than just sharing how uncomfortable you all are with some of the concepts.

I personally gave a suggestion for why the Italians are rat men and you ignored it. So pardon me if I don't take your claims of offering constructive criticism seriously since you don't want to even have a conversation about why rat men were chosen for Italy.

And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments. Instead that side is focusing on the "rats = diseased vermin" trope without looking at other interpretations of rats for possible reasoning as to why they were chosen for Italy.

All I am seeing from the critics of this game are their existing biases towards history, towards "monster" races from other games and they are letting those biases inform their decisions about Panzerfauste without even allowing alternatives to be considered.

Which leads to the chorus of "if you don't like it don't buy it!"

You guys aren't offering anything up to change. You are simply stating that things make you uncomfortable about the game while ignoring or discounting counter-arguments made to mitigate your discomfort. Fine. Don't buy in then. What else can be said to appease your discomfort?




But if you are serious about having a conversation let's reset then. I get you are uncomfortable by the rat men. But if the rat men aren't portrayed like Skaven. If they don't behave like a nest of plague filled vermin, but are simply rat people much like the Red Wall creatures were rat and mice people, what is the problem?

Are rats,in your opinion, so monstrous that they cannot be explored as a sympathetic race in a fantasy setting?

I think you need to go back and filter the thread for my replies as the two times I mentioned Nazis were
1. I called them Nazi pig riders (okay, German troops during the nazi reign, which these models are clearly based off of), my fault there for not clarifying enough.
2. When I was discussing other game systems I mentioned that those games had nazi factions.

They are making a game with very WWII stylized art and concept, but the. Are picking and choosing when they want us to take things as literally and when to take them lighthearted. They came up with a reason for dwarves that was decent, but the reason for rats was "black shirts/black rats" as if there wasn't a hundred other points of Italian history to pick from. Other options have been suggested and you have tried to shoe horn in an alternate idea for the rats (which if that had been their response I would have been good with it). The problem I see is they took a bad time in history and chose a very distinct point that is tender to a country's ego and they accentuated it while at the same time took a bad part of German history and are trying to gloss over it. Italy has soooooooo much history to it that could have been used instead, but their choice has obviously struck a few chords.

As far as offering up anything for change I suggested werewolves, and others have suggested satyrs for Italians, both drawing on Italian history and legends, and those were ignored. To me rats or ratmen are not "monsters" I only have experience with ratmen from skaven, everything else like redwall is just anthropomorphic cartoons or stories. Are there legends (hansel and gretel type tales with ratmen? Besides the rat king from the nutcracker) where there are ratmen? Otherwise we have monsters for every country except Italy. So it's Mickey Mouse versus dwarves (not the Snow White type either), troglodytes, Ents, Elves and Dark Elves. The elves thing in itself seems like a political statement as well as you have the "good" light elves (Americans) and the "evil" dark elves (Soviets), was there such a lack of monster choices that we had to go to that trope again.

Maybe it's this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratman

The main reason I see them not changing the rats is because that's what they were in first edition. I posted pics of the old Italian ratmen earlier. They're not a particularly negative portrayal. They just wound up looking a bit more like furries. I agree with you that wolves (or birdmen) would've worked better due to the presence of those animals in traditional Roman and Italian iconography. However, the fluff's bern established for about 20 years that Italians are rat men. I agree that the reasoning probably amounted to "hey, wouldn't this be cool?" But why change it now after being established for so long?

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
We have several of those books as well, they're well worth it just for the illustrations alone.

What books are those? I'd love to pick up some for my daughter (and me really).

I would start with this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O2RSBS?keywords=gnomes&qid=1445278174&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

I got it as a gift from my grandparents as a child and my kids enjoy now too.

Cool, thanks guys!

 Theophony wrote:

They are making a game with very WWII stylized art and concept,

Full stop. Styled after, not actually WWII. That is important and I think a detail that gets glossed over by some people offended by this game. This isn't WWII directly. The factions may take cues from the cultures and armies that participated in WWII but that doesn't mean they are EXACTLY the same as their real-world counterparts.

 Theophony wrote:
but the. Are picking and choosing when they want us to take things as literally and when to take them lighthearted. They came up with a reason for dwarves that was decent, but the reason for rats was "black shirts/black rats" as if there wasn't a hundred other points of Italian history to pick from.

I am sure more thought went into the Italian rats than the comedic comment made by rob.

Here is his quote directly.

 rob_alderman wrote:
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?

I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...

Come on, Black Shirts - Black Rats... Easy!

Surely you don't think that is ALL the thought that went into the Italian faction.

Should some actual follow up have been provided by rob about reasoning behind the use of rats as Italians? Most certainly, but I can't take that comment of his seriously as the real and only reason that Italians became rats in Panzerfauste.

 Theophony wrote:
Other options have been suggested and you have tried to shoe horn in an alternate idea for the rats (which if that had been their response I would have been good with it). The problem I see is they took a bad time in history and chose a very distinct point that is tender to a country's ego and they accentuated it while at the same time took a bad part of German history and are trying to gloss over it. Italy has soooooooo much history to it that could have been used instead, but their choice has obviously struck a few chords.

I bolded the part I agree with you on. I do think egos are being bruised, but I think that is willful on the part of the offended. My honest opinion of a lot of the outrage over this game is that people are looking for things to pick apart. Maybe its the Prodos connection? Maybe it was a boring week and people have nothing else to focus on, but the issues people have with Panzerfauste, that they don't seem to have with other games doing similar things as Panzerfauste, makes it hard for me to come up with any other conclusion than people want to be butt-hurt about this game setting.

Why isn't 40k a problem for introducing real-world cultural elements or cliches to their armies? Or the other games that have been mentioned (which you discounted because they were small press or had limited market presence) which do many of the things Panzerfauste wants to do without the criticism Panzerfauste is receiving.

 Theophony wrote:
As far as offering up anything for change I suggested werewolves, and others have suggested satyrs for Italians, both drawing on Italian history and legends, and those were ignored.

Likely because the factions are in place from the 90's version of the game, and are already being developed into models. It would be hard to completely change a faction's make up at this stage of the development process. What I find interesting is the relative lack of interest by certain people to give any nuance to the setting or factions. Certainly there is a lot to mine in the game (and the game creators certainly could do a better job of sharing some of that information) but some people seem to be taking a very literal and very limited view of the game based off of their own preconceived notions of fantasy races.

 Theophony wrote:
To me rats or ratmen are not "monsters" I only have experience with ratmen from skaven, everything else like redwall is just anthropomorphic cartoons or stories. Are there legends (hansel and gretel type tales with ratmen? Besides the rat king from the nutcracker) where there are ratmen? Otherwise we have monsters for every country except Italy. So it's Mickey Mouse versus dwarves (not the Snow White type either), troglodytes, Ents, Elves and Dark Elves. The elves thing in itself seems like a political statement as well as you have the "good" light elves (Americans) and the "evil" dark elves (Soviets), was there such a lack of monster choices that we had to go to that trope again.

All assumptions on your part. Not every race revealed is a monstrous race (elves, gnomes). And the Light/Dark elf metaphor can easily represent the two super powers during the cold war. Again, the game isn't exactly WWII, so anacronistic elements like cold-war era themes can be present without it causing a problem. I can see why they went in that direction for USA/Russia. Two highly advanced civilizations that have two diametrically opposed ideologies. Seems like a good fit to me.