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Ok, I want to preface this by stating that by and in large, I dislike it when people say "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" as a method to shut down discussion. It is pretty much always a dodge.

That said, this might be one of the few cases where it actually is properly applied. Group A says "This offends me". Group B says " I don't think it is offensive." Group A replies "It is offensive because of X, Y and Z." Group B replies "It should not be offensive because of A, B and C." This repeats.

The question then is, so what?
If Group A is correct, so what? Should the features be changed? Hard to say without knowing how important they are to the project, and how the rest of the market will react. Projects are pretty much guaranteed to offend someone, somewhere, and making them less offensive can turn off other people who like things more "real" or "edgy" or whatever.
If Group B is correct, so what? Should Group A change their feels? Can they? I am all for people being more dignified and stoic, but offense is sometimes the proper response, and stating that offense has been taken is good social information. Then again, stating that offense is considered inappropriate, thin skinned or whatever, is also good social information. In either case, it seems unlikely that Group A will change either their opinion or their spending decision based on arguments from Group B, and the game producer has the same information problem in reacting to Group B as he does from reacting to Group A.

So maybe the thing to do really is to just say "I do/don't like this project for the following reasons, and will/won't be backing/purchasing" and then being quiet about it. There is no point arguing as though your offense gives you special status, or as though someone's offense is inappropriate and can be removed by virtue of considered argument. Some debates just are not worth having.

Now, if we were talking about trigger discipline on the model, or holding a bow and arrow properly, that would be a different story!

I think that's definitely fair, Wehrkind. Like I said earlier, some of the representations just seem a bit clumsy.

I do like the death (deathless?) elf models, and the dwarves - rule of cool, as always, applies!

It's also impotant to realise it's a re-issue of an exiting game and while some tinkering with it for modern gaming styles is understandable wholesale changes of some of the factions is never going to go down well

imagine GW decides to re-release Mordheim after a bit of (functional) rules tinkering... Happy Happy, Joy Joy,

but no, the humans no longer fit as the empire got blown up, so GW have decided to replace them with kangaroos, not so much happiness, old customers (ok probably not so many for Panzerfaust) and the old game designers (really important for Panzerfaust, not so much for Mordheim as they don't own the IP) get grumpy and don't want to be involved

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
but no, the humans no longer fit as the empire got blown up, so GW have decided to replace them with kangaroos, not so much happiness, old customers (ok probably not so many for Panzerfaust) and the old game designers (really important for Panzerfaust, not so much for Mordheim as they don't own the IP) get grumpy and don't want to be involved

So it's because the game designers are partial to the original representations, right? Because there wasn't much of a following of this game previously, and there's certainly not the fluff / background for the various races that Mordheim (basically part of WHFB) had.

I would imagine so,

if you've put the time and effort into something to keep it (sort of) alive for a decade (there have been occasional sporadic mini releases as his funds have allowed) rather than dumping it when it didn't take off big time you clearly like and value what you've created

You say that, but there is some fluff and I know Steve is very keen on most of it.

Some changes have taken place, but nothing drastic.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Ok, I want to preface this by stating that by and in large, I dislike it when people say "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" as a method to shut down discussion. It is pretty much always a dodge.

That said, this might be one of the few cases where it actually is properly applied. Group A says "This offends me". Group B says " I don't think it is offensive." Group A replies "It is offensive because of X, Y and Z." Group B replies "It should not be offensive because of A, B and C." This repeats.

The question then is, so what?
If Group A is correct, so what? Should the features be changed? Hard to say without knowing how important they are to the project, and how the rest of the market will react. Projects are pretty much guaranteed to offend someone, somewhere, and making them less offensive can turn off other people who like things more "real" or "edgy" or whatever.
If Group B is correct, so what? Should Group A change their feels? Can they? I am all for people being more dignified and stoic, but offense is sometimes the proper response, and stating that offense has been taken is good social information. Then again, stating that offense is considered inappropriate, thin skinned or whatever, is also good social information. In either case, it seems unlikely that Group A will change either their opinion or their spending decision based on arguments from Group B, and the game producer has the same information problem in reacting to Group B as he does from reacting to Group A.

So maybe the thing to do really is to just say "I do/don't like this project for the following reasons, and will/won't be backing/purchasing" and then being quiet about it. There is no point arguing as though your offense gives you special status, or as though someone's offense is inappropriate and can be removed by virtue of considered argument. Some debates just are not worth having.

Now, if we were talking about trigger discipline on the model, or holding a bow and arrow properly, that would be a different story!

I was at the forget this game phase already from the comments so I'll take my opinions elsewhere. Ask said before I really wanted to like this game.

The Deathless have been unlocked.

Love those zombies - has me looking forward to the Russians/dark elves proper.

Must say the sculpting has been impressive all round

Same here - and it also has me looking forward to the Americans/light elves proper!

I was on the fence, but the Dark and (I hope!) Light Elves might push me over...

Interesting designs. I'm hoping for a similar vicious quality from the full Dark Elf Russian and Light Elf American factions.

I'm hoping for designer notes still. I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.

Those models look really good! There are a ton of molds to make for each faction, though - the number of variant models / poses unlocked is really high!

Zond wrote:
I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.

The Dwarves, Trogs and Gnomes have had a design analysis article on the KS page. I'm sure that the other factions will as well.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Zond wrote:
I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.

The Dwarves, Trogs and Gnomes have had a design analysis article on the KS page. I'm sure that the other factions will as well.

I've read them. Not exactly what I'm looking for, more along the small paragraph explaining why each race is representative of particular WW1/WW2 mashed forces like the Dwarf example. Maybe more on the world and background as I'm assuming it has been updated.

These are neat models, and I like the Fantasy-meets-WWII mashup. I was a bit leery of the Dwarves at first, but I'm satisfied that they're just imperialists in Hugo Boss uniforms and also definitely the antagonists (another plus; I've always liked evil dwarves even though they seem to be relatively uncommon, even though if you really think about it, the stereotypical Dwarven grumpy superiority and isolationism could easily fester into arrogance and xenophobia and that could be an interesting avenue to explore in a "bad guy" dwarf faction).

I'm a bit leery over the Polish being Troglodytes since it makes me think of all those terrible (and patently untrue) unflattering legends the Nazis spread about the Polish Army that a lot of people still believe today, but I can look past it.

Also hell friggin' yeah, Gnomes!

Cool to see that this got funded, might check it out when it's available at retail.

Ehhh you know what this needs to really hit the WW2 vibe. Armour and Aircraft for me fantasy WW2 needs fantasy vehicles the troops are great but until the Dwarfen panzers start rolling I won't be fully sold!

 Llamahead wrote:
Ehhh you know what this needs to really hit the WW2 vibe. Armour and Aircraft for me fantasy WW2 needs fantasy vehicles the troops are great but until the Dwarfen panzers start rolling I won't be fully sold!

THe dwarves have Pigzers not Panzers
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hystericalgames/panzerfauste-mechanised-warfare-in-a-mythical-real/posts/1388833

 Theophony wrote:

THe dwarves have Pigzers not Panzers
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hystericalgames/panzerfauste-mechanised-warfare-in-a-mythical-real/posts/1388833

Wow... (should be Schweinehundreiter though).

For those who don't know: the term is an insult (who'd have thought?) but mostly used in the phrase 'overcoming your inner Schweinehund' - to finally do something (usually necessary or reasonable) despite your own laziness or displeasure (you know... cleaning the house, doing sports, tax declaration, using mounts as a dwarf ...)

Yeah, I know the German is wrong. I have very basic German language skills, was convinced it was right, checked it and realised I had got it wrong when it was too late!

Will be edited in the printed rulebook of course.

And yes, that was the intention. It's quite commonly known that 'Schweinhund' is a common expression of distaste to someone - a lot of British War Comics, films, etc, use that phrase quite frequently!

We will have Panzerkriegtiere, eventually.

Could of mini-stretches, to help things along.

We now have Patrick Keith, of Bombshell Miniatures in support. He's kindly agreed to sculpt two figures for us, the first of which is Bogglez-Wurf, the Orc!



All pledgers of Sergeant or above get this guy for free!

We've also said that if we get 200 Backers, all backers of Captain or above will get a free hero of their choice.



Oh and we redesigned our templates, which will probably be cut by Mr Steve 'Pezzapoo' Perry, of Chilling Wargamers fame!

Update #41 ℹ


Nov 3 2015

Stamp. Stamp. Stamp... ROOOOOAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!

...

Can we just say, that you are the most humbling bunch of folk that we have ever had the pleasure of doing business with? Genuinely, the most heartfelt of thank you's go out to you all and we know that we say it a lot, but this time we pretty much got reduced to tears with gratitude and just had to say it again.

One of our backers (who wishes to remain anonymous, due to 'The Wife's Wrath') has, incredibly kindly, offered to help fund the creation of the Orc War Wyrm. This magnificent beast is available NOW as an add on, and thanks to this gentleman's help, will be a part of our very first wave of shipments.

"Lieutenant Eûn-hil slapped Bȅv-urlii on the flank as he walked around her. Here was a mount an Orc could be proud of he mused as he checked the feedbox was secured to the superstructure. “Soon gurl” he grunted as he checked the steering chains.

Pausing before he mounted his beast, he looked across the burning wheat fields and mushroom farms of Dûn-Nomin to where the advancing Dwarf army was. He clambered up the glacis plate and into the body. “Stupid bloody turret” he grumbled as he squeezed his bulk into the confined hull, “I’d like to stuff the boffin who designed it in here!” Cocking the machine gun, he kicked his driver on the shoulder, the order to advance the war-wyrm. Now to give the stunties some of their own medicine…"

So without further ado, I would like to announce the ORC "MATILDA I" WAR-WYRM!



Work in progress render. Scale of Beast, Hull and Turret will be increased by roughly 20%

Okay, so there is some work to do to the model, it will be scaled up a bit, so the Orc has less of a job squeezing into the turret and the commander will be wearing a Beret.



Will's Concept Art

This kit will come with an optional chest on the back full of gribbly offcuts of meat, a second head with a closed mouth, an optional Beast Commander (which can be replaced with a closed hatch).



x1 LARGE Resin miniature! No base supplied, as it will not be required!

We are offering this as an add on for the very special price of £22, please keep in mind that the RRP of this particular figure will be £30 due to it's bulk and size, but as a message of gratitude, we though this is the right price.

Obviously, the kind gent that helped fund it will receive a full Squadron of 3 Beasties...

Thank you all,
Steve and Rob - Hysterical Games

Achtung! Panzerbär!

Hot on the heels of the Orcish War-Wyrm, we are very happy to announce that it's opponent, the Dwarf Panzerbär will be available to buy as an add-on as well, thanks to 'The Anarchy of Anton!' Blog, check it out here!

"Leutnant Evhȃnz took a last swig of schnapps from his hip flask before turning his back on the burning Gnome mushroom farm and walking back to his unit. The meat wagons had at last caught up with his Panzerkriegtiere troop and the bears were busily devouring the fresh meat. The panzertruppen were busy reloading ammunition and checking the armour to see if any repairs needed immediate action. Evhȃnz second in command walked over to him, “Vell Anton, ze war is almost over, ja?” “So it seems mein freund, ve vill be back in Khâllazdûrin for Hogswatchnacht!” A sudden shout stopped the conversation short. A funker was running towards them. “Orcs! Herr Leutnant! Orcs are coming!” “Verdammt!” exclaimed Evhȃnz. “Mount up now!” The Dwarves sprang into action clambering into the armoured hulls. Guns were loaded, hatches sealed, the meat wagons withdrawn. Leutnant Evhȃnz keyed his radio “Panzer-Bären vorwärts!”

...and here he is, available now as an add-on for £22! Keep in mind, the RRP will be £30 and the concept art is very much in progress! It's likely that he will come with 1 bare head and also 1 helmeted head. There will also be 2 turret options.



x1 LARGE Resin miniature! No base supplied, as it will not be required! (ONLY available as an add-on for £22, RRP = £30)

More concept art and 3d renders to follow for this one!

In other news - the First batch of 3D prints have come in from Prodos, they are blooming lovely! I'll be making moulds of these next week, to show you all how it's going. The Commandos are very, very, very nice and the Gnomes are so cute!

Many thanks!

Steve and Rob - Hysterical Games

I love that there's still a shovel and pick on the armor incase the bear gets bogged down...

 Alex C wrote:
I love that there's still a shovel and pick on the armor incase the bear gets bogged down...

Maybe it is a poop shovel. If it is, I don't want to know what the pick is used for.

Where are the 'proper' Light and Dark Elves already?!?

 Alpharius wrote:
Where are the 'proper' Light and Dark Elves already?!?

The Light Elves have the excuse of the US's late entrance into our version of WW2 but the Dark Elves don't even have that.

Dark Elves will be the next campaign! Winter War!

If we were going to do Dark Elves now, we'd also have to do the Ogres, the Ratmen and the Vuoritroll (Mountain Trolls). We think they deserve their own big project.

Light Elves, genuinely, I am more excited for than most, but again, we think we could only do them justice in another campaign setting.

You can have Zombi Dark Elves though?

I have to say, this project has had ups and downs, but so far its been awesome. I can't wait to start casting the models. There will be a video today showing the first prints that Prodos has sent me. I'm expecting some parts from another printer too AND I have some physical sculpts from a few friends of mine.

The community has pulled together like heck on this one and it's GREAT!

Panzerbär Marsch!

We've just received some new concept art from Will of the Panzerbär and I couldn't resist showing it off.

The design is still a work in progress so will be tweaked and I don't know whether we'll be doing the cute little herder guy, but I thought you would all like to see it...



Panzerbär concept sketch

Will has also provide a concept drawing of the Gnome light snail tank. This isn't in the current (revealed) Stretch Goals <cough> £32,500 </cough> but as Rob is on his way to Arnhem I thought it wasn't a stretch goal too far (!) to show you all...


Gnome Light Snail Tank

Now this will probably be a lot smaller than the Panzerbär and Matilda War-Wyrm so I'm not sure whether we will do two to a set or at a lower price at the moment, but I will make an executive decision if it looks likely we'll get the funds to release it.

Ok, we're coming up on the final 48 hours, so let's get ready for the final push to the green fields beyond!

Supreme Overlord Steve



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Update #48 ℹ


Nov 6 2015

The 48 Hour Countdown Begins...

The Kickstarter has entered its last 48 hours!

First off, I know Rob has thanked you all, but I'd just like to take this opportunity, as I sit here on my own in Hysterical Towers, to repeat that thanks. That the weird little game I devised 18 odd years ago has got this level of love and faith from you is truly humbling. Thank you one and all...

Hopefully in the last 48 hours we'll get a roll on and burst through the next few stretch goals and get to the Local Orc Volunteers. With the new Dad's Army film out next year no doubt many of you will want to recreate it on the tabletop Panzerfäuste style!

At long last I managed to get my hands on some of the Orc miniatures today and, well... wow! Even this old grognard was gob smacked at the detail. Hopefully I'll get a chance to slap some paint on them over the weekend.

Anyway, I know some of you have asked for size comparison shots. I have dug out some miniatures from my collection which I hope will show what you needed to see (usual caveat, other companies miniatures used purely for comparison purposes, no challenge to copyright and all the jazz...)

Here he is with some popular fantasy orcs...



Hysterical Orc with Mantic and GW friends...

Here he is about to win a game of Bolt Action...


Hysterical Orc about to chop up a Warlord German...

Ok, let's see where the next two days take us...

Supreme Overlord Steve

That miniature looks great!

I'm only interested in proper Light and Dark Elves, so I'll probably be out until a future KS.

But I am tempted by those dwarves...

Last 4 hours on this one

snail tanks are unlocked, and 3 war machine bundles have popped up