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I think I've got a something re: KDK Summoning & FMCS as it possibly solves the KDK summoning FMC Flight mode Question.

BRB P162
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deepstriking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

"In that turn's Assault phase however, these units cannot charge"

Khorne Daemonkin P111
"Designers Note: When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deepstrike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board."

P110
"The controlling player can choose to expend Blood Tithe points at the start of any of his turns."

BRB P17 "The Start and End of a Turn"
"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

Note the limitation on not being able to move is reliant on them appearing in "In the Movement phase during which they arrive"

Since they arrive *before* the Movement phase as allowed in "The Start and End of a Turn" section and specified that they are immediately summoned in the Designers notes which is prior to the Movement phase; then they may move normally that turn.

However, they are unable to assault as they did arrive that turn.

Sound legit?

As they have movement, they can change flight modes that turn.

The unintended consequence is that KDK summoned units via the Blood Tithe can all move normally the turn that they arrive (however they are still prevented from assaulting.)

Thoughts?

This is a contentious issue.

Long story short, check whatever third party FAQ you're using or check with your opponent before the game.

Some people claim RAW is that the model deep strikes before the movement phase (as swooping), and in its movement phase it can declare which flight mode it wants to be in - though it may not move any further.

Others dispute this claim for various reasons - that applying the RAW so strictly to this situation and not others is inconsistent; that it leads to some situations where the same could/should happen for non-blood tithe reserves but no-one accepts you could play that way; or that the Reserves rules don't actually say exactly when you arrive on the table anyway.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it should not be allowed, and the tournament FAQ set my local scene uses rules that it should not be allowed. But your mileage may vary with your local scene.

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive"

They arrive before the movement phase due to the KDK Blood tithe wording 'immediately' so the movement phase restrictions doesn't apply correct?

You've not brought up anything that hasn't been said in the numerous threads we've had on the matter. See Trasvi's post for what to do if it comes up in a game.

Yah, this one pretty much up to your LGS. In mine you are allowed to switch flight modes since if you don't having to wait 3 turns to charge with your DP/BT means that you either massacre or get massacrated to get the 7/8 BT points and summon it by the start of the 2nd/3rd turn so that it can actually get into play (CC) by turn 4th/5th.

Seems pretty stupid if that is the way it is since they are the "big" rewards from the table and at the same time the ones with less or no impact on the game

I've looked long and hard at this and it is at best ambiguous. No one is going to come to an agreement, and from what I understand, most tournaments tend to disallow the changing of flight modes on that turn (which is how I interpret the RAW. Not saying it is RAW, but it's how I see it)

There will probably never be an FAQ so just check with your buddies and understand that some people will see it one way and some other people will not

 Aeon wrote:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive"

They arrive before the movement phase due to the KDK Blood tithe wording 'immediately' so the movement phase restrictions doesn't apply correct?

You do realise all reserves arrive at the start of the turn and not during the movement phase right? So why does arriving at the exact same time as everyone else make you different? A truly baffling stance.

If the model has no wings it would just deep strike as if it didn't glide or swoop in.

Why can't I choose to not use its wings at all and have it pop out of the ground so I can use it on turn 2 like every other deep striking model in the game?

In all honesty I would love to see an FAQ on this because I'm very tired of debating and discussing what should be a clear rule with each opponent before the game even starts.

I'm playing my dusty csm codex instead since at least I don't need to spend half an hour figuring out if I can actually play my army the way I built it.

 Konrax wrote:
If the model has no wings it would just deep strike as if it didn't glide or swoop in.

Why can't I choose to not use its wings at all and have it pop out of the ground so I can use it on turn 2 like every other deep striking model in the game?

For the same reason FMCs that do a normal deep strike have to arrive swooping, because there is a rule that specifically says FMCs arrive from Deep Strike swooping.

The KDK summoning debate is on whether or not that rule applies to KDK summons

The demon prince summon states it may be equipped in any manner you choose as long as it is legal in the codex and what is represented on the model.

So exactly that I can choose to summon a demon prince without wings then?

 Konrax wrote:
The demon prince summon states it may be equipped in any manner you choose as long as it is legal in the codex and what is represented on the model.

So exactly that I can choose to summon a demon prince without wings then?

Yes you can summon a DP without wings the main advantage is that you can get him into combat a turn earlier.

 Konrax wrote:
The demon prince summon states it may be equipped in any manner you choose as long as it is legal in the codex and what is represented on the model.

So exactly that I can choose to summon a demon prince without wings then?

KDK says when you summon a DP it has warp forged armor and if you use a model with wings then it has demonic flight (so no, it can't be equipped in any manner).

So yes if you choose to summon a DP without wings then it won't be swooping because it isn't a FMC. but then it can't glide either. If you do want to be able more then 6"s a turn then you put wings on it which makes it a FMC and now it arrives swooping.

In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

Nothing on this from GW yet.

ATC (American Team Championships) ruled that the BT can change modes on the turn it is summoned (they also ruled that every KDK character killed, even outside of challenges, gives a blood point.

ITC ruled opposite on both of those.

Discuss with your opponent before playing.

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

I've actually found that summoning in BT for late game vector striking/whipping is not that bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus it can quickly go to hover mode and land on an objective which is useful late game when there are few units left around - with careful positioning an opponent can't get to within 3" of that objective without having to fight the BT

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

I'm surprised the most powerful option for the blood tieth is nearly useless yes. Draw backs are fine and great for balancing but at this point I will stick with army wide FNP every turn instead of a free blood thirster if people insist on it being useless.

Not sure why you need to be snarky about it either with the manner in which you post.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

Not completely free as you need to sacrifice a model thou, and usually that model will lower the ld on the rest of the units sacrificing part of their survival in the case of champions or make your HQ useless for the rest of the game as you will be assaulting on the 3rd turn after being summoned.

I think waiting for 2 turns to assault, -1 leadership on a unit, chance of misshapen (since you are spawning 6" away from a unit at the very least and) and the cost of the base model would be enough drawback.

Oh, also the chance of not passing your ld and turning into a spawn I would count that as a possible drawback of picking the "high & mighty" 7th and 8th rewards on the Blood Tithe

 Konrax wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

I'm surprised the most powerful option for the blood tieth is nearly useless yes. Draw backs are fine and great for balancing but at this point I will stick with army wide FNP every turn instead of a free blood thirster if people insist on it being useless.

Not sure why you need to be snarky about it either with the manner in which you post.

Snarkiness comes from people changing the rules to suit themselves as has been the issue with this. The KDK book is unfortunately very mediocre, cheating with a Bloodthirster doesn't necessarily change that. I've seen people summon 2-3 BTs in a game it is a decent mechanic even without cheating. Particularly if using the axe of 2 free Bloodthirsters...

As mentioned above there are still uses for Thirsters summoned late game. Realistically turn 3 is still viable as an assault option as you get to combat turn 5 and can potentially have turns 6 & 7 too.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
If the model has no wings it would just deep strike as if it didn't glide or swoop in.

Why can't I choose to not use its wings at all and have it pop out of the ground so I can use it on turn 2 like every other deep striking model in the game?

For the same reason FMCs that do a normal deep strike have to arrive swooping, because there is a rule that specifically says FMCs arrive from Deep Strike swooping.

The KDK summoning debate is on whether or not that rule applies to KDK summons

It should be pointed out that rule only applies to arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, not just any Deep Strike.

KDK Summons do not count as coming from Reserves. The units are not put in Reserves.

Psychic Conjuring are not put in to Reserves, but do count as coming from Reserves.

A Purchased Bloodthirster can be put in Reserves, and if Deep Striking, comes from Deep Strike Reserves.

A Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity is not coming from Reserves, nor counting as coming from Reserves, but does arrive at its new location via Deep Strike.

Of these cases, only two are required to be Swooping. The rules do not specify in the other two.

Charistoph has the right of it here. Nowhere does it say that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster are forced to enter swooping because they aren't arriving via deep strike reserves. For the record, ITC don't appear to have ruled against it either, I've just looked up their latest FAQ:

"A Flying Monstrous Creature summoned with Blood Tithe may choose to enter the game Swooping or Gliding."

This has all been discussed before though in previous threads, there's nothing really new to add. Unfortunately there will always be people who don't like the RAW here and accuse others of cheating.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

I'm surprised the most powerful option for the blood tieth is nearly useless yes. Draw backs are fine and great for balancing but at this point I will stick with army wide FNP every turn instead of a free blood thirster if people insist on it being useless.

Not sure why you need to be snarky about it either with the manner in which you post.

Snarkiness comes from people changing the rules to suit themselves as has been the issue with this. The KDK book is unfortunately very mediocre, cheating with a Bloodthirster doesn't necessarily change that. I've seen people summon 2-3 BTs in a game it is a decent mechanic even without cheating. Particularly if using the axe of 2 free Bloodthirsters...

As mentioned above there are still uses for Thirsters summoned late game. Realistically turn 3 is still viable as an assault option as you get to combat turn 5 and can potentially have turns 6 & 7 too.

I think you should reserve judgement on which mode counts as cheating until an official judgement is made because there are valid points on both sides.

At the same time reserve the snarkiness as well then.

It is about motivation. People aren't trying to work out the rules they have decided how they wished the rules would be and are trying to twist things to fit that. Like the bizarre OP claim that because the BT arrives at the same time as everyone else it is different. Or the newer claim that arriving via DS Reserves and arriving via DS are different despite the rules using the 2 phrases interchangeably and even states one is just a different name for the other.

It is cheating because you're not trying to work out the rules. You're trying to find an argument to do something against the rules to seek an unfair advantage...

Its such a contentious issue, that even though I think (HIWPI) the BT should be able to change modes - that I believe to not discuss it (and try to sneak it in) before having a game would be tantamount to cheating.

If your opponent is dead set against it, ask if it is ok that you proxy your 5 bloodthirster models as demon princes with no wings.

Honestly though hounds/letters/crushers are probably better summoning choices anyway.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or the newer claim that arriving via DS Reserves and arriving via DS are different despite the rules using the 2 phrases interchangeably and even states one is just a different name for the other.

Except they are not used interchangeably, and only using a small portion of a sentence out of context ever suggests that they are the same thing. Gate of Infinity is an example of this how much they are not interchangeable.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is cheating because you're not trying to work out the rules. You're trying to find an argument to do something against the rules to seek an unfair advantage...

It's also cheating by taking one small phrase out of context and trying to force your opponent to adhere to it.

Though, it's not as bad as using made-up rules or rules that haven't existed for a dozen years without discussing them with your opponent before the game.

 Konrax wrote:

I think you should reserve judgement on which mode counts as cheating until an official judgement is made because there are valid points on both sides.

What official judgement?

When was the last official GW FAQ?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or the newer claim that arriving via DS Reserves and arriving via DS are different despite the rules using the 2 phrases interchangeably and even states one is just a different name for the other.

Haha I just knew you were going to start clutching at this straw again. DS reserves and arriving via DS are two separate things as has been demonstrated to you time and time again. You just don't want to concede this point as your misinterpretation is the only crutch holding up your broken argument. When you have to resort to calling other posters cheats you're really not in a very good place.

You're also misrepresenting the OP deliberately. He never said that the BT arrives at the same time as everyone else. His stance was entirely theopposite.

This rules discussion as demonstrated is exactly why I don't even want to play pick up games with it. The build I play uses FNP as much as possible but why not leave the door open to use a thirster if the opportunity is right since I have the model?

Guess what I don't want to spend half an hour discussing it before the game.

Insulting others for their interpretation of the rules is also a very bad quality to have especially since this is meant to be a fun game.

The people I play games with are good friends and would never call me a cheater as we play trying to help each other with the rules to make sure we are playing the game right and not like you would play a tournament. Not one of the people I play games with would call me a cheater.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty it makes summoning a thirster very lack luster and almost guaranteed to be useless unless you can get it out on turn 2 which means you may get a single turn of combat out of it.

It is a free Bloodthirster are you surprised it has some drawbacks?

I'm surprised the most powerful option for the blood tieth is nearly useless yes. Draw backs are fine and great for balancing but at this point I will stick with army wide FNP every turn instead of a free blood thirster if people insist on it being useless.

Not sure why you need to be snarky about it either with the manner in which you post.

Snarkiness comes from people changing the rules to suit themselves as has been the issue with this. The KDK book is unfortunately very mediocre, cheating with a Bloodthirster doesn't necessarily change that. I've seen people summon 2-3 BTs in a game it is a decent mechanic even without cheating. Particularly if using the axe of 2 free Bloodthirsters...

As mentioned above there are still uses for Thirsters summoned late game. Realistically turn 3 is still viable as an assault option as you get to combat turn 5 and can potentially have turns 6 & 7 too.

Woooaaaah, calm down bud, you may see it as cheating but that doesn't make it so, don't go throwing that around as time may prove you right or wrong, have a little patience.

I agree with what your saying, just not the way you said it.

Let's see step by step :

1 - Flying Monstruous Creatures deployment

* Ok this first one is clear.


2 - Deep Strick rule

* In order to Deep Strike, you must start the game in Reserve, and it is called Deep Strike Reserve because you come from Reserves via Deep Strike.
Now just look at the n°3 & 4.


3 - Blood Tithe Table Designer's Note (KDK p111)

* Nowhere in this book it is specified you come from Reserves (or treated as having arrived from Reserves, like the conjuration psy) and there is a reason :


4 - Blood Host Detachment (KDK p69, Andy's example)

* Now someone here could explain to me how a unit "NOT CONSIDERED TO BE PART OF THE ARMY" (4) can "BEGIN THE GAME IN RESERVE" (2) ?!?

You come into play via deep strike then you scatter, you can't move anymore, you can't charge this turn (...) but you don't come from Reserves because your unit doesn't even exist until you spend your tithe points and unlike the conjuration psy nowhere in the KDK book it is specified you are considered coming from Reserves you just arrive via Deep Strike.
Deep Strike tell you HOW you come, not FROM WHERE you come ; the Deep Strike Reserve does.

So your bloodtithe DP/BT can choose to enter play in Gliding or Swooping mode, unlike a DP/BT held in RESERVES at the start of the game.