Why does the Chaos marine codex have such a bad rep?

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**vipoid**

Also, the Helldrake exhaust looks like a catfish.

**Experiment 626**

welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly don't get the hate for the Helldrake and the Fiends... Chaos players had been crying for ages about how we're nothing more than "Marines with spikes", with no identity of our very own, and more Daemon engines has been a pretty common wish among players.
Sure the GW paint schemes make them look more toy'ish, but honestly, the models themselves really aren't that bad, especially with a proper non-GW super bright scheme. They actually look pretty damn mean when given a darker scheme!.

It's the asthetics. They just clash with the rest of the model lines. If they looked more Daemonic, they'd fit in better.

Personally I think they look daemonic enough... They look a helluva lot better than the fugly as gak Soul Grinder!

Maybe they'd fit in better if the rest of our model line wasn't so damn ancient?! The Fiends look good alongside the new Hellbrute imho, though I'd still love a less mutated basic Dreadnought personally... (and make the Hellbrute itself more akin to a Possessed Venerable Dreadnought?!!)

**welshhoppo**

Experiment 626 wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly don't get the hate for the Helldrake and the Fiends... Chaos players had been crying for ages about how we're nothing more than "Marines with spikes", with no identity of our very own, and more Daemon engines has been a pretty common wish among players.
Sure the GW paint schemes make them look more toy'ish, but honestly, the models themselves really aren't that bad, especially with a proper non-GW super bright scheme. They actually look pretty damn mean when given a darker scheme!.

It's the asthetics. They just clash with the rest of the model lines. If they looked more Daemonic, they'd fit in better.

Personally I think they look daemonic enough... They look a helluva lot better than the fugly as gak Soul Grinder!

Maybe they'd fit in better if the rest of our model line wasn't so damn ancient?! The Fiends look good alongside the new Hellbrute imho, though I'd still love a less mutated basic Dreadnought personally... (and make the Hellbrute itself more akin to a Possessed Venerable Dreadnought?!!)

That would be nice, then maybe I could buy one squad of havocs to have all the weapons instead of only having one of each. Having to buy four boxes just to play 5 models with four autocannons is rediculous.

Instead you have ancient rank and file, then a different type of Daemonic vehicle. The fiends, drake and brute all look much different.

If GW took the models from the Dark Vengence set and worked them into the regular line, the chaos marines would be the best. I love the DV chosen. Shame about the mono load out...... So chosen squads have to be made up of regular marines if you wish to run special weapon squads.

**jasper76**

Dinobots...IMO they're cool models and all, but they look like Dinobots. And IIRC, Dinobots were good-guys.

**Korinov**

Leave the Helbrute as what it is (perhaps with a points drop), give me some real Chaos Dreadnought (with Hatred against loyalists by default). The Ferrum Infernus from IA13, basically.

**jasper76**

welshhoppo wrote:

If GW took the models from the Dark Vengence set and worked them into the regular line, the chaos marines would be the best. I love the DV chosen. Shame about the mono load out...... So chosen squads have to be made up of regular marines if you wish to run special weapon squads.

Not necessarily true. They're not the easiest models to convert, but it can be done.

**welshhoppo**

jasper76 wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:

If GW took the models from the Dark Vengence set and worked them into the regular line, the chaos marines would be the best. I love the DV chosen. Shame about the mono load out...... So chosen squads have to be made up of regular marines if you wish to run special weapon squads.

Not necessarily true. They're not the easiest models to convert, but it can be done.

True, but for your average Joe blogs "gamer and basic converter" it's way to much hassle. I'm not brilliant at converting, but I can do some basic work. GW should at least release the models for the rules.

**jasper76**

I absolutely agree. And i think the design of the DV Chosen models are very, very nice, and they should release a customizable Chosen box with similar sculpts.

And starter sets aside, IMO every box you buy from GW should have every single option listed in the codex. CSM is particularly bad about this. If they can do a decent enough job of this with Tyranids, why not with other armies?

**Korinov**

A box of multi-component Dark Vengeance-styled Chosen would have sold like cupcakes.

I'm actually still deciding between the DV chosen and some normal CSM to build a small Chosen unit. I'm planning to build a Champion + four chosen with flamers small unit, and I'm still thinking about ways to properly convert the DV chosen. The two "standing" ones with the bolters will be easy I guess, just sawing the boltgun off and gluing a flamer there instead. The other two will be a matter of swapping the bolt pistols for flamers, although I predict those are going to be a bit more tricky. Not sure what I could do with the twin claws guy, perhaps leave him as unit champion and use the actual champion as a Dark Apostle.

**Formosa**

Bad rules, old models, dark eldar syndrome, pre update the dark eldar suffered from all these problems and it took a major overhaul to fix them, chaos desperately needs the same.

**Slayer-Fan123**

nareik wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Arkaine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Warp talons + Gate of Infinity = everybody blinded

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
CSM's don't have accurate Deep Strike. THEN you have to roll to see if the enemy is blinded. Also, they aren't durable for the cost either. I ran numbers for them and Raptors a long while back I can show you. The ONLY thing they do better is attacking MEQ outside of cover. That's REALLY it. Plus Raptors can take Melta Guns.

May I point out that there is no reason to take Warp Talons to Blind people? Like, at all? If you want to do that, use Plague Marines and throw Blight Grenades. They partially count as defensive grenades... guess what those do?

I always forget Defensive Grenades do that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because it isn't balanced, internally OR externally.

You have little to no reason to use units like Forgefiends, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Dark Apostles, most of the special characters, Berserker and Rubric Marines, etc. There's only TWO DT options, the Heldrake is harder to position now because screw having a 180 degree angle when you are a dragon.

Outside of that, the usable options are costly compared to what the Loyalists, Necrons, and Eldar are capable of. Remember what I said about the Heldrake earlier, Noise Marines paying 30 points for their best weapon, Plague Marines being stuck with Rhinos, etc.

Forgefiends wreck house, 3 S8 AP2 Small blasts will obliterate MEQ's and TEQ's while putting the hurt on MC's.
Mulitators are useful to some extent. If you deep steike a pack of them behind enemy lines, only a stupid person wouldnt start shooting them.
Warp talons + Gate of Infinity = everybody blinded

1. At 24" for 200 points on a platform that isn't durable for 200 points. Small Blasts suck anyway.
2. Ah yes, on the backfield where they will get to the enemy when thanks to SaP being a useful rule for a melee squad.
3. CSM's don't have accurate Deep Strike. THEN you have to roll to see if the enemy is blinded. Also, they aren't durable for the cost either. I ran numbers for them and Raptors a long while back I can show you. The ONLY thing they do better is attacking MEQ outside of cover. That's REALLY it. Plus Raptors can take Melta Guns.
Why are you replying as if he implied these units have absolutely no draw backs? Most units, have pros and cons, which really is as it should be.

If anyone wants to use these units I suggest running them on a smaller board. Makes it harder to get away from shorter range/slower things.

These are units that HAVE no pros because whatever they do is better done elsewhere. ZERO pros. Count them.

Clearly there are pros, even if the balance falls on the side of cons.

Are you being intentionally hyperbolic? I honestly don't understand how you could mean they have no pros.

You can't seriously say having Ap2 blasts isn't a pro? Yes, there are disadvantages to it, but taking a forgefiend isn't the same as just not using the points at all. When I use obliterators one of my favourite weapons to chose is the plasma cannon, but then I am limited to firing only every other round, so there is a pro for forgefiends off the bat!

65 points for a deepstriking chainfist that can't be killed by a single lascannon/melta wound (and odds on survives two such wounds) isn't useless, even if it has to spend 2 or 3 turns waiting to be able to assault. Being a single model unit vastly mitigates deepstrike scatter (which CSM don't have many ways to control). The only thing that competes for a cheap/throwaway sucker punch is the obliterator, but they aren't anywhere near as good in combat, not having a chain fist, extra attacks, a decent initiative to flee escape combats, are higher target priority, more competitive slot selection. I always loved using mutilators in my previous chaos army, so much so when I started a new chaos army I once again use mutilators!

Warp talons I won't defend as I have no experience with them, and haven't given them much thought.

AP2 Small Blasts are NOT that great, actually. There's a reason that Plasma Cannon Devastators aren't used a lot, and those have the advantage of being greater in range by an entire foot. YES, the Ectoplasma Forgefiend is useless.

2/3 Turns is enough time to runaway from the Mutilator, It doesn't matter though, seeing as he won't get anywhere afterwards thanks to being slow. YES, the Mutilator is useless. Termicide is used instead of Mutilators for a reason.

Don't bother ever trying to defend Warp Talons. The only thing they do better is charge MEQ outside of cover. Otherwise, Raptors are more durable and put out more wounds, on top of being able to take Special Weapons. YES, the Warp Talon is useless.

**SHUPPET**

He's right tho it's still hyperbolic to say they have zero pros. Their is something they do better than their alternatives, even if they do everything else worse. The cons might just outweigh the pros (quite heavily too in the case of Warp Talons).

**Experiment 626**

welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly don't get the hate for the Helldrake and the Fiends... Chaos players had been crying for ages about how we're nothing more than "Marines with spikes", with no identity of our very own, and more Daemon engines has been a pretty common wish among players.
Sure the GW paint schemes make them look more toy'ish, but honestly, the models themselves really aren't that bad, especially with a proper non-GW super bright scheme. They actually look pretty damn mean when given a darker scheme!.

It's the asthetics. They just clash with the rest of the model lines. If they looked more Daemonic, they'd fit in better.

Personally I think they look daemonic enough... They look a helluva lot better than the fugly as gak Soul Grinder!

Maybe they'd fit in better if the rest of our model line wasn't so damn ancient?! The Fiends look good alongside the new Hellbrute imho, though I'd still love a less mutated basic Dreadnought personally... (and make the Hellbrute itself more akin to a Possessed Venerable Dreadnought?!!)

That would be nice, then maybe I could buy one squad of havocs to have all the weapons instead of only having one of each. Having to buy four boxes just to play 5 models with four autocannons is rediculous.

Instead you have ancient rank and file, then a different type of Daemonic vehicle. The fiends, drake and brute all look much different.

If GW took the models from the Dark Vengence set and worked them into the regular line, the chaos marines would be the best. I love the DV chosen. Shame about the mono load out...... So chosen squads have to be made up of regular marines if you wish to run special weapon squads.

Actually, I'd really prefer to see GW give us basic Chaos Marines + Havocs that are basically cleaned-up & modernised versions of our current grunts. Then go crazy and bling-out an actual Chosen kit + Cult Marines.
That way, we can readily cover all the bases with Chaos Marines, from the likes of Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors/Renegades up to the really carzy-pants looking Word Bearers and/or 10,000 year old mutated monsters.

@Slayer-fan: Warptalons are actually really solid units, in a Codex: Chaos Daemons army!

I've used a small unit of 5-6 with great results, as they provide my Tzeentch forces with the close combat punch they almost completely lack. Meanwhile, between easy access to Divination and Malefic, the Talons are getting all the supports that are completely missing from within their own codex.
Grimoire/Cursed Earth/Forewarning these b******* up and then nuke their intended target with Misfortune and they'll tear apart most anything short of GMC's and vehicles.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

I think part of the problem is people generally want a I win button and thanks to the drake nerd which was entirely justified the army actually takes skill to play. Heck imho the Murder Sword is one of the best artefacts in the game and I hope gw Dosent raise the book above its current level so hopefully competitive players will stay away from it along with the band wagonners

**Slayer-Fan123**

Experiment 626 wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly don't get the hate for the Helldrake and the Fiends... Chaos players had been crying for ages about how we're nothing more than "Marines with spikes", with no identity of our very own, and more Daemon engines has been a pretty common wish among players.
Sure the GW paint schemes make them look more toy'ish, but honestly, the models themselves really aren't that bad, especially with a proper non-GW super bright scheme. They actually look pretty damn mean when given a darker scheme!.

It's the asthetics. They just clash with the rest of the model lines. If they looked more Daemonic, they'd fit in better.

Personally I think they look daemonic enough... They look a helluva lot better than the fugly as gak Soul Grinder!

Maybe they'd fit in better if the rest of our model line wasn't so damn ancient?! The Fiends look good alongside the new Hellbrute imho, though I'd still love a less mutated basic Dreadnought personally... (and make the Hellbrute itself more akin to a Possessed Venerable Dreadnought?!!)

That would be nice, then maybe I could buy one squad of havocs to have all the weapons instead of only having one of each. Having to buy four boxes just to play 5 models with four autocannons is rediculous.

Instead you have ancient rank and file, then a different type of Daemonic vehicle. The fiends, drake and brute all look much different.

If GW took the models from the Dark Vengence set and worked them into the regular line, the chaos marines would be the best. I love the DV chosen. Shame about the mono load out...... So chosen squads have to be made up of regular marines if you wish to run special weapon squads.

Actually, I'd really prefer to see GW give us basic Chaos Marines + Havocs that are basically cleaned-up & modernised versions of our current grunts. Then go crazy and bling-out an actual Chosen kit + Cult Marines.
That way, we can readily cover all the bases with Chaos Marines, from the likes of Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors/Renegades up to the really carzy-pants looking Word Bearers and/or 10,000 year old mutated monsters.

@Slayer-fan: Warptalons are actually really solid units, in a Codex: Chaos Daemons army!

I've used a small unit of 5-6 with great results, as they provide my Tzeentch forces with the close combat punch they almost completely lack. Meanwhile, between easy access to Divination and Malefic, the Talons are getting all the supports that are completely missing from within their own codex.
Grimoire/Cursed Earth/Forewarning these b******* up and then nuke their intended target with Misfortune and they'll tear apart most anything short of GMC's and vehicles.

I've seen Talons used as a gimmick like that. Entirely unimpressive. You could just get better melee elsewhere. Blood Crushers will do the same thing AND be faster. Nobody thinks Blood Crushers are great, either.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I think part of the problem is people generally want a I win button and thanks to the drake nerd which was entirely justified the army actually takes skill to play. Heck imho the Murder Sword is one of the best artefacts in the game and I hope gw Dosent raise the book above its current level so hopefully competitive players will stay away from it along with the band wagonners

Not a single person in this thread (that I noticed) said anything about an "I win" button. Having stupid points costs and ineffective units has nothing to do with the player at all. I'm sure you're the Napoleon of the tabletop who manages to win tournaments against the top lists out there, though.

I'm sure you'll get your wish, at any rate. I doubt the next book will be a whole lot better or powerful in the Eldar/Necrons/Space Marines/Tau sense.

**Slayer-Fan123**

SHUPPET wrote:
He's right tho it's still hyperbolic to say they have zero pros. Their is something they do better than their alternatives, even if they do everything else worse. The cons might just outweigh the pros (quite heavily too in the case of Warp Talons).

If the better unit has the SAME pro, it cancels out. It goes back to the statement as to what tools the bad unit gives otherwise. Chainfist? Melta Guns will give Armorbane the turn they actually come in. Worst case scenario you can always buy the Chainfist for Terminators. It isn't really a pro. Sorry. Mutilators are literally THAT much junk. Waste of paper and plastic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I think part of the problem is people generally want a I win button and thanks to the drake nerd which was entirely justified the army actually takes skill to play. Heck imho the Murder Sword is one of the best artefacts in the game and I hope gw Dosent raise the book above its current level so hopefully competitive players will stay away from it along with the band wagonners

The Murder Sword is one of the worst artifacts in the game. Entirely conditional and flatout horrible in every other situation.

**KhorneontheCobb**

People are always saying that Warp Talons and gate of Infinity is great for blinding people.
First and foremost- their blind ability is only when they arrive from deepstrike reserves, not anytime they deepstrike. So, if you play by the rules- nope. GoI does nothing for Warp Talons.

Even in KDK where they get both MoK and DoK (a huge improvement) they are seriously over costed and DONT HAVE GRENADES.

Let's all stop trying to figure out how Warp Talons are good. The answer is - they're not good.

**Arkaine**

I actually like the dinobots. They aren't a reminder that our Daemons are just flat out better. Instead they actually look like vehicles made to be intimidating and weird. They represent Chaos Space Marines instead of being just another Bloodthirster.

What I would really like to see is access to a dinbot champion of some sort. Currently the craziest looking character we have is the Warpsmith. Be'lakor and Daemon Princes are just too much in the Daemon direction and remind us we're better off using our allies as the primary detachment. We could use something like those Venerable Dreadnought heroes the Space Marines get. A unique Helbrute that doesn't suck or a Possessed marine lord or even just ANY terminator dude with *gasp!* decent RANGED WEAPONS!

**Experiment 626**

KhorneontheCobb wrote:
People are always saying that Warp Talons and gate of Infinity is great for blinding people.
First and foremost- their blind ability is only when they arrive from deepstrike reserves, not anytime they deepstrike. So, if you play by the rules- nope. GoI does nothing for Warp Talons.

Even in KDK where they get both MoK and DoK (a huge improvement) they are seriously over costed and DONT HAVE GRENADES.

Let's all stop trying to figure out how Warp Talons are good. The answer is - they're not good.

They're playable when you have Divination & Malefic/Grimoire. (Shred + Rending through Misfortune makes them into scary MC hunters)
Daemon Icons also work as Deep Strike mitigation, since the Talons themselves have the Daemon USR, making their Blind ability work for once.

Within a CSM or KDK force, they're entirely pointless since the one thing we don't need is yet more close combat MEQ killing options.

**GoliothOnline**

CSM Get a bad rep because they are the "Bad guys" in the 40k lore and therefore every codex that has come out since 3rd ED has them crawling around on all fours trying to be as good as their imperial counterparts but failing so horrendously with Jack of all trade - master of none units. This means that to the loyalists, CSM being bad guys and GW having so many Loyalist army collectors, CSM must naturally be a terrible army and not compete in any way with the loyalists.

I don't recall a time (Even today, in which the codex is in a pathetic state) that loyalists don't complain CSM are "Too Op because them Helturkeys are scurreh to ma Muhreens". The general consensus is that CSM will never be as good as their loyalist counterparts.

If they were to be, most people think they would simply be SMs with Dinobots and inferior everything, which is basically what they are right now.. So the real reason CSM aren't competitive, played often, seen as a fun army nor in a good state Dex wise, is because GW wants to make more money on the vastly larger Loyalist player base and the galaxy within 40k clearly needing a punching bag army. Orks aren't that though because aesthetically Orks are fun to convert and play, are cheaper, numerable in bodies per points and generally dont suck so bad they make you hate having a Wallet and ever having spent money on the hobby.

/end rant

**ZergSmasher**

Korinov wrote:
A box of multi-component Dark Vengeance-styled Chosen would have sold like cupcakes.

I'm actually still deciding between the DV chosen and some normal CSM to build a small Chosen unit. I'm planning to build a Champion + four chosen with flamers small unit, and I'm still thinking about ways to properly convert the DV chosen. The two "standing" ones with the bolters will be easy I guess, just sawing the boltgun off and gluing a flamer there instead. The other two will be a matter of swapping the bolt pistols for flamers, although I predict those are going to be a bit more tricky. Not sure what I could do with the twin claws guy, perhaps leave him as unit champion and use the actual champion as a Dark Apostle.

I use the DV Chosen as unit champions for regular CSM in my Khorne Daemonkin army. The sculpts are nice even if running the DV Chosen as a squad is a major fail. I am currently painting a squad of my own Chosen with plasma guns (the four regular dudes are from the CSM set, the champion is one of the DV bolter guys whose bolter I made into a combi-plasma). When I get them painted, they will look pretty good and their color scheme will work well with Cypher (in his formation).

**Korinov**

ZergSmasher wrote:

I use the DV Chosen as unit champions for regular CSM in my Khorne Daemonkin army. The sculpts are nice even if running the DV Chosen as a squad is a major fail. I am currently painting a squad of my own Chosen with plasma guns (the four regular dudes are from the CSM set, the champion is one of the DV bolter guys whose bolter I made into a combi-plasma). When I get them painted, they will look pretty good and their color scheme will work well with Cypher (in his formation).

Yep, I've also seen them used as regular CSM champions and they certainly look the part. Pity is I don't need more CSM champions

**Alcibiades**

Guys, people will react to you better if you say "I think that x isn't very good" instead of "x isn't very good."

Just in general, you know.

**Gunnvulcan**

When you are stuck with options like Rubric, mutilators, possessed, warp talons, forgefiends, apostles (which burns my ass as i play word bearers), incredibly expensive marked marines, and stale old weapons choices, its hard to get excited about the army.

Hell, look at berserkers. How old is their model?

Rubric and slaanesh marines are way too pricy and unuseable.

Mutilators and possessed are so god damn awful, its amazing. Compare a possessed at 30pts and a scatter bike at 27, and tell me how that isnt shameful.

I want them to be good, i really do. Word bearers are my dream army. So diverse and flavorful. They just cant work will CSM gets some legion rules and better choices.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Alcibiades wrote:

Guys, people will react to you better if you say "I think that x isn't very good" instead of "x isn't very good."

Just in general, you know.

Math can't be opinionized.

**Experiment 626**

Gunnvulcan wrote:
When you are stuck with options like Rubric, mutilators, possessed, warp talons, forgefiends, apostles (which burns my ass as i play word bearers), incredibly expensive marked marines, and stale old weapons choices, its hard to get excited about the army.

Hell, look at berserkers. How old is their model?

Rubric and slaanesh marines are way too pricy and unuseable.

Mutilators and possessed are so god damn awful, its amazing. Compare a possessed at 30pts and a scatter bike at 27, and tell me how that isnt shameful.

I want them to be good, i really do. Word bearers are my dream army. So diverse and flavorful. They just cant work will CSM gets some legion rules and better choices.

The "current" Berserker plastic kit was "new" back in March/April 1999!!

I know because the WD that featured their release I bought from the Newcastle mega mall, during my hockey team's trip to England for a series of friendlies. (because we weren't playing enough hockey back home and needed MOAR!)

Show me another current army that has a plastic kit that isn't even from this current freaking century!

**ZergSmasher**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Show me another current army that has a plastic kit that isn't even from this current freaking century!

Tau have some kits that are pretty old. I'm not sure if they're that old, but they're old, even if GW has changed the box art some.

**Spetulhu**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Show me another current army that has a plastic kit that isn't even from this current freaking century!

Well, you're right there - my SoB Exorcist and Immolator kits should be from this century. But they're the only plastic I get.

**Vryce**

ZergSmasher wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Show me another current army that has a plastic kit that isn't even from this current freaking century!

Tau have some kits that are pretty old. I'm not sure if they're that old, but they're old, even if GW has changed the box art some.

The Tau XV8's, Firewarriors (not the new Breachers/Strikers) and Kroot are all from 2001.