Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok. So consider this situation. I'm an Imperial Guard officer, highest ranking on a planet, defending against an Ork invasion. It's a major planet and a major invasion force.

Assume I have around 10 million soldiers under arms defending the one major continent. The ork invasion has a similar amount.

I put out the call for help and its my lucky day. A strike cruiser of Ultramarines shows up with a company sized force.

But what are they . . . good for? Do I turn over command? Do I remain in command? Do I use them as just another elite strike unit? Do they go do their own thing? How do they make any sort of. . . concrete helpful in this sort of a situation?

I'm thinking back to when I used to play Epic, and marines were generally just a small unit of elite troops that could go grab an objective or knock out an enemy force. But even then I was usually using almost a company sized force of them! And then they'd take heavy casualties.

So what exactly, are space marines good for? Everyone loves having them around, but how much help are they really?

And I'm not trying to troll, just trying to start an interesting conversation.

I think it would depend somewhat on your actual rank...

IIRC, Marines technically come under the command of regional warmasters, but in actual practice they tend to do their own thing and will co-operate with Guard leadership so long as it suits them.

You'd quite likely no longer be in charge of defending the planet.
Astartes have their own tactical advisors and would likely have a plan before they hit the ground. A plan that you and your guard would then become a key part of, if they felt it necessary.

You do not use them. Their either work alongside you, or your men become an asset to their greater authority.

They perform the Steel Rehn if they know anything about tactics and strategy.

The Ultramarines will likely tell you to hold positions while they kill the Warboss and leave you to clean up.

Be grateful it was Ultramarines. Space Sharks might have issued "special anti-Ork gear", have your men charge them, and then blow up the bombs as the Orks are finishing the men off in melee.

 argonak wrote:
Ok. So consider this situation. I'm an Imperial Guard officer, highest ranking on a planet, defending against an Ork invasion. It's a major planet and a major invasion force.

Assume I have around 10 million soldiers under arms defending the one major continent. The ork invasion has a similar amount.

I put out the call for help and its my lucky day. A strike cruiser of Ultramarines shows up with a company sized force.

But what are they . . . good for? Do I turn over command? Do I remain in command? Do I use them as just another elite strike unit? Do they go do their own thing? How do they make any sort of. . . concrete helpful in this sort of a situation?

I'm thinking back to when I used to play Epic, and marines were generally just a small unit of elite troops that could go grab an objective or knock out an enemy force. But even then I was usually using almost a company sized force of them! And then they'd take heavy casualties.

So what exactly, are space marines good for? Everyone loves having them around, but how much help are they really?

And I'm not trying to troll, just trying to start an interesting conversation.

In all reality, they'd really be a commando unit or "tip of the spear" assault unit, and in either case probably have a limited shelf life. Any level of casualties are going to quickly reduce them to ineffectual status in short order, which is not something most stories reflect, and the iconic "drop pod assault" thing that Marines are so renowned for would often likely result in them being encircled and destroyed in short order.


Space Marines really are more "fantasy Knights in SPAAAAACE" than a realistic military force. They don't really work once you really start thinking about them, and they're in such short supply as to be functionally nonexistent when there's billions of guardsmen and PDF troopers for each Space Marine.

Add to the fact that, despite the common "well they'll just go in and kill the enemy command", they really don't have much of an intelligence gathering apparatus to tell them where such things are and how well defended they may be. It's one thing to say "well, we think the enemy commander is in city X", but having just a couple of hundred marines to sweep a large city is effectively worthless no matter how powerful they are.

As for command, typically a Space Marine has no ability to directly command Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy forces. That's a huge no-no after the Horus Heresy. In such instances where it occurs, it's because something like Segmentum Command has judged the Space Marine commander the best choice and allowed them to take command, but otherwise no, they don't just automatically assume command authority from whatever commanders are already there, unless they've got some sort of other title or rank that would allow them to do so (which some might have).

Though their numbers are stupidly unrealistic, I like to think a chapter deployed in full force could subjugate the average planet. You've got a shock/terror/elite vanguard dropping down right on top of you. Walking, sentient, human-ish hunting tanks with an actual lifestyle devoted to war.

I always figured they're good at dropping down, wrecking house, flying back up and doing the exact same thing somewhere else just as important on the planet until the job is done.

 damattybear wrote:
Though their numbers are stupidly unrealistic, I like to think a chapter deployed in full force could subjugate the average planet. You've got a shock/terror/elite vanguard dropping down right on top of you. Walking, sentient, human-ish hunting tanks with an actual lifestyle devoted to war.

I always figured they're good at dropping down, wrecking house, flying back up and doing the exact same thing somewhere else just as important on the planet until the job is done.

The problem is that they've got very little intel apparatus telling them where to drop, are absurdly vulnerable to encirclement once on the ground (and if anyone with a radio to any sort of artillery battery gets just about any signal off, they're going to be very screwed), and against a half-way serious opponent simply don't have enough aircraft to hold the skies (which will make retrieval after drop rather unfortunate).

It's be like if Space Marines showed up on earth and hot dropped on the Pentagon on Earth. Ok, they found the one big easy well known command center and destroyed it. Now they're facing several hundred hostile aircraft within range from dozens of airfield, cruise missiles launched from hundreds of miles away, naval assets engaging from the sea, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops mobilizing to surround them and artillery galore, as hundreds of local commands respond and backup systems & protocols kick into gear, or they just get a nuke thrown at their drop location.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 damattybear wrote:
Though their numbers are stupidly unrealistic, I like to think a chapter deployed in full force could subjugate the average planet. You've got a shock/terror/elite vanguard dropping down right on top of you. Walking, sentient, human-ish hunting tanks with an actual lifestyle devoted to war.

I always figured they're good at dropping down, wrecking house, flying back up and doing the exact same thing somewhere else just as important on the planet until the job is done.

The problem is that they've got very little intel apparatus telling them where to drop, are absurdly vulnerable to encirclement once on the ground (and if anyone with a radio to any sort of artillery battery gets just about any signal off, they're going to be very screwed), and against a half-way serious opponent simply don't have enough aircraft to hold the skies (which will make retrieval after drop rather unfortunate).

It's be like if Space Marines showed up on earth and hot dropped on the Pentagon on Earth. Ok, they found the one big easy well known command center and destroyed it. Now they're facing several hundred hostile aircraft within range from dozens of airfield, cruise missiles launched from hundreds of miles away, naval assets engaging from the sea, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops mobilizing to surround them and artillery galore, as hundreds of local commands respond and backup systems & protocols kick into gear, or they just get a nuke thrown at their drop location.

You do remember that Astartes can simply "hollywood hack" enemy communications with a Techmarine, rip information from captured combatants by a Librarian's abilities, or simply consume the brains of the enemy dead to absorb their memories right? Right? Or just drop down some scouts in masking adaptive camo cloaks who observe enemy movements for a while before reporting back. Space Marines have crazy good intel abilities, especially if they have a Librarian who doesn't even need to set down on the planet. Only issue is perils of the warp.

Or just use Cameleonine, AKA cloaking Crysis-style.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 damattybear wrote:
Though their numbers are stupidly unrealistic, I like to think a chapter deployed in full force could subjugate the average planet. You've got a shock/terror/elite vanguard dropping down right on top of you. Walking, sentient, human-ish hunting tanks with an actual lifestyle devoted to war.

I always figured they're good at dropping down, wrecking house, flying back up and doing the exact same thing somewhere else just as important on the planet until the job is done.

The problem is that they've got very little intel apparatus telling them where to drop, are absurdly vulnerable to encirclement once on the ground (and if anyone with a radio to any sort of artillery battery gets just about any signal off, they're going to be very screwed), and against a half-way serious opponent simply don't have enough aircraft to hold the skies (which will make retrieval after drop rather unfortunate).

It's be like if Space Marines showed up on earth and hot dropped on the Pentagon on Earth. Ok, they found the one big easy well known command center and destroyed it. Now they're facing several hundred hostile aircraft within range from dozens of airfield, cruise missiles launched from hundreds of miles away, naval assets engaging from the sea, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops mobilizing to surround them and artillery galore, as hundreds of local commands respond and backup systems & protocols kick into gear, or they just get a nuke thrown at their drop location.

You do remember that Astartes can simply "hollywood hack" enemy communications with a Techmarine

I don't recall that being something that's a really routine ability of theirs. Off the top of my head I don't recall a fluff instance of them using such an ability (not saying there might not be one, but I honestly cannot recall one). These guys are also in extremely limited number, and they're the same guys that have to maintain everything mechanical from weapons to tanks and aircraft and power armor and starship engines and Gellar fields and recover drop pods and everything else, on top of things like building fortifications, operate thunderfire cannons, and other such things.

Additionally, assuming they just magically know which systems to "hack" and which signals to intercept, breaking encryption is one thing, actually reviewing said data, analyzing it, figuring out what it means, determining who it's going to and who's sending it, and what value it has is another thing entirely, something that typically has large numbers of people assigned to it that Space Marines have never been described as having. It's something that organizations like the Administratum and Inquisition and elements of the Imperial Guard (and real world militaries) have vast resources devoted to.

rip information from captured combatants by a Librarian's abilities

Sure, but they need to gain access of some sort to that combatant first, and they have to actually know something of value.

, or simply consume the brains of the enemy dead to absorb their memories right? Right?

Setting aside the fact that this is a demonstrably physically impossible ability (particularly as, even if the brain weren't already dead, eating it would destroy the synapse connections and any information contained therein), it has the same problem as the above, they need access to someone beforehand that knows what they need to know. If they've been told to go to a world and attack it, they can't execute that devastating alpha strike on the command centers until they somehow get hold someone who knows where these things are (which sufffers much the same problem...how do you know who has such information?), at which point everyone likely already knows they've shown up and the element of surprise is lost.

Or just drop down some scouts in masking adaptive camo cloaks who observe enemy movements for a while before reporting back.

Which works assuming the dropship/pod doesn't get detected and intercepted or quickly bracketed upon landing, that has some tactical/operational value, but no more than really any other special "scout" unit anyone has access to. Sure, you can sit a squad up and observe a single encampment. Great, they've got basic infantry observation, much like Ratlings and the like.

Pretty much this is all local battlefield stuff. Capturing enemy personnel and direct observation. Interrogation may be more effective with their abilities, but aside from that they've got very little resembling a modern military intelligence apparatus that would enable them to engage in an opponent on anything near a strategic level.

Space Marines have crazy good intel abilities, especially if they have a Librarian who doesn't even need to set down on the planet.

Why wouldn't a Librarian need to set down on a planet? Since when can they just scan everyone on a world from orbit, find exactly who they need, and tear the information from their mind from space? I can't recall any fluff example of something like that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 damattybear wrote:
Though their numbers are stupidly unrealistic, I like to think a chapter deployed in full force could subjugate the average planet. You've got a shock/terror/elite vanguard dropping down right on top of you. Walking, sentient, human-ish hunting tanks with an actual lifestyle devoted to war.

I always figured they're good at dropping down, wrecking house, flying back up and doing the exact same thing somewhere else just as important on the planet until the job is done.

The problem is that they've got very little intel apparatus telling them where to drop, are absurdly vulnerable to encirclement once on the ground (and if anyone with a radio to any sort of artillery battery gets just about any signal off, they're going to be very screwed), and against a half-way serious opponent simply don't have enough aircraft to hold the skies (which will make retrieval after drop rather unfortunate).

It's be like if Space Marines showed up on earth and hot dropped on the Pentagon on Earth. Ok, they found the one big easy well known command center and destroyed it. Now they're facing several hundred hostile aircraft within range from dozens of airfield, cruise missiles launched from hundreds of miles away, naval assets engaging from the sea, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops mobilizing to surround them and artillery galore, as hundreds of local commands respond and backup systems & protocols kick into gear, or they just get a nuke thrown at their drop location.

You do remember that Astartes can simply "hollywood hack" enemy communications with a Techmarine

I don't recall that being something that's a really routine ability of theirs. Off the top of my head I don't recall a fluff instance of them using such an ability (not saying there might not be one, but I honestly cannot recall one). These guys are also in extremely limited number, and they're the same guys that have to maintain everything mechanical from weapons to tanks and aircraft and power armor and starship engines and Gellar fields and recover drop pods and everything else, on top of things like building fortifications, operate thunderfire cannons, and other such things.

Additionally, breaking encryption is one thing, actually reviewing said data, analyzing it, figuring out what it means, determining who it's going to and who's sending it, and what value it has is another thing entirely, something that typically has large numbers of people assigned to it that Space Marines have never been described as having. It's something that organizations like the Administratum and Inquisition and elements of the Imperial Guard have vast resources devoted to.

Well one hacked a Necron Lord once, and IIRC others have just brute forced their way through enemy communications through them. Like I said, Hollywood Hacking.

rip information from captured combatants by a Librarian's abilities

Sure, but they need to gain access of some sort to that combatant first, and they have to actually know it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Well one hacked a Necron Lord once

O_o what's that from?

, and IIRC others have just brute forced their way through enemy communications through them. Like I said, Hollywood Hacking.

I honestly cannot recall an instance of this, it might be out there, but I just can't remember it or find it.

That's not to hard when infiltrators such as Scouts can kidnap enemies or they can take captives during an assault on a more weakly defended border instead of the heart of enemy territory.

The problem is that this assumes they're not detected coming in from orbit raising all kinds of alarms and intercepts, and that the people they grab in said backwater know anything of value beyond when the lunch cart comes, when guards at the local checkpoint are rotated, and who's got the hots for the camp nurse.

Remember, while Scouts may be able to be "stealthy", their insertion methods by and large are just as dramatic as landing a Dreadnought.

Doesn't matter if it's impossible, it's been one of their canon abilities for a long time. And it's far easier than taking a person live considering they can slaughter a couple thousand enemies with an initial deepstrike and consume the corpses before the information fades.

This is where we run into a problem. We're assuming a small squad of scouts (the new guys with the least experience no less in most cases) gets in, completely undetected by any orbital/air defense networks, sets off no alarms, kills thousands of people without any additional alarms being raised, and they manage to do all that *and* find the person that knows something relevant, and doesn't get intercepted on their way back out or have their communications jammed (or tracked) or anything?

I can buy "small inflitration team gathers local intel on nearby convoy route from captured squad leader after small skirmish", but of greater value than that? They'd either need the most amazingly statistical improbable luck in the world on a routine basis with enemies that practice very poor information control and response abilities.

Scouts have cameoline cloaks, adaptive camo that allow them to blend in perfectly with the surrounding environment similar to Elven Cloaks of LOTR- they can observe in the heart of enemy territory and probably use them to successfully stow away on a non-military vessel for infiltration.

I get that, but it's not some sort of unseen or extremely uncommon battlefield gear, IG infantry units use it as well as tanks and entrenched guns, and IIRC is issued in five meter by five meter sheets to many guard units to obscure positions and tents and the like. It's not run of the mill conscript issue but it's also not rare lost tech. Additionally, at least as far as I can tell, it does nothing to obscure stuff like thermal sensors, IR gear, or motion detectors in any description I can find. It's not a fool-proof wonder material that most foes probably haven't seen before. It's not something that's going to allow the SM scouts to get away with anything that less capable counterparts (like camo-cloak vets) would not.

Scrying/prophecy. It provides more vague information such as in Ravenwing or Xenos... but like in Xenos and Ravenwing it also is more dangerous and chances daemonic possession.

Sure, something like that I can concede, but such information is often also vague, misleading, or incomplete.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Well one hacked a Necron Lord once, and IIRC others have just brute forced their way through enemy communications through them. Like I said, Hollywood Hacking.

How? HOW?
He hacked an ancient piece of technology he's never seen before? Isn't that extreme tech-heresy?
How the feth did he interface with it? Do Necrons use USBs or Firewire? Who trained him on how?
Cause if you're incapable of reproducing your own technology, and have to literally trade Necron-Tech (in the instance of Ctan Blades and Tesseract Cubes), you are not going to be able to understand what you're looking at, much less be able to interface with it.
Keep in mind that those trades are also some of the most guarded secrets in the Universe, and theres no way any average Techmarine would know about it.
Even if he magic-bullcrap hacked it, the data would all be in Necrontyr, since I'm pretty sure the Necrons don't speak High-fething-Gothic, and theres no way he could have translated it.

BL, this is the laziest, stupidest crap I've ever seen you do. I demand to know what book that is, and who wrote it.
I will avoid that author forever.

 Mantorok wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Well one hacked a Necron Lord once, and IIRC others have just brute forced their way through enemy communications through them. Like I said, Hollywood Hacking.

How? HOW?
He hacked an ancient piece of technology he's never seen before? Isn't that extreme tech-heresy?
How the feth did he interface with it? Do Necrons use USBs or Firewire? Who trained him on how?
Cause if you're incapable of reproducing your own technology, and have to literally trade Necron-Tech (in the instance of Ctan Blades and Tesseract Cubes), you are not going to be able to understand what you're looking at, much less be able to interface with it.
Keep in mind that those trades are also some of the most guarded secrets in the Universe, and theres no way any average Techmarine would know about it.
Even if he magic-bullcrap hacked it, the data would all be in Necrontyr, since I'm pretty sure the Necrons don't speak High-fething-Gothic, and theres no way he could have translated it.

BL, this is the laziest, stupidest crap I've ever seen you do. I demand to know what book that is, and who wrote it.
I will avoid that author forever.

This is much the problem with lots of 40k lore, and why it should be viewed as Fantasy in Space rather than as SciFi.

You'll get huge variations in marine "power level" based not only on author but protagonist as well. You'll get someone like Abnett who has a squad of Chaos Space Marines die to lasguns with a single power sword and poison darts in one story, dreadnoughts destroyed by exploding lasgun packs and poison darts in another, and then Space Marines that slay literally thousands of Dark Eldar in close quarters combat with nary a scratch in another story.

don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).
i agree however that a chapter would usually not engage in a planetary assault on their own, at least with any intention of holding ground. space marines would hit points of weakness with lightning strikes and rely on guardsmen to hold ground, provide artillery and mass tank support and keep the enemy pinned.

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

a chapter serf in the Caiaphas Cain novel the emperors finest commanded a strike cruiser and had the title ship master, while the company captain had the final say in regard to operation the ship master still had command autonomy from the space marines. a agree however that space marine chapters generally have a large degree of autonomy and generally run things as they please.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

Don't remember exactly so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Alpha Legion using a lot of non-Astartes operatives for Intel purposes pre-HH?

Vandire651 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

a chapter serf in the Caiaphas Cain novel the emperors finest commanded a strike cruiser and had the title ship master, while the company captain had the final say in regard to operation the ship master still had command autonomy from the space marines. a agree however that space marine chapters generally have a large degree of autonomy and generally run things as they please.

Hrm, I haven't read that book yet, but that's interesting.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

Don't remember exactly so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Alpha Legion using a lot of non-Astartes operatives for Intel purposes pre-HH?

I think so but I can't recall exactly, though the Alpha Legion was always rather atypical and very differentiated in their methods relative to other marine forces.

 Vandire651 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Vandire651 wrote:
don't chapters have entire divisions of chapter serfs to take care of things like Intel, crewing and commanding ships and maintaining the marines Armour and weapons.(serfs in charge of maintenance are called artificers, source night lord trilogy).

Sort of? In theory yes they're there and do lots of tasks. It depends a lot on the author and chapter in question.While they may crew ships, they don't command them (at least as far as I can recall they're always commanded by a Space Marines) and their role in maintenance of SM weapons and armor appears variable (again, depending on author and chapter), and I've never heard of them being used in any intel capacity aside from pre-Heresy Space Wolves to a minor extent.

a chapter serf in the Caiaphas Cain novel the emperors finest commanded a strike cruiser and had the title ship master, while the company captain had the final say in regard to operation the ship master still had command autonomy from the space marines. a agree however that space marine chapters generally have a large degree of autonomy and generally run things as they please.

It was the same in the HH Comic - Macragge's Honour.

Well, of course serfs command Space Marine ships.

Commanding a battle barge does not require any Space Marine enhancements. Space Marines are far more valuable on the ground doing Space Marine things.

Space Marines are supposed to be a little pragmatic about their limited numbers and the capabilities of humans, after all, even if only an iota.

If anyone wants to see how much even a few space marines can through a fight, play Spacemarine on xbox 360 or ps3

Three Marines with a little help from IG manage to save an entire forge world and basically break the back of two invading armies before the real reinforcements even arrive. In the Fluff a squad of marines can change the outcome of a battle, a whole chapter would end the war in many cases.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If anyone wants to see how much even a few space marines can through a fight, play Spacemarine on xbox 360 or ps3

Three Marines with a little help from IG manage to save an entire forge world and basically break the back of two invading armies before the real reinforcements even arrive. In the Fluff a squad of marines can change the outcome of a battle, a whole chapter would end the war in many cases.

The same game where your single marine slays a hundred+ other marines and kills a Daemon Prince by punching it do death?

By the same token we can use the game Fire Warrior to show how a single Tau soldier fights through all sorts of Marines, Obliterators, Daemon Princes, etc.

video games like that are really bad metrics to use.

 Vaktathi wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If anyone wants to see how much even a few space marines can through a fight, play Spacemarine on xbox 360 or ps3

Three Marines with a little help from IG manage to save an entire forge world and basically break the back of two invading armies before the real reinforcements even arrive. In the Fluff a squad of marines can change the outcome of a battle, a whole chapter would end the war in many cases.

The same game where your single marine slays a hundred+ other marines and kills a Daemon Prince by punching it do death?

By the same token we can use the game Fire Warrior to show how a single Tau soldier fights through all sorts of Marines, Obliterators, Daemon Princes, etc.

video games like that are really bad metrics to use.

To be fair, Space Marine is actually really sensible for the most part. Keep in mind you only ever fight three or four CSM at the same time, tops, and by that time you are a Captain fully stocked with power weapon/thunder hammer, iron halo, plasma/melta, etc.

He could probably pull that off even on the tabletop!

As for the Daemon Prince, he killed it in the middle of its transformation, when it was at its most vulnerable, and it still took a lot of shooting, chopping with chainsword, and so on to actually defeat it.

They are good for fanbois making "pew pew" noises. That's about it.

Martel732 wrote:
They are good for fanbois making "pew pew" noises. That's about it.

Well you evidently find them good enough, because you play them and you have spent large amounts of money and time on them.

Space Marines' true value is in shock 'n awe. While they are more than capable of ending wars on their own via their famous Deep Striking capabilities, they could easily get encircled and destroyed (as previously mentioned) there aren't even close to enough of them to hold ground (as previously mentioned), and they are far too few to actually make a difference to the galaxy at large. However, they are regarded as the Emperor's Angels, and the morale boost of having Space Marines on your side, as an Imperial Guardsmen, would be akin to having a Spartan on your side in Halo. Not to mention the fact that actual Marine weaponry is more effective in its capacity to terrify a foe than actually killing them (not that it isn't capable of doing so).

It was a bog standard rail shooter. Not a bad one, I had fun with it, but if we're using it as particular evidence of anything, it's rather weak. The game mechanics that allow one to fight through all those hordes of enemies (such as convenient health pickups that heal all wounds instantly) and shooting down heavily armored Blight Drones with bolters, etc, are just that, game mechanics, to say nothing of AI sillyness.

To see it as an accurate representation of what a single, largely unsupported Space Marine, even a Captain, could achieve is more than a bit of a stretch.