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2015/10/19 17:44:22
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Vaktathi wrote: It was a bog standard rail shooter. Not a bad one, I had fun with it, but if we're using it as particular evidence of anything, it's rather weak. The game mechanics that allow one to fight through all those hordes of enemies (such as convenient health pickups that heal all wounds instantly) and shooting down heavily armored Blight Drones with bolters, etc, are just that, game mechanics, to say nothing of AI sillyness.
To see it as an accurate representation of what a single, largely unsupported Space Marine, even a Captain, could achieve is more than a bit of a stretch.
The CSM AI was dumb, for sure. They fought like vegetables.
The Ork AI was spot on.
There are no pickups in the game, short of ammo and grenades, which is sensible. I assume you refer to the executions? The developers shifted your character's durability from passive to active, so you actually take a fairly high amount of damage from fairly mundane things, but you can restore it by taking risks. Better gameplay, but same end result.
As for the Blight Drones, keep in mind they were a lot smaller in Space Marine than their models are. And I mean a lot. In SM they were like flying Nobz, whereas in 40k they are like flying Dreadnoughts. Most likely representing a lighter variant.
I consider Space Marine entirely sensible... Or well, it would be with a few AI tweaks.
Actually the small number of Space Marines is much less of a problem than some make it out to be. The fact that there are billions and billions of Guardsmen and that the Imperial Guard always deploys huge numbers of men is pure fan fiction. Going of GW fluff, the number of Guardsmen is really low. The very largest campaigns, such as those on Armageddon see the deployment of a few million guardsman. To put it in perspective, the Red Army in WW2 deployed more men than the Imperial Guard did in all three Wars on Armageddon combined. The vast majority of engagements in the fluff however are fought by no more than 5 regiments (50.000 men at most) or even single regiments (10.000 men at most). In that perspective, the deployment of even 100 Space Marines is quite significant,
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/19 18:04:27
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2015/10/19 18:05:43
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: They are good for fanbois making "pew pew" noises. That's about it.
Well you evidently find them good enough, because you play them and you have spent large amounts of money and time on them.
Ammortized over 20 years, mind you. In any given year, my budget for GW is not even in my top 5. Obviously given what I know, I would have never selected a marine army. I really, really hate the Astartes as a concept and I hate the implementation in the table top game even more.
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Iron_Captain wrote: Actually the small number of Space Marines is much less of a problem than some make it out to be. The fact that there are billions and billions of Guardsmen and that the Imperial Guard always deploys huge numbers of men is pure fan fiction.
Going of GW fluff, the number of Guardsmen is really low. The very largest campaigns, such as those on Armageddon see the deployment of a few million guardsman.
To put it in perspective, the Red Army in WW2 deployed more men than the Imperial Guard did in all three Wars on Armageddon combined.
The vast majority of engagements in the fluff however are fought by no more than 5 regiments (50.000 men at most) or even single regiments (10.000 men at most).
In that perspective, the deployment of even 100 Space Marines is quite significant,
But that's not how planetary level conflict would be waged. Billions and billions of guardsmen would actually be too small of a force for something the size of the IoM. The numbers GW have cooked up are laughable, and so I ignore them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 18:07:30
2015/10/19 18:08:24
Subject: Re:So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
I think that Space marine represented what a space marine captain would look like in the fluff and surprisingly also on the table top. Like it was said previously you never fight more than three four CSM and some lost and dammed. A captain armed with a bolt gun, power axe, plasma pistol and a melta gun would kill a lot of things.
2015/10/19 18:15:36
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: They are good for fanbois making "pew pew" noises. That's about it.
Well you evidently find them good enough, because you play them and you have spent large amounts of money and time on them.
Ammortized over 20 years, mind you. In any given year, my budget for GW is not even in my top 5. Obviously given what I know, I would have never selected a marine army. I really, really hate the Astartes as a concept and I hate the implementation in the table top game even more.
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Iron_Captain wrote: Actually the small number of Space Marines is much less of a problem than some make it out to be. The fact that there are billions and billions of Guardsmen and that the Imperial Guard always deploys huge numbers of men is pure fan fiction.
Going of GW fluff, the number of Guardsmen is really low. The very largest campaigns, such as those on Armageddon see the deployment of a few million guardsman.
To put it in perspective, the Red Army in WW2 deployed more men than the Imperial Guard did in all three Wars on Armageddon combined.
The vast majority of engagements in the fluff however are fought by no more than 5 regiments (50.000 men at most) or even single regiments (10.000 men at most).
In that perspective, the deployment of even 100 Space Marines is quite significant,
But that's not how planetary level conflict would be waged. Billions and billions of guardsmen would actually be too small of a force for something the size of the IoM. The numbers GW have cooked up are laughable, and so I ignore them.
Very true. GW authors, and most other science fiction authors too, have no sense of scale. But if you ignore the ridiculously low IG numbers, you'd have to ignore the ridiculously low SM numbers too.
Alternatively you could just accept conflicts in the 40th milennium just are much smaller in scale than WW2.
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2015/10/19 18:20:11
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
I ignore both of them. However, even millions of space marines would be too few to influence a conflict on a galactic scale. It would be too easy to obliterate entire chapters with orbital bombardment, for example. The CONCEPT of the space marine is unworkable. As opposed to Terran marines from Starcraft where EVERYONE gets power armor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 18:20:54
2015/10/19 18:34:26
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: I ignore both of them. However, even millions of space marines would be too few to influence a conflict on a galactic scale. It would be too easy to obliterate entire chapters with orbital bombardment, for example. The CONCEPT of the space marine is unworkable. As opposed to Terran marines from Starcraft where EVERYONE gets power armor.
You could wipe out an entire army of Starcraft marines just the same with an orbital bombardment. The thing is that you don't use orbital bombardements because by destroying the planet you are eliminating the entire reason for the war. You fight a war for control over a planet. You fight over a planet because its infrastructure is valuable. If you destroy that, there is no reason to fight. Besides that, Space Marines have space ships. You are likely not even going to be able to do an orbital bombardment. And thirdly, if you ignore everything, why are you in the background forum?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 18:35:02
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2015/10/19 18:36:26
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
argonak wrote: Ok. So consider this situation. I'm an Imperial Guard officer, highest ranking on a planet, defending against an Ork invasion. It's a major planet and a major invasion force.
Its unlikely that you survived past the first few minutes, but carry on.
Assume I have around 10 million soldiers under arms defending the one major continent. The ork invasion has a similar amount.
K.
I put out the call for help and its my lucky day. A strike cruiser of Ultramarines shows up with a company sized force.
Prepare Uranus.
But what are they . . . good for? Do I turn over command? Do I remain in command? Do I use them as just another elite strike unit? Do they go do their own thing? How do they make any sort of. . . concrete helpful in this sort of a situation?
Well, they're the interplanetary hitmen, designed to cut off the enemy's power at the source. Step 1: Depose the current allied leader, and call him incompetent. Step 2: Trash talk the allied forces. Step 3: Fight for five minutes in one firefight in one building in one city on one planet. Step 4: Run off to the strike cruiser, and wait for the expendable humans to do all the work. Step 5: Report to Ultramar for badges, medals, cake and space bitches. Step 6: All the gloreh is yawz.
I'm thinking back to when I used to play Epic, and marines were generally just a small unit of elite troops that could go grab an objective or knock out an enemy force. But even then I was usually using almost a company sized force of them! And then they'd take heavy casualties.
This is exactly why the SM shouldn't be a line force. Hitmen, yea. The main offensive? Sod off.
So what exactly, are space marines good for? Everyone loves having them around, but how much help are they really?
And I'm not trying to troll, just trying to start an interesting conversation.
2015/10/19 18:37:24
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Space Marines don't need to exfiltrate a captured enemy commander to learn what he knows. They just crack his skull open and eat his brain. Now, they know what he knew. They also learn genetic weaknesses of the foe and the like ("Hey, these Xenos are especially combustible... flamers for everyone!").
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/10/19 19:28:46
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: I ignore both of them. However, even millions of space marines would be too few to influence a conflict on a galactic scale. It would be too easy to obliterate entire chapters with orbital bombardment, for example. The CONCEPT of the space marine is unworkable. As opposed to Terran marines from Starcraft where EVERYONE gets power armor.
You could wipe out an entire army of Starcraft marines just the same with an orbital bombardment. The thing is that you don't use orbital bombardements because by destroying the planet you are eliminating the entire reason for the war. You fight a war for control over a planet. You fight over a planet because its infrastructure is valuable. If you destroy that, there is no reason to fight.
Besides that, Space Marines have space ships. You are likely not even going to be able to do an orbital bombardment.
And thirdly, if you ignore everything, why are you in the background forum?
Sure, but Starcraft marines are super-expendable. Astartes aren't. One could just as easily substitute in nuclear land mines or any other WMD vs the Astartes. I'd trade a chunk of a planet to wipe out irreplaceable super-troops in a heart beat. Orbital bombardment in particular can be done with non-radioactive methods, leaving no permanent damage. It's arguable whether planetary infrastructure is valuable or not. Sometimes you just want the location. Or, in this case, you want irreplaceable super soldiers dead.
The title of the thread was too irresistible. I'm not usually in the background section.
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Psienesis wrote: Space Marines don't need to exfiltrate a captured enemy commander to learn what he knows. They just crack his skull open and eat his brain. Now, they know what he knew. They also learn genetic weaknesses of the foe and the like ("Hey, these Xenos are especially combustible... flamers for everyone!").
There is no way that would work on a Xeno. It's doubtful Xenos even use the same amino acids, and so the proteins wouldn't be compatible in any way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 19:29:39
2015/10/19 19:34:52
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
"You fight over a planet because its infrastructure is valuable"
One more detail on that: I frequently was willing to sacrifice an entire planet's infrastructure in a game like Master of Orion in to be rid of the native population, so I didn't have to deal with them. And then fill the planet up with my own population that was far more loyal.
2015/10/19 19:57:09
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Vaktathi wrote: It was a bog standard rail shooter. Not a bad one, I had fun with it, but if we're using it as particular evidence of anything, it's rather weak. The game mechanics that allow one to fight through all those hordes of enemies (such as convenient health pickups that heal all wounds instantly) and shooting down heavily armored Blight Drones with bolters, etc, are just that, game mechanics, to say nothing of AI sillyness.
To see it as an accurate representation of what a single, largely unsupported Space Marine, even a Captain, could achieve is more than a bit of a stretch.
The CSM AI was dumb, for sure. They fought like vegetables.
The Ork AI was spot on.
There are no pickups in the game, short of ammo and grenades, which is sensible. I assume you refer to the executions? The developers shifted your character's durability from passive to active, so you actually take a fairly high amount of damage from fairly mundane things, but you can restore it by taking risks. Better gameplay, but same end result.
As for the Blight Drones, keep in mind they were a lot smaller in Space Marine than their models are. And I mean a lot. In SM they were like flying Nobz, whereas in 40k they are like flying Dreadnoughts. Most likely representing a lighter variant.
I consider Space Marine entirely sensible... Or well, it would be with a few AI tweaks.
Eh, I an maybe buy the Ork AI being allright, but even then, just the layout of the engagements is stnadard rail shooter, it's pretty much "go down this helpfully pre-defined path where no deviation is possible, fight stuff at scripted points along the way, have pickups where needed conveniently after major scripted engagements, etc", and fights like with the Warboss were not really free-flowing fights but scripted events with specific attacks made at specific times (if the Warboss was controlled by a human player, there's no way anyone could beat that event). It's hard to take it seriously, especially if we're not taking Fire Warrior as a similarly accurate source.
Iron_Captain wrote: Actually the small number of Space Marines is much less of a problem than some make it out to be. The fact that there are billions and billions of Guardsmen and that the Imperial Guard always deploys huge numbers of men is pure fan fiction.
Going of GW fluff, the number of Guardsmen is really low. The very largest campaigns, such as those on Armageddon see the deployment of a few million guardsman.
Yes, the earlier stuff was very poor in regards to numbers. However GW apparently have realized that and more recent fluff has much more realistic numbers in use, referring to guard regiments numbering in the "billions" in post 3E stuff.
dusara217 wrote: Techmarines don't hack into gak in the novels because most novels are 90% Bolter porn. It's not like it's anything that's outside the abilities of people who spend centuries building machines, maintaining cogitators (aka computers), etc.
It's still not something I can recall ever being attributed to them.
Spoiler:
Maintaining tanks/aircraft is greatly assisted by an army of Chapter Serfs, Power Armour is maintained by its wearer (from what I've read in the Space Wolf Omnibus, Blood Angels Omnibus, and every Horus Heresy book ever written), starship engines and Gellar fields are mostly maintained by the legions of Chapter Serfs (it's quite similar to an actual Navy ship, in that the crew do 90% of the work), recovering Drop Pods would be done by aircraft pilots, building fortifications can easily be handled by ordinary Space Marines, or Chapter Serfs under the supervision of Space Marines, and most things are done by Chapter Serfs (that's literally the entire reason Chapter Serfs exist).
There are examples of all of these being undertaken by Techmarines. Yes, much maintenance is done by Serfs, not all of it, especially crafting of new parts and repairing of major damage. Terrain fortification is a direct mechanic of techmarines in a gameplay function, much the same way Librarians are the only ones with psychic powers and a Chaplain the only unit that grants Zealot, which suggests the fortification is a major function of theirs. Drop Pod recovery and refurbishment is explicitely noted as being a Techmarine function in several places.
I direct you, once again, good sir, to the magic of Chapter Serfs. Figuring out who it's going to is as simple as reading the address, who's sending same thing, what value it has is as simple as reading it (seriously, dude, do you even logic?).
Do we have any evidence that Serfs are routinely used in such a fashion? I can recall SW's kinda of doing so pre-heresy in one book, but that's about it.
Likewise, speaking of "dude, logic", just because you intercept a transmission doesn't mean you have any idea where it's heading, who it's going to, what's being discussed, or anything else. Even if you break encryption, there's all sorts of stuff to muddle through in deciphering transmissions. Codewords, organization specific lingo, order of battle, and hundreds of others things have to be deciphered, in addition to simple context.
"Come in Echo Niner Charlie, this is Velvet, requesting delivery of Ivory at seven seven three dash four and with an extra fin"
Is that a field recon unit calling to an artillery battery for a barrage with a specific set of coordinates, an agent calling for extraction, a guard post calling for dinner? Interpretation and analysis of transmissions is not just as easy as reading them.
or for example, stations UVB-76, a radio broadcast that people have been listening to for decades, but nobody has any idea what it's transmitting, as 99% of the time it just broadcasts a repeating buss tone, then once in a while random stuff like this gets sent out.
People have been listening to this station for many years. Despite being constantly recorded, nobody has any idea what it does, who is broadcasting it or who it's sending to, aside from that fact that it's in Russia somewhere and is likely (but not certainly) military in nature.
Not to mention the fact that Space Marines spending 95% of conflicts acting alongside Imperial Guard.
Hrm, maybe? Many chapters do not. Of those that do, they don't always have much interaction with other Imperial forces. Look at the Dark Angels on Vraks. They come in, blow up the space port, take a bunch of casualties, and leave. They send all of like two sentences worth of transmissions to the IG, don't fight anywhere near them, and just do their thing and leave. The majority of SM fluff certainly doesn't include operating alongside the Guard 95% of the time, especially not in any sort of close capacity.
So, what, you're saying incapacitating an enemy commander is really outside the capabilities of a Librarian? Seriously?
No, I'm saying that they have to *find* that someone and capture them alive. The SM's may not have any idea what an enemy commander looks like or where they might be or how they might operate or any number of other factors at play.
Or, let's say that its pre-battle. It's really outside the capabilities of [virtually] invisible Scouts to capture an enemy commander while he's taking a dump or something?
If we're talking any sort of capable opponent practicing halfway competent security procedures, if we're talking any sort of senior level commander, that's probably a very tough job to carry out. Scouts aren't ultra ninjas They're 7 foot tall ultra bulky dudes weighing ~350-600 pounds in heavy (even if not power) armor with some fancy cloaks (cloaks that other Imperial forces also have access to) and the guys with the least experience to boot.
ow do you know who has the information? Look at a commander. A sergeant, even, would work.
How do you know who is who, particularly if you haven't engaged this enemy before? In the heat of battle when all that may be differentiating them is some collar pips, or if they're a Xenos race that doesn't function the way human armies do, that's a rather tough gig, and that's assuming you know where they are in the first place. How does one distinguish a Tau Shas'ui from a basic Shas'la in a Fire Warrior squad?
Hell, you could just eat the brains of a grunt and gain rudimentary knowledge of enemy troop movements and strategies.
Maybe for a particular local area or that grunt's part of a particular operation, but you're not going to get much operational level, much less strategic level, information from someone like that. You're not just going to grab a grunt and suddenly know their entire order of battle, command locations, communications protocols, etc.
There are thousands of officers and NCOs, it seems like a nonissue.
Against a familiar foe once engaged in open battle? Sure, but the point is that *getting* to that point the Space Marines are in many instances hopping in blind.
First objection is a legitimate issue. Second part is not. The Scouts, what with their camo cloaks, and all, would be more than capable if infiltrating said encampment, observing (and/or kindapping) the enemy commander, poisoning camp food/water supplies, blowing up enemy munition caches, etc. all without being seen.
As I noted in a previous post, Camo cloaks are not perfect cloaking devices that nobody has any counter to. Lots of Guard units have access to cameloline gear, and no description I've ever seen of it states tht it has any effect on thermal or IR imaging, motion detection, etc, nor that it provides anything near perfect invisibility. Sure, the scouts can operate as something akin to an infiltration commando force, but so can other, much less physically impressive, forces like Tanith guardsmen and the like.
Astartes Chapters were not designed to work solo. They were originally intended to work alongside Imperial Army Intelligence units (as seen in Legion), and "modern" chapters spend 90% of their time working in conjunction with Imperial Guard and similar outfits.
I would agree that they're not designed to work solo, but the problem is that they're routinely portrayed as doing so, and even when they're fighting the same enemies as other Imperial forces, they often have very little interactivity with them, with information often having to pass through multiple channels and agencies to go between the Guard, Inquisition, PDF, Navy and Space Marines.
Also, you seem to have, once again, forgotten the magic of Chapter Serfs. Do you really think that it would be impossible to train a Chapter Serf in basic intelligence gathering? Monitering enemy radio/vox chatter? Really?
I don't think it's impossible, but it's not something that I can recall ever having been described or discussed in any form outside of a single Horus Heresy novel, at least that I can directly recall. There just isn't any evidence of their use in such a role. They're typically described as personal servants, gun crews, scribes, medical assistants, cooks, mechanics, etc, and their value and use varies *highly* depending on chapter, as some may treat them as near equals and others as mere slaves.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/10/19 20:11:59
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Depending on the enemy. A single strike on hq may cripple it due to nature of organisation they use.
Orks yes, chaos I see possible. Jelous rebel who distrusts all may centre there power. Plus part is fear that the marines can hot anywhere, despite how deep or seemingly secure
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2015/10/19 20:51:10
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Vaktathi wrote: Eh, I an maybe buy the Ork AI being allright, but even then, just the layout of the engagements is stnadard rail shooter, it's pretty much "go down this helpfully pre-defined path where no deviation is possible, fight stuff at scripted points along the way, have pickups where needed conveniently after major scripted engagements, etc"
All those are gameplay implementations. From an in character perspective, Titus didn't consider his story railroad - he just never saw a reason to deviate from his chosen path to each objective.
and fights like with the Warboss were not really free-flowing fights but scripted events with specific attacks made at specific times (if the Warboss was controlled by a human player, there's no way anyone could beat that event). It's hard to take it seriously, especially if we're not taking Fire Warrior as a similarly accurate source.
The Warboss had 3 attacks (klaw slam, charge, shoota barrage), all of which you dodge because you are faster than he is. I think a human player might have made it harder simply because he'd be less predictable (and would probably spam whichever attack is strongest, as well) but the Warboss acted like an in-universe Warboss would, not like a human wanting to maximise his numbers would, which is all as it should be.
FW is also significantly more old.
Yes, the earlier stuff was very poor in regards to numbers. However GW apparently have realized that and more recent fluff has much more realistic numbers in use, referring to guard regiments numbering in the "billions" in post 3E stuff.
I remember Vraks being especially egregious in that regard, but isn't V2 Vraks fairly new?
Vaktathi wrote: It was a bog standard rail shooter. Not a bad one, I had fun with it, but if we're using it as particular evidence of anything, it's rather weak. The game mechanics that allow one to fight through all those hordes of enemies (such as convenient health pickups that heal all wounds instantly) and shooting down heavily armored Blight Drones with bolters, etc, are just that, game mechanics, to say nothing of AI sillyness.
To see it as an accurate representation of what a single, largely unsupported Space Marine, even a Captain, could achieve is more than a bit of a stretch.
Not trying to be super nit picky but its not a Rail Shooter but a 3rd Person Shooter (with elements of a spectacle fighter like God of War). Rail Shooter is what you see in those arcade cabinets with the light guns. Also if you play the game on the hardest difficulty then it might reflect what a single space marine captain can do.... if you can beat it in one go without dying and somehow had health regeneration turned off (shield regen on assuming the Captain's force field from a shield generator/iron halo works somewhat like that). Dying once ends the story so if you can pull that off then that's probably the odds of a space marine captain pulling that off.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
2015/10/19 21:35:26
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Vaktathi wrote: Eh, I an maybe buy the Ork AI being allright, but even then, just the layout of the engagements is stnadard rail shooter, it's pretty much "go down this helpfully pre-defined path where no deviation is possible, fight stuff at scripted points along the way, have pickups where needed conveniently after major scripted engagements, etc"
All those are gameplay implementations. From an in character perspective, Titus didn't consider his story railroad - he just never saw a reason to deviate from his chosen path to each objective.
Right, but it's not a realistic representation of what any sort of actual combat would really look like, it's all rail-shooter mechanics, enemies can only appear from certain areas and at certain times, only a relatively limited array of foes appear (you don't fight Killa Kans, Defilers, Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Predator Tanks, Traitor Russ Tanks or Sentinels, etc), weapons that would indisputably normally outright kill (or at least incapacitate) even a Space Marine captain (like a Lascannon or Rokkit) just tick off HP instead and don't leave them a blasted smear or incapacitated in any way (the game has no way to deal with armor degradation, limbs being blown off, etc), the player character is physically limited in where they can actually move, and trying to equate it with an accurate representation of a 40k battle is a stretch as a result.
The Warboss had 3 attacks (klaw slam, charge, shoota barrage), all of which you dodge because you are faster than he is. I think a human player might have made it harder simply because he'd be less predictable (and would probably spam whichever attack is strongest, as well) but the Warboss acted like an in-universe Warboss would, not like a human wanting to maximise his numbers would, which is all as it should be.
The attacks are all the same, they have reasonably spaced & regulated timing, he pretty much just charges in a straight line and turns around and shoots his gun and doesn't actually engaged in a typical "melee" fight, none of the other orks attempt to grapple or pin or do anything but swing an axe every few seconds, the warboss retreats to the overhangs to shoot a bit at scripted points, etc. It's a pretty scripted "puzzle" boss fight.
FW is also significantly more old.
Aye, it also wasn't nearly as fun as Space Marine was, but ultimately the same lessons apply
I remember Vraks being especially egregious in that regard, but isn't V2 Vraks fairly new?
Vraks I don't think was particularly off on its numbers. It involved millions of guardsmen and was a titanic war all by itself by out standards, but was always presented as a small sideshow of a war that played 2nd fiddle to the needs of other conflicts.
Vaktathi wrote: It was a bog standard rail shooter. Not a bad one, I had fun with it, but if we're using it as particular evidence of anything, it's rather weak. The game mechanics that allow one to fight through all those hordes of enemies (such as convenient health pickups that heal all wounds instantly) and shooting down heavily armored Blight Drones with bolters, etc, are just that, game mechanics, to say nothing of AI sillyness.
To see it as an accurate representation of what a single, largely unsupported Space Marine, even a Captain, could achieve is more than a bit of a stretch.
Not trying to be super nit picky but its not a Rail Shooter but a 3rd Person Shooter (with elements of a spectacle fighter like God of War). Rail Shooter is what you see in those arcade cabinets with the light guns.
I may have my terminology mixed up, but I've heard the term applied to a number of shooters like Space Marine. The Duke Nukem 3D vs Duke Nukem Forever example is perfect where one game has sort of an entire area available for the character to roam around in while the other has a very clearly defined advancement "path".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/19 21:49:05
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/10/19 21:49:10
Subject: Re:So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
HoundsofDemos wrote: If anyone wants to see how much even a few space marines can through a fight, play Spacemarine on xbox 360 or ps3
Three Marines with a little help from IG manage to save an entire forge world and basically break the back of two invading armies before the real reinforcements even arrive. In the Fluff a squad of marines can change the outcome of a battle, a whole chapter would end the war in many cases.
Then why cant 2 (?) chapters on Armageddon turn the tide even after Ghazzy left?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 21:49:49
More to the point, the 3rd war for Armageddon involved something like a dozen chapters, totaling a few thousand marines + support structures and armouries.
Still locked in permanent war.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a BT crusade, headed by Helbrecht and Grimaldus. Looking at Helsreach, while there is a fair bit of bolter porn, even Grimaldus has a damn hard time keeping the greenskins down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 21:52:36
2015/10/19 22:40:16
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
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Vaktathi wrote: Right, but it's not a realistic representation of what any sort of actual combat would really look like, it's all rail-shooter mechanics, enemies can only appear from certain areas and at certain times, only a relatively limited array of foes appear (you don't fight Killa Kans, Defilers, Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Predator Tanks, Traitor Russ Tanks or Sentinels, etc), weapons that would indisputably normally outright kill (or at least incapacitate) even a Space Marine captain (like a Lascannon or Rokkit) just tick off HP instead and don't leave them a blasted smear or incapacitated in any way (the game has no way to deal with armor degradation, limbs being blown off, etc), the player character is physically limited in where they can actually move, and trying to equate it with an accurate representation of a 40k battle is a stretch as a result.
Lascannons and rokkits both actually deal high damage. In single player, you will always have the Iron Halo when you face lascannons (needless to say that makes their job harder) but in multiplayer the lascannon is pretty much always a oneshot or twoshot. There is also nothing indisputable about that. Remember the setting you are debating, here.
There's no degradation... But there's no proper use of cover, either. Not everything is in the player's favour.
The attacks are all the same, they have reasonably spaced & regulated timing, he pretty much just charges in a straight line and turns around and shoots his gun and doesn't actually engaged in a typical "melee" fight, none of the other orks attempt to grapple or pin or do anything but swing an axe every few seconds, the warboss retreats to the overhangs to shoot a bit at scripted points, etc. It's a pretty scripted "puzzle" boss fight.
Uh... The Nobz DO grapple. Have you ever tried to fight them in melee?
They grab you, ram you into the floor, and try to stomp on your face (which Titus understandably rolls out of the way from).
Vraks I don't think was particularly off on its numbers. It involved millions of guardsmen and was a titanic war all by itself by out standards, but was always presented as a small sideshow of a war that played 2nd fiddle to the needs of other conflicts.
It was a war with several millions of each side, but it was a PLANETARY war. Isn't 'millions' very low?
For more Space Marine fun (though I think I have linked this one several times before):
I remember solokilling 1,000 Orks and IG by soloing the first, second and part of the third arena of Chaos Invasion, though I didn't record that one.
CSM are seriously mean.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/19 22:44:07
Lascannons and rokkits both actually deal high damage. In single player, you will always have the Iron Halo when you face lascannons (needless to say that makes their job harder) but in multiplayer the lascannon is pretty much always a oneshot or twoshot. There is also nothing indisputable about that. Remember the setting you are debating, here.
Right, but ulitmately, you can take the lascannon hit and fight as if nothing was wrong with zero degradation of ability or armor damage (i.e. there's no gaping melted hole in the armor) and reset your health to full a short time later.
There's no degradation... But there's no proper use of cover, either. Not everything is in the player's favour.
no, but it is heavily in their favor, and the AI isn't exactly using cover spectacularly either. If you played the game with real minds controlling all of the combatants (if you watch things like shoota boyz and guardsmen, you'll often see them tracking the player but only shooting once every few seconds, while standing completely still in the open and miss like crazy) and health & shields that didn't regenerate, it wouldn't be beatable.
Uh... The Nobz DO grapple. Have you ever tried to fight them in melee?
They grab you, ram you into the floor, and try to stomp on your face (which Titus understandably rolls out of the way from).
The basic boyz in the warboss encounter do not however, which was what I was getting at, they just kinda run around and swing a choppa every few seconds and that's about it. Very rudimentary AI designed to look real enough but not actually be real (as otherwise the game would be impossible).
It was a war with several millions of each side, but it was a PLANETARY war. Isn't 'millions' very low?
The planet only had a pre-war population of like 8 million people or so and there was really only one population center, it was basically a massive war fought in an area the size of the LA metro area basically with the rest of the planet being almost entirely empty and a couple of space engagements.
For more Space Marine fun (though I think I have linked this one several times before):
I remember solokilling 1,000 Orks and IG by soloing the first, second and part of the third arena of Chaos Invasion, though I didn't record that one.
CSM are seriously mean.
It's certainly fun, can't deny that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 23:21:54
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
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2015/10/20 00:11:31
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: "You fight over a planet because its infrastructure is valuable"
One more detail on that: I frequently was willing to sacrifice an entire planet's infrastructure in a game like Master of Orion in to be rid of the native population, so I didn't have to deal with them. And then fill the planet up with my own population that was far more loyal.
You shoulda just played telepaths, they had no trouble subjugating conquered populations!
Most strategy games I play you're fighting over 1 of 3 things (sometimes more than one): Resources, infrastructure, population. Best thing is to get all 3 though! Some games reward you more for some of 3 than they probably ought to. its best when its balanced.
So it sounds like everyone kind of agrees that Space Marines are best used in commando style strikes? It fits with most of their early fluff. Drop in via drop pod, blast the heck out of somebody, fly away in a thunderhawk.
2015/10/20 02:58:34
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
From a realistic military standpoint, the space marine chapters are more or less useless to fight interplanetary wars with yeah. The legions not so much because of their vast size they had real practicality.
But 40k isn't meant to be realistic, and we're meant to accept that a hundred marines can conquer a whole planet
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2015/10/20 04:22:20
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
I'd say the most powerful advantage of SM is that they work independently and can ignore a lot of the red tape that bogs down Imperial institutions. If they can handle something alone they do so, if not they'll send in a report - and having Astartes seals on it might mean it goes through the paper piles a bit faster. Quick response and evaluation of situations.
A Chapter in the right place also means the IoM doesn't have to station naval assets there, saving those resources for something else.
2015/10/20 07:20:11
Subject: So, what are Space Marines good for. . . really?
Martel732 wrote: "we're meant to accept that a hundred marines can conquer a whole planet"
Except they wouldn't remotely be able to do that.
I agree they wouldn't be able to take and hold whatsoever.
I think where this comes from is that, for example, imagine an Imperial Planet has refused to pay its tithes. The Space Marines (100 of them) drop into key locations, eliminate government buildings/personnel and cut the head off of the planet's leadership. The planet then accedes to Imperial Authority.
The 100 marines 'conquered' the planet and brought it back into Imperial Control but they didn't fight over every inch of ground, not even close. It really depends on the planet involved and the type of problem the marines have to deal with.
Everyone loves having them around, but how much help are they really?
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