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 Bottle wrote:
Yep, I have fun with AoS but I see this attitude in their lack of gaming support on their website and in White Dwarf. They need to make the game the focal point again and I think lots will agree with that regardless if you like AoS or not.

Absolutely. And I think that's a large part of the immediate distaste that some people met the game with... This really came across as a poorly thought out patch job, rather than a serious game offering.

Specific game mechanics issues aside (as they're going to always largely be a matter of personal preference) I strongly suspect that if GW had presented AoS as an alternate way to use your WHFB minis, it would have been met with much more positivity. There still would have been those cynics who would have seen it as just a cash grab, but for the most part I think it would have been met with the same sort of reaction as 40K in 40 minutes was... as a fun new way to play smaller, faster games with your existing collection.

I don't think the game is terrible for what it is in its own right... It's just as the spiritual successor to WHFB that it's so very, very bad.

And as a standalone game, it's lost in the sea of other, better, skirmish games.


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 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
Second, I don't think GW has ever supported their specialist games. Blood Bowl is the only one that I remember seeing any supplements for (I admit that I wasn't paying super close attention, but my comic book shop has carried GW stuff for a while). My guess is that there is a certain amount of manpower and time associated with supporting games for years and years, and they could support one game, like Blood Bowl, or they could continually create new games with those resources. I think keeping the specialist line as a bunch of one-and-done games isn't a terrible strategy, though I'm sure it is frustrating to have to buy a new version of Space Hulk every ten years.

You are wrong. GW did support their specialist games quite well. If I go through my roommate's bookshelf I'll find plenty of articles about them, as well as lots of new releases. Inquisitor had it's own shelf in GW stores with the whole line on offer once upon a time. Epic 40k for Emperor's sake was their 3rd core game before LotR. The support stopped one day and that is why specialist games slowly died.

Not to mention that at one point all of the Specialist games had their own periodic magazines introducing new content. Some of them didn't last long due to lack of interest, but GW did most certainly put in the effort.

I admit that I could be wrong about the Specialist Games. I didn't pay much attention to GW at the time, though I do remember seeing the Inquisitor models as well as a box for Mordheim. I just don't remember them as being much of a line of games with a bunch of releases. If they were, it's possible that my comic book shop simply didn't stock them.

 insaniak wrote:
Absolutely. And I think that's a large part of the immediate distaste that some people met the game with... This really came across as a poorly thought out patch job, rather than a serious game offering.

Specific game mechanics issues aside (as they're going to always largely be a matter of personal preference) I strongly suspect that if GW had presented AoS as an alternate way to use your WHFB minis, it would have been met with much more positivity. There still would have been those cynics who would have seen it as just a cash grab, but for the most part I think it would have been met with the same sort of reaction as 40K in 40 minutes was... as a fun new way to play smaller, faster games with your existing collection.

I don't think the game is terrible for what it is in its own right... It's just as the spiritual successor to WHFB that it's so very, very bad.

And as a standalone game, it's lost in the sea of other, better, skirmish games.

I agree entirely. AoS does feel a bit like they knew they had to reinvigorate WHFB but the only way they know how to get sales any more is to kill it and re-release it with Spehss Mareenz.

And definitely if it had of come out alongside WHFB it would have copped far less flak. You can talk about how AoS isn't supposed to "replace" WHFB, it's supposed to be "new" and you can talk about how GW had no other choice.... I still think it was a stupid arse move on GW's behalf to alienate all the people who liked WHFB for WHFB and not just an excuse to collect citadel models and paints (add some sarcastic TM symbols there if you want ).

It's not a bad game for a skirmish game written on 4 pages.... but IMO that doesn't make it good, especially in a market flooded with good skirmish game alternatives.

As it is, AoS has halted my WHFB progress. I had 2 armies on the go and was working on random units from another 2 armies, that's now completely stopped and unless things change dramatically I expect them to sit on my shelf until I decide I need the space and throw them in the trash.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree entirely. AoS does feel a bit like they knew they had to reinvigorate WHFB but the only way they know how to get sales any more is to kill it and re-release it with Spehss Mareenz.

And definitely if it had of come out alongside WHFB it would have copped far less flak. You can talk about how AoS isn't supposed to "replace" WHFB, it's supposed to be "new" and you can talk about how GW had no other choice.... I still think it was a stupid arse move on GW's behalf to alienate all the people who liked WHFB for WHFB and not just an excuse to collect citadel models and paints (add some sarcastic TM symbols there if you want ).

With all due respect, has Games Workshop EVER done something that hasn't been met with cynicism, scorn, or outright contempt? Like, seriously. If GW had announce WHFB 9th Edition, would things have really been any different? Or would it be the exact same people complaining about how they nerfed this or broke that, or how this army got squatted or that army got too much attention? The heroes are too power or magic is too game breaking. Wouldn't we still hear people yelling about how they were wronged by GW and how they were leaving for KoW? Wouldn't we still be having cynical conversations about how GW changed this rule or that to sell more models because they aren't a games company? Or hear from people who think that doing a 9th Edition was the wrong decision and if only they did market research?

MOST of the complaints against AoS are complaints against Games Workshop, and I'd argue that we'd be seeing the exact same complaints - possibly from the exact same posters. Because nothing Games Workshop ever does is good enough, and some injustice in the past put them on people's dog house, and even if GW was just walking down the street, minding its own business, people would still find a reason that it was the most evil, corrupt piece of walking that has ever been walked. Because only toy companies walk like that.

I don't think Games Workshop did alienate WHFB players. I think they were already alienated. And the reason they are so upset isn't because of what GW did, so much as whatever GW didn't do. Whatever insane, half baked idea they have that is the One True Way to run a company that GW doesn't follow to the letter is some sort of personal insult. If only they'd done the thing I wanted them to do!

Seriously, I'm realizing now that it isn't about AoS. It never was. It's all just an excuse to sling gak at Games Workshop. And it doesn't matter which game was released, it still would've been a gak slinging excuse to the people who actively seek to hate and punish Games Workshop for whatever the hell transgression.

As it is, AoS has halted my WHFB progress. I had 2 armies on the go and was working on random units from another 2 armies, that's now completely stopped and unless things change dramatically I expect them to sit on my shelf until I decide I need the space and throw them in the trash.

That... doesn't sound like Age of Sigmar's doing. That's like saying Toyota came out with a new model of Corolla, so you're not going bother filling your older one up with gas. Yeah, totally Toyota's fault.

It is a beer and pretzels game, Geedub said so themselves.
There would likley be alot less outrage if it was a standalone game as opposed to the game that is supposed to replace Warhammer Fantasy.

 Nurgle wrote:

There would likley be alot less outrage if it was a standalone game as opposed to the game that is supposed to replace Warhammer Fantasy.

I honestly don't think that would be the case, because Games Workshop and "less outrage" seem like words that don't go together all that often.

 Sqorgar wrote:
If GW had announce WHFB 9th Edition, would things have really been any different?

Yes. Don't be silly, there's no way it would have been the same. Of course it would have been met with SOME criticism, all change is met with SOME criticism, but there's no way it would have been met with the same level of disdain as killing it entirely and releasing AoS.

Things don't happen for no reason or "just because GW did it".

As it is, AoS has halted my WHFB progress. I had 2 armies on the go and was working on random units from another 2 armies, that's now completely stopped and unless things change dramatically I expect them to sit on my shelf until I decide I need the space and throw them in the trash.

That... doesn't sound like Age of Sigmar's doing. That's like saying Toyota came out with a new model of Corolla, so you're not going bother filling your older one up with gas. Yeah, totally Toyota's fault.

That's a completely absurd analogy. You buy a car, you get a complete car and you drive that car. When you fill it up with fuel, you don't buy the fuel from Toyota. You have a predetermined warranty period but other than that you simply bought a product and then your relationship with the car company ends.

A wargame is not remotely similar. If you want to make a car analogy you'd have to use an example of a do it yourself car that you buy piece by piece often over the course of several years that you build yourself and then buy a bunch of paints and paint it yourself and then you can only drive that car on race tracks with people who own similar cars and if no one exists to race against your car sits in the garage doing nothing. Then a few years later with only a few months warning Toyota says they're not going to be supporting your kit car any more but instead start supporting do it yourself go karts.

It would still be an absurd analogy but at least it would be in the same galaxy.

 Sqorgar wrote:

With all due respect, has Games Workshop EVER done something that hasn't been met with cynicism, scorn, or outright contempt?

Space Hulk new edition back in 07. Only complaint I heard about it was that GW didn't produce nearly enoug!

You really have to understand this mentality and hostility between the company and the consumers is something that has built over a long time as GW changed into the company they are today. It wasn't always like this.

 Sqorgar wrote:
With all due respect, has Games Workshop EVER done something that hasn't been met with cynicism, scorn, or outright contempt?

Not since the late '90s, I'd say. Which is, coincidentally enough, around about the time they put their corporate hats on and started their gradual slide, communicating progressively less and less with their customer base and not surprisingly starting to swing ever wider of the mark with each successive product release.

They very nearly got it back with the release of 5th edition 40K... While it turned out ot have some fairly large flaws, the initial news that it was being written by Allessio Cavatore with an eye towards making a more tournament-friendly ruleset was initially met with an awful lot of enthuism. But then they backslid into the 'tournaments are evil' mindset that has made them what they are today.

It's really easy to just dismiss the attitude of GW's customer base towards the company as some irrational internet thing... but only until you stop and compare the reception GW releases tend to receive (which is far from universally negative, even so. Good releases do still receive their share of praise) to that of any other game company currently in the market. Or even more telling, comparing GW's reception to Forgeworld's... a company that is owned by GW, but run with more of an eye towards producing things that their customers actually want.



Edit - Space Hulk is a really good point, actually. The actual game re-release was met with an incredible amount of excitement. It was only GW's choice to do it as a limited release that got people cranky.

Dismiss all criticism of AOS under a blanket of "Haterz be hatin'."
That's a very closed minded and inaccurate way to look at the situation.
It also makes having a rational conversation with you impossible.
I don't hate AOS. I think it's silly and lazy, but I don't hate it. The concept is a legitimate one, but like most things GW does lately, it fails in its execution. If it had been actually good, I would have shrugged my shoulders, gave a golf clap and continued on.
But right now, AOS is like the Donald Trump of the gaming world. You kind of have to talk about it.

Yep GW do manage to sour some of even their best moves in recent years. Space Hulk being a limited run, Adeptus Mechanicus being broken into two books for no reason.

I think they are slowly getting better. For example the recent Tau release was a really nice idea as it allowed players with the old codex to buy a campaign suppliment instead of the updated codex to get the new rules (and that campaign suppliment looks incredibly cool in of itself).

The new 30k boardgame is also being well accepted it seems. It's a release obviously targetted to veterens who want to get a quick start to playing 30k. The only "odd" thing about it is GW have to pretend it's some boardgame when everyone knows the models will largely be used for 30k.

AoS had some universally accepted good ideas. For example free rules. I think everyone loves the idea of free rules and I hope the same comes to 40k as it is a big barrier in me getting back into it.

 Sqorgar wrote:

With all due respect, has Games Workshop EVER done something that hasn't been met with cynicism, scorn, or outright contempt?

Out of the top of my head:

Bloodbowl
Mordheim
Necromunda
Battlefleet Gothic
Space Hulk - all its versions
Inquisitor

Warhammer 6th ed was actually a breath of fresh air from 5th ed's heldenhammer
Warhammer 40k 5th ed was also pretty decent
Apocalypse also had positive reviews.

The problem is the more recent years, in case you hadn't noticed...

I'd say most editions of WHFB except for 8th were quite well received. 8th lost a lot of people right off the bat because of random charge distance and the rules favouring larger games.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd say most editions of WHFB except for 8th were quite well received. 8th lost a lot of people right off the bat because of random charge distance and the rules favouring larger games.

I can say that these two changes alone caused a couple of our players to just drop the game.


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 Bottle wrote:
Yep GW do manage to sour some of even their best moves in recent years. Space Hulk being a limited run, Adeptus Mechanicus being broken into two books for no reason.

I think they are slowly getting better. For example the recent Tau release was a really nice idea as it allowed players with the old codex to buy a campaign suppliment instead of the updated codex to get the new rules (and that campaign suppliment looks incredibly cool in of itself).

The new 30k boardgame is also being well accepted it seems. It's a release obviously targetted to veterens who want to get a quick start to playing 30k. The only "odd" thing about it is GW have to pretend it's some boardgame when everyone knows the models will largely be used for 30k.

AoS had some universally accepted good ideas. For example free rules. I think everyone loves the idea of free rules and I hope the same comes to 40k as it is a big barrier in me getting back into it.

The AdMech books decision still fething baffle me and I agree (gasp!) that the Tau codex/supplement thingie is a good idea... they just needed to sort out the internal balancing of the faction without resorting to "lulz use formations noob" - because we all know formations were SUCH a welcomed improvement to 40k... But I approve greatly of the idea itself, because it will save players money if they just don't like the rules/feel of the new models.

However... the free rules thing was pretty much a marketing manoeuver from GW because you immediately had two "sourcebooks" to buy that had the scenarios necessary to minimize the lack of balancing, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of the free rules bit (I am not even going into the quality of said rules).

And the doubling of cost of army books (and 40K Codexes.) I think that decision was perhaps GW's worst in a long time. GW's serious sales decline started when the 40K Codex price went from £15 to £30 at the launch of 6th edition.

Yes, there is a lot of criticism. Some of it is rather silly, like the claims that AoS is "worst game ever" or not even playable as a game. Obviously it's completely playable whether you like it or not.

But there are completely valid criticisms to be made of lots of things GW do. The amount of criticism certainly has increased since I joined DakkaDakka in early 2005. I take this as a reflection of GW going further and further off track, compared to how things were 10 years ago.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
And the doubling of cost of army books (and 40K Codexes.) I think that decision was perhaps GW's worst in a long time. GW's serious sales decline started when the 40K Codex price went from £15 to £30 at the launch of 6th edition.

Yes, there is a lot of criticism. Some of it is rather silly, like the claims that AoS is "worst game ever" or not even playable as a game. Obviously it's completely playable whether you like it or not.

But there are completely valid criticisms to be made of lots of things GW do. The amount of criticism certainly has increased since I joined DakkaDakka in early 2005. I take this as a reflection of GW going further and further off track, compared to how things were 10 years ago.

A lovely example of this:

People really liked the idea of having the BRB condensed into a small, no bull gak format when it started coming out with starter boxes. The secondary market was flooded with it, and I am sure GW made quite more than a few bucks on that. And then they decided to get greedy and make that same book a standalone while costing thrice the secondary market's cost, and removed them from the starter sets.

Why? Because feth the customers having cheap options!

Fans don't really care about money invested into their passion. Collectors as well.

AoS books are more for the collection and the background than the rules themselves - because, well, you can have them on the website anyway. Sure, there are battleplans as well and some formations...but honestly, you don't really need those to play. Battleplans in particular are more the skeleton of a scenario that the players will adapt to their armies, anyway.

And yes, they're expansive, because what is expansive is obviously of higher quality and thus, higher value.


However, I must agree with that;

 Bottle wrote:
Yep, I have fun with AoS but I see this attitude in their lack of gaming support on their website and in White Dwarf. They need to make the game the focal point again and I think lots will agree with that regardless if you like AoS or not.

Because I sometimes have a strange "Hobbit" feeling when I see the difference of display between AoS and 40k. Maybe that's unavoidable, maybe fantasy is really the "low horse" nowadays against SF, maybe AoS was just a way to keep selling old kits of Warhammer boxes. I don't know.

What I know is that I see more repackaged boxes for other races than Stormcast Eternals than true new miniatures. For a company saying they're selling the best in the market, well...that's strange. Sure, the newest kits from Lizardmen are very nice, but old Saurus and Skinks base troops would certainly have been better if they were resculpted like the Tau Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors.

Or maybe it's just me here. I'm thinking they will do the same for Aelfs and Duardins, keeping all the old kits for basic troops. That would be a shame for High Elves and Dwarf grunts - because you can see the difference between the old ones and the newest ones, IMHO.

 Sarouan wrote:
Fans don't really care about money invested into their passion. Collectors as well.

AoS books are more for the collection and the background than the rules themselves - because, well, you can have them on the website anyway. Sure, there are battleplans as well and some formations...but honestly, you don't really need those to play. Battleplans in particular are more the skeleton of a scenario that the players will adapt to their armies, anyway.

And yes, they're expansive, because what is expansive is obviously of higher quality and thus, higher value.

Sorry I have been a fan of FB/40k for over a decade, but I am not blind to ignore the fact that GW has effectively begun outpricing me - I can only willing go so far in ignoring their blatant price hikes in order to milk their "true" fans of all possible money.

Being a fan is not the same as being blind.

But hey, maybe i'm not a fan after all. After all I started questioning the Pied Piper.

 Sarouan wrote:

Or maybe it's just me here. I'm thinking they will do the same for Aelfs and Duardins, keeping all the old kits for basic troops. That would be a shame for High Elves and Dwarf grunts - because you can see the difference between the old ones and the newest ones, IMHO.

I'd disagree here. The reason for that being that at present there have been *no* visual representations of Duardin or Aelf in any of the books released so far, with the exception of the Brotherhood-of-Grungni style Red/Fyreslayers.
Given how tetchy GW are now about IP etc., this (to me, anyway) screams that we're looking at a full new faction release, à la Stormcast.
In the case of Duardin, I think the only possible carry over will be the Hammerers, Gyrocopter and Lord, because stylistically these are quite a departure from the models before - and may have been a move in the Duardin direction.

RoperPG wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

Or maybe it's just me here. I'm thinking they will do the same for Aelfs and Duardins, keeping all the old kits for basic troops. That would be a shame for High Elves and Dwarf grunts - because you can see the difference between the old ones and the newest ones, IMHO.

I'd disagree here. The reason for that being that at present there have been *no* visual representations of Duardin or Aelf in any of the books released so far, with the exception of the Brotherhood-of-Grungni style Red/Fyreslayers.
Given how tetchy GW are now about IP etc., this (to me, anyway) screams that we're looking at a full new faction release, à la Stormcast.
In the case of Duardin, I think the only possible carry over will be the Hammerers, Gyrocopter and Lord, because stylistically these are quite a departure from the models before - and may have been a move in the Duardin direction.

Agreed. On the Aelfs side, I'd look for the older kits. Namely the core units.

I'm guessing we'll see dual kits for archers with some additional ranged weapon, and for spearmen to allow them to use swords aswell. We'll likely see new Silvers helms too, with a possible dual kit for Reavers.

Chariots/PG/WL/DP/Phoenixes/Dragons will probably remain untouched and just get a rebasing. IoB SM's will likely get a box of their own.

This on the previous HE units, of course.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
And the doubling of cost of army books (and 40K Codexes.) I think that decision was perhaps GW's worst in a long time. GW's serious sales decline started when the 40K Codex price went from £15 to £30 at the launch of 6th edition.

Yes, there is a lot of criticism. Some of it is rather silly, like the claims that AoS is "worst game ever" or not even playable as a game. Obviously it's completely playable whether you like it or not.

But there are completely valid criticisms to be made of lots of things GW do. The amount of criticism certainly has increased since I joined DakkaDakka in early 2005. I take this as a reflection of GW going further and further off track, compared to how things were 10 years ago.

Yes, they do indeed make a lot of stupid decisions. Even as a fan of GW, it's like being between a rock and a hard place: angry and bitter players (or former players) on one side, and Tom Kirby's incompetence on the other... it's quite frustrating because unlike the most ardent GW detractors, I don't dislike the direction they're going in - just the way they're going about it. They clumsily stumble around, making some great decisions and some baffling ones, coming so close to greatness one month and then veering off in a completely different direction the next. To make matters worse, they fail to communicate any of this to the fanbase, leaving all of us in the dark. I like AoS, i like the direction 40k is going, but the devil is in the details...

In what way were whfb players already alienated before AoS?

Afaik, whfb wasn't even loosing money for GW, it just wasn't earning enough for them. Also, while anecdotal, there was a lot of evidence that whfb lost a huge amount on players on transition from 7th to 8th edition so a natural step maybe would be fixing whfb, especialy given the nature of the game where people invest, build, paint and plan for decades? But hey it might not be that smooth to shoehorn fantasy space marines there for the ultimate cash grab, not to mention make the silly and pointless attempts at copyrighting everything. The whole argument that AoS was inevitable and only way to keep GW doing fantasy is bs imo, it's just pure greed behind those decisions.

It's not that GW gets flak for everything they do from their psycho exes former fans, btw good to see attempts at finding a common psychological trait going strong. It's just that GW fails at everything they do, lot of people wanted a faster release scheulde for example but I doubt that a lot wanted it to look like that, sensory overload of dlc esque releases with significant deterioration in art and writing quality. Lot of people wanted lower entry point to the game but I doubt buying whatever and playing right away against whatever is what they meant. Etc, there's no reasonable middleground in what they do just some hysteric swings towards extremes and poor execution everywhere.

Also, as hard as embarassing it is to admit for a foaming at the mouth notorious hater of whatever GW does, I sometimes check the Age of Sigmar books because while it will never replace the magical yet grounded grim and gritty whfb, it could become another choice for that magic magical he man fantasy fix when I get one, as in, let's give it a chance as a standalone product. And I do find a few cool things there, it's ofc dissapointing to see for example undead that went from realistic fantasy gothic horror in whfb to cartoonish blue smoke swirling something straight from Warcraft/ Darksiders/ Heroes of M&M but droping the comparisions, it's still fantasy with chaos and chaos is cool, no? Well it somehow isn't for me in AoS, can't put my finger on why but at least there are daemons, it's hard to spoil friggen' daemons. Dryads while videogamey are ok still imo and the whole Sylvaneth faction has potential, there are good things either inherited or coming from the good artist (as End Times stuff and latest WE stuff seems to have been released with AoS in mind). But then come the sigmarines, I have to come out again and say that the leader on the lizard horse hound lion who almost looks like just a guy in the helmet is kinda but barely ok (for a he man type of setting ofc). The standard sigmarines though, they spoil everything each time, I was never a fan of sanguinary guard but at least those weren't fat and stupid not to mention that sigmarines don't fit so obviously and are so bad conceptualy and visualy that it rings the bs bell imediatelly. Really they ruin it for me no matter how open minded I come at it, and I did come open minded, repeatedly, to rules, to art, to concepts and all this haters crap is bs. Sadly, no matter how open minded my aproach, it still looks silly, soulless, forced and put together in a way that never clicks.

To give credit where it's due though, at least they had enough brain to not introduce sigmarines to the Old World. Thank you, GW.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


Sorry I have been a fan of FB/40k for over a decade, but I am not blind to ignore the fact that GW has effectively begun outpricing me - I can only willing go so far in ignoring their blatant price hikes in order to milk their "true" fans of all possible money.

I think that might swing back to my Premium Product comment yesterday!

I'm in a strange place with GW - I got back in to the hobby about 4 years ago and every book I've bought bought since 2011 has been made obsolete. Two Marines books (didn't buy the 'latest'), Space Wolves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Vampire Counts, Eldar... and 40k has had THREE rules releases in that time.

I can't even.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Afaik, whfb wasn't even loosing money for GW, it just wasn't earning enough for them. Also, while anecdotal, there was a lot of evidence that whfb lost a huge amount on players on transition from 7th to 8th edition so a natural step maybe would be fixing whfb, especialy given the nature of the game where people invest, build, paint and plan for decades? But hey it might not be that smooth to shoehorn fantasy space marines there for the ultimate cash grab, not to mention make the silly and pointless attempts at copyrighting everything. The whole argument that AoS was inevitable and only way to keep GW doing fantasy is bs imo, it's just pure greed behind those decisions.

So, a bunch of WHFB left after 8th and you are wondering how they were already alienated?

My guess is that the WHFB players were getting old. I'll bet the average player is in his 30s, or possibly even older. Saving the old guard without creating hooks for new, younger players to start playing wouldn't have increased the revenues for Fantasy for long. Once you've got kids, your disposable income drops significantly. The ideal age to target is teens and young adults, which I don't think a Tolkienesque fantasy setting appeals to anymore (especially after The Hobbit movies).

Age of Sigmar didn't just change to round bases. The lore itself was moved away from Tolkien-level fantasy to a more epic, mythological level. You've got a god king flying around space, resurrecting warriors of valor to fight in a losing battle against a world lost to chaos and darkness. The Stormcast are designed as a cross between two Greek gods: Helios, the sun god, and Ares, the god of war. Their backstory is similar to the einherjar, warriors brought to Valhalla to prepare for Ragnarok. This isn't wizards and goblins - this is gods and demons. And I think that setting does more to differentiate itself and appeal to younger players then the setting so generic that Games Workshop literally couldn't even protect it in court. It's also more of a power fantasy, which appeals more to teenagers, which is exactly what GW probably wants. So it isn't just a copyright issue, but an appeal issue.

And it's more of a trademark issue than a copyright one. Yeah, GW was pissed that Chapter House was making bits for their models (which they can't really do anything about, legally), but the real issue is that they were selling space marine pauldrons, which looked like space marine pauldrons, as "space marine pauldrons", which creates confusion in the marketplace because it looks and sounds official. With a more fortified trademark, they wouldn't be able to do that. They'd have to call it "pauldrons for you space guy", and they wouldn't be able to easily copy the pauldrons because the look of the space marines would be more unique and thus more protected. With Fantasy, they can't just rebrand the Aelfs and Duardin, they need to look physically unique - which is probably why the fantasy armies getting reboxes are the non-generic, non-human-looking figures.

And GW won't share what the new stuff looks like until the models are closer to release to prevent other companies from sneaking in there and releasing some first, diluting GW's own claim to protection. It's not a dick move. It's survival. It's why Apple only announces the new iPhones a few weeks before they are released. On the bright side, I think it is going to make from some amazing looking armies in the future. I'm really curious how they will make the undead look less like generic skeletons.

It's not that GW gets flak for everything they do from their psycho exes former fans, btw good to see attempts at finding a common psychological trait going strong. It's just that GW fails at everything they do

So, it's not that people complain about everything GW does, it's that everything GW does is worth complaining about? To quote the tv show Justified, "If you meet an donkey-cave in the morning, you met an donkey-cave. If you meet donkey-caves all day, you're the donkey-cave."

 monders wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


Sorry I have been a fan of FB/40k for over a decade, but I am not blind to ignore the fact that GW has effectively begun outpricing me - I can only willing go so far in ignoring their blatant price hikes in order to milk their "true" fans of all possible money.

I think that might swing back to my Premium Product comment yesterday!

I'm in a strange place with GW - I got back in to the hobby about 4 years ago and every book I've bought bought since 2011 has been made obsolete. Two Marines books (didn't buy the 'latest'), Space Wolves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Vampire Counts, Eldar... and 40k has had THREE rules releases in that time.

I can't even.

The thing is, saying/claiming now that their goods are premium is not nearly enough to justify their price increases. Sure, their models are pretty good but... 25€ for an Interrogator-Chaplain? 45€ for a Codex? That is way, way too much.

I won't repeat myself on my stand about GW - I left it elsewhere in this thread already. Let's just say that if I do buy Warhammer-related models, they certainly won't be BNIB

 Sqorgar wrote:

MOST of the complaints against AoS are complaints against Games Workshop, and I'd argue that we'd be seeing the exact same complaints - possibly from the exact same posters. Because nothing Games Workshop ever does is good enough, and some injustice in the past put them on people's dog house, and even if GW was just walking down the street, minding its own business, people would still find a reason that it was the most evil, corrupt piece of walking that has ever been walked. Because only toy companies walk like that.

I don't think Games Workshop did alienate WHFB players. I think they were already alienated. And the reason they are so upset isn't because of what GW did, so much as whatever GW didn't do. Whatever insane, half baked idea they have that is the One True Way to run a company that GW doesn't follow to the letter is some sort of personal insult. If only they'd done the thing I wanted them to do!

Seriously, I'm realizing now that it isn't about AoS. It never was. It's all just an excuse to sling gak at Games Workshop. And it doesn't matter which game was released, it still would've been a gak slinging excuse to the people who actively seek to hate and punish Games Workshop for whatever the hell transgression.

The opposition to AoS as the successor of WHFB should be judged on the merits of it's arguments and not automatically invalided because there may or may not be an underlying hatred of GW. And vice versa.

GW still makes the best models, or at least has the best quality/price in the quantity packages, not many other manufacturers even taking in http://unsupported-armies.blogspot.cz/ into account. if you want to build up a regiment of 20+ units GW is still the best way to go for price and comparative quality. As someone who is invested in 8th edition and potentially a future 9th Age player it will totally break the future prospects of this hobby for these systems if GW adopts a skirmish based unit package system for sale, and that is one of the things I fear with AoS being a skirmish game at core.

As for AoS if you are fine with skirmish or prefer it then it's great. But if you want regiments and huge armies then it sucks compared to 8th. And yes KoW is a good alternative but like pointed out by others KoW is not a Heroic Fantasy Game, it's not the setting or races we have come to love over the last 30 years and it is quite a different game (still good though). I understand GW strategy in pursuing AoS with regards to getting younger players, and yes it is easier to just set up a casual AoS game with new people than it is with 8th, people don't really care about balance the first matches.

So for the players like myself that liked 8th, would have love to see it continue in that direction just more balancing it is a real and credible reason to be pissed off at AoS because it is making harder to continue building existing and new armies to our system, and with the new CopyRight races underway it will be interesting to see if AoS really will kill off 8th. Because if the old races will go the way of the Chaos Dwarves then it will have essentially killed 8th and potentially 9th age.

And for the fluff, the WHFB old world fluff that they flushed down the drain, yes it still exist, they can't delete history. But it isn't ours, because GW has already sent cease and desist letters to the 9th Age developers for making a free non-profit real successor to 8th edition. So no we are not allowed to continue with our own system in WHFB, GW will sue you if you do. And if that is not a transgression that is evil, petty and corrupt against a company own fanbase then I don't know what is...

Gunman006 wrote:
And for the fluff, the WHFB old world fluff that they flushed down the drain, yes it still exist, they can't delete history. But it isn't ours, because GW has already sent cease and desist letters to the 9th Age developers for making a free non-profit real successor to 8th edition. So no we are not allowed to continue with our own system in WHFB, GW will sue you if you do. And if that is not a transgression that is evil, petty and corrupt against a company own fanbase then I don't know what is...

Holy gak, I had no idea this had happened. That's like... a new low.

 Sqorgar wrote:
My guess is that the WHFB players were getting old. I'll bet the average player is in his 30s, or possibly even older. Saving the old guard without creating hooks for new, younger players to start playing wouldn't have increased the revenues for Fantasy for long. Once you've got kids, your disposable income drops significantly. The ideal age to target is teens and young adults, which I don't think a Tolkienesque fantasy setting appeals to anymore (especially after The Hobbit movies).

I'm curious where you got this idea that WHFB players are older. I can only speak for myself and my local area but we were older than the 40kers yes, but definitely not 30+ family and kids types.

 Sqorgar wrote:
And it's more of a trademark issue than a copyright one. Yeah, GW was pissed that Chapter House was making bits for their models (which they can't really do anything about, legally), but the real issue is that they were selling space marine pauldrons, which looked like space marine pauldrons, as "space marine pauldrons", which creates confusion in the marketplace because it looks and sounds official. With a more fortified trademark, they wouldn't be able to do that. They'd have to call it "pauldrons for you space guy", and they wouldn't be able to easily copy the pauldrons because the look of the space marines would be more unique and thus more protected. With Fantasy, they can't just rebrand the Aelfs and Duardin, they need to look physically unique - which is probably why the fantasy armies getting reboxes are the non-generic, non-human-looking figures.

They can't do anything about it legally because it wasn't illegal. There was not even evidence of people being confused and thinking CH was GW properly. GW were even asked if they had evidence of this and they had no repose. And, as the court case settled once and for all, no they would not have to state it as "pauldrons for space guy", it was decided that is is perfectly legal to advertise as compatible with GW models, just like it has been for after market bits in other industries for decades now.

Honestly, when it comes to the name changes in AoS I can't not attribute them to overzeleaous copyright protection just because of this one little offhand comment from Merrit in that trial about how they should have copywrited the whole 28mm scale when they had the chance. GW's head of IP (and IP protection) said that. That's frankly ed up.

They could have left whfb alive, for mail order only maybe if needed shelf space, release errata/ book/or sth and release Age of Sigmar alongside it. At least they wouldn't have to mix Tolkienesque races with mythological races (though they can overlap ofc) for silly effect like AoS. Also Helios and Ares, not space marines? Please. You can't tell me they created them out of mythological inspirations and not to to repeat space marines sales succes in fantasy. Any mythological bits are excuses not a creative spark.

I think it's bs that the Old World wouldn't apeal to teenagers. Few games on console like Verminide, Total War on pc and you will see. I know many guys who play only consoles but like whfb because they played Shadow of the Horned Rat as kids/ teens.

Also I don't understand your claims and questions. Yes some whfb players left, some stayed, who was alienated, how? You said it was before AoS, I don't get that either. There were books, model releases, white dwarf space, everything before AoS hit.

Yes it's not people complaining at everything GW does by default. It's people commenting on crap which is accidentaly what GW does all the time, probably because they don't give a crap anymore except for money and it shows.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Gunman006 wrote:
And for the fluff, the WHFB old world fluff that they flushed down the drain, yes it still exist, they can't delete history. But it isn't ours, because GW has already sent cease and desist letters to the 9th Age developers for making a free non-profit real successor to 8th edition. So no we are not allowed to continue with our own system in WHFB, GW will sue you if you do. And if that is not a transgression that is evil, petty and corrupt against a company own fanbase then I don't know what is...

Holy gak, I had no idea this had happened. That's like... a new low.

Actually I believe they did the same to a Blood Bowl fansite, so it is simply hitting the same low once again.