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While the new background of AOS irritates me somewhat (as a Dwarf player I don't see my guys mentioned all that much) I just remember that the game is still young, and they're still releasing background for it. I'm willing to wait for the Dwarf Battletome to come out. I'm willing to stick with the game, sure there are other games out there that could maybe offer me a more tactical game (read, KOW), but no other game has ever truly entranced me like Fantasy did when I started out. Sure AOS doesn't have 30+years of rich background to back it up, but I'm willing to give it a chance. Plus we haven't seen what happened to all the 8th edition characters. I'm willing to bet that at least some of them will make a comeback somehow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 15:24:18
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
2015/11/02 15:26:05
Subject: Re:Misconceptions Regarding Age of Sigmar
Then Nagash really isn't worthy of his titles if even a little snotling can wound him so easily. I don't know why Mannfred was so afraid of him to begin with...
Nagash has 16 wounds and saves on a 3+, meaning 67% of the wounds ain't gonna mean anything (without rend) and the few that do won't take him down anytime soon.
For perspective, Celestant Prime has 8 wounds, 3+ save, so Nagash is two times more survivable than the CP. I would say that MOST units don't have more than 5 wounds each, with heroes having 7-8 wounds, and the really big mother fethers having 12-15 wounds. There's wiggle room, like a hero can have more wounds but will probably have a worse save. Nagash has, as far as I can tell, the highest number of wounds and the best save in the game. But yeah, with enough hits and luck on your side, you can take him down (you know, after you get through his army of skeletons).
Look at the point go way, way above and get twisted around!
The point is a snotling should never, EVER be able to even to wound Nagash the way it wounds another snotling. What's the point of being the most powerful Necromancer in History, the embodiment of the Wind of Death if a mindless snotling can hurt you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
auticus wrote: The problem with a game involving objects that cannot be hurt by other objects is that often the game will be decided in the list building phase where people who understand math realize that if you can make as many static items that are difficult or impossible to hurt that they will have the better chance of winning.
Which turns the game into 100 variable builds, but only seeing 4 or 5 of those builds typically.
For some thats not a problem. For me - that kills my interest after a couple of months.
Well, to each his/her own. I just find it stupid to see a snotling wound a Star Dragon with the same ease it wounds another Snotling - there is no interaction between opposing miniatures - it's one of the things that instantly irked me form AoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 15:30:08
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Herzlos wrote: His point was that the Warmachine modifiers aren't actually any more complex, but they involve less needless work, and they are actually fairly intuitive. If you make the same attack twice the Warmachine version is easier because you already know the values.
More cover - harder to hit. More armour - harder to wound.
It's the quantity of modifiers that is the problem, as well as how situational the special cases are. Yeah, being in a forest gives you +2 to ranged attacks, but +4 if you have camouflage, except against a unit that has true sight, which allows them to ignore concealment and camouflage. And that's if you aren't next to a unit that changes those stats, or in a formation that changes them, or have a spell which changes them, or going against a unit that changes it.
Every single rule in Warmachine has another rule which ignores it. Want to walk through rough terrain? Half speed unless you have pathfinder. Can't shoot through units? Well, some units have ranked formation, which means they don't block line of site to friendly units. Focus adds to the ARM of your warcaster? Unless you have an arcane assassin which ignores it. Damage a jack? Roll for column, unless you have snipe and the attacker can do one damage to any column he chooses. Can see this enemy? Well, you can't shoot him because his is incoporeal (and also didn't attack this turn), which requires a magic weapon. This unit is immune to blast damage. This unit can't be targeted by spell. This unit can run a jack despite not being a warcaster. Roll two dice, except if it is a charge, then roll three. Or if the unit is a weapon master, roll three (or four if it is a charge).
EVERY. SINGLE. RULE. There is no rule in Warmachine that is absolute, and it means that every single combat action is situational and requires a thousand different factors to be considered and accounted for. There is nothing intuitive about Warmachine. It's why you have to play 200 games before you finally feel like you know how to play.
And there is nothing wrong with any of that in my opinion, it all becomes rather intuitive once you know what you are doing. And the modifiers really do just come down to something as simple as +2, -2, +2 in most cases.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Herzlos wrote: His point was that the Warmachine modifiers aren't actually any more complex, but they involve less needless work, and they are actually fairly intuitive. If you make the same attack twice the Warmachine version is easier because you already know the values.
More cover - harder to hit. More armour - harder to wound.
It's the quantity of modifiers that is the problem, as well as how situational the special cases are. Yeah, being in a forest gives you +2 to ranged attacks, but +4 if you have camouflage, except against a unit that has true sight, which allows them to ignore concealment and camouflage. And that's if you aren't next to a unit that changes those stats, or in a formation that changes them, or have a spell which changes them, or going against a unit that changes it.
Every single rule in Warmachine has another rule which ignores it. Want to walk through rough terrain? Half speed unless you have pathfinder. Can't shoot through units? Well, some units have ranked formation, which means they don't block line of site to friendly units. Focus adds to the ARM of your warcaster? Unless you have an arcane assassin which ignores it. Damage a jack? Roll for column, unless you have snipe and the attacker can do one damage to any column he chooses. Can see this enemy? Well, you can't shoot him because his is incoporeal (and also didn't attack this turn), which requires a magic weapon. This unit is immune to blast damage. This unit can't be targeted by spell. This unit can run a jack despite not being a warcaster. Roll two dice, except if it is a charge, then roll three. Or if the unit is a weapon master, roll three (or four if it is a charge).
EVERY. SINGLE. RULE. There is no rule in Warmachine that is absolute, and it means that every single combat action is situational and requires a thousand different factors to be considered and accounted for. There is nothing intuitive about Warmachine. It's why you have to play 200 games before you finally feel like you know how to play.
That doesn't sound any worse than 40K. Are the various special rules interactions in AoS any better?
The point though is that the Snotling DOESN'T wound the Star Dragon with the same ease it wounds another Snotling. If he "wounds" another Snotling, he mauls it completely and it dies instantly. If he wounds the dragon, which is much less likely because of its save, it really doesn't care because that "wound" is barely a scratch (in game terms, he has 14 wounds left). It's a different way of representing the exact same thing.
2015/11/02 15:44:53
Subject: Re:Misconceptions Regarding Age of Sigmar
The point is a snotling should never, EVER be able to even to wound Nagash the way it wounds another snotling. What's the point of being the most powerful Necromancer in History, the embodiment of the Wind of Death if a mindless snotling can hurt you?
And that's my point. A snotling may have a chance to wound Nagash, but it's really small. A snotling gets 5 attacks, each one having a 33% of hitting and then a 17% of wounding. With no rend, those inflicted wounds then have a 33% of going through. Which comes out to about a 2% chance that any one attack is going to even cause a wound. A 2% chance to do 6% damage to Nagash. So no snotling is going to be a viable opponent for Nagash, and on the off-off-chance that a wound is actually inflicted, it will be a minor flesh wound, at best.
Against Nagash, you'll want units that inflict mortal wounds, which is limited to the much more powerful units. With a mortal wound, you skip the wound/save rolls and inflict damage directly. The Lord Celestant on Dracoth has a breath attack that has a 50% chance of causing D3 mortal wounds, but it is limited to the shooting phase (which could be 4 melee combat phases away). The Celestant Prime also has a ranged attack that does mortal wounds as well, but his melee attack has an 83% of wounding and the -3 rend means that Nagash only has a 17% of saving.
So all that stuff is modeled by the combination of dice rolls. Everybody can hit everybody, but certainly not equally.
2015/11/02 15:48:37
Subject: Re:Misconceptions Regarding Age of Sigmar
@characters remaining:
It seems, from how the Lizardman book is looking, that most if not all warscrolls from special characters are going to be repurposed into Special generic characters. Only one that seems absolutely certain is lord kroak, which makes sense seeing as how he is immortal as all heck
That doesn't sound any worse than 40K. Are the various special rules interactions in AoS any better?
Generally, yes. Most units don't get to affect all three of the combat phases (hit/wound/save). Like the Liberators can reroll 1s to hit with paired weapons or 1s to save with shields, but not both. Units tend to buff themselves more than they buff others, and the limitations in the hero phase means that there are fewer spells affecting the battlefield. Terrain may have random effects, but by itself, it only gives you a +1 to save. Also, the reroll once rule means that more modifiers doesn't necessarily mean more steps. The three roll phases don't require input from the other player, so the attacker can perform the hit/wound rolls without having to ask the opponent what his stats are or how they are changed by whatever. Most of the modifiers just modify an existing rule (few that they are), while in WMH, modifiers tend to overrule or outright replace them.
In general, AoS's modifiers are more localized and universal, while something like WMH is more integrated and situational.
Mymearan wrote: The point though is that the Snotling DOESN'T wound the Star Dragon with the same ease it wounds another Snotling. If he "wounds" another Snotling, he mauls it completely and it dies instantly. If he wounds the dragon, which is much less likely because of its save, it really doesn't care because that "wound" is barely a scratch (in game terms, he has 14 wounds left). It's a different way of representing the exact same thing.
No, it wounds just as easily - the to hit and to wound values are exactly the same - the Armour Save is a roll that belongs to the Star Dragon altogether to see if he can SAVE the wound - the game doesn't even consider interaction between opposing models. The same Target Numbers are rolled, there is no variation. It's 5+TH/6+TWregardless.
Also, much less likely is completely different from "will not happen at all. Ever." But this is semantics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 16:11:01
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
No, it wounds just as easily - the to hit and to wound values are exactly the same - the Armour Save is a roll that belongs to the Star Dragon altogether to see if he can SAVE the wound - the game doesn't even consider interaction between opposing models. The same Target Numbers are rolled, there is no variation. It's 5+TH/6+TWregardless.
It is what happens after this that is kinda important.
No, it wounds just as easily - the to hit and to wound values are exactly the same - the Armour Save is a roll that belongs to the Star Dragon altogether to see if he can SAVE the wound - the game doesn't even consider interaction between opposing models. The same Target Numbers are rolled, there is no variation. It's 5+TH/6+TWregardless.
It is what happens after this that is kinda important.
No, it wounds just as easily - the to hit and to wound values are exactly the same - the Armour Save is a roll that belongs to the Star Dragon altogether to see if he can SAVE the wound - the game doesn't even consider interaction between opposing models. The same Target Numbers are rolled, there is no variation. It's 5+TH/6+TWregardless.
It is what happens after this that is kinda important.
Also, much less likely is completely different from "will not happen at all. Ever." But this is semantics.
Should be pointed out that a snotling could wound Nagash in WHFB too...
Could it? I don't have the books with me at the moment but I distinctly remember Nagash being T7... or is it 6?
8th Edition introduced 6s can wound any toughness, prior to that it wouldn't have been possible.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
No, it wounds just as easily - the to hit and to wound values are exactly the same - the Armour Save is a roll that belongs to the Star Dragon altogether to see if he can SAVE the wound - the game doesn't even consider interaction between opposing models. The same Target Numbers are rolled, there is no variation. It's 5+TH/6+TWregardless.
It is what happens after this that is kinda important.
Problem with this is that while all of our favorite characters may be alive again, There is absolutely no lore on them whatsoever
At the moment - GW have never revealed everything all at once for any of their worlds, they were not about to start now.
So you want people to wait and see for potentially another 3 decades?
Kay.
I would be extremely surprised if the main factions for AoS were not fleshed out book and mini wise by next Xmas.
They already are fleshed out book and mini wise!
It's just that there's only two main factions. Everyone else is a plot point.
Sorry, to be clear - Battletomes and repacks for undead, beasts, Skaven, Orruks and Ogors.
New stuff for Aelf, Duardin and Fyre/Redslayers.
Chaos I'm not sure about yet, but expecting God-specific books and minis.
Tlr - no lack of up to date (I.e. post-ET) fluff for any faction by next Xmas.
At this point I think GW are in a serious bind. To rerelease any of the races with actual new aesthetics means they have to redo a massive part of the line right off the bat, a rather large investment that they seem to have already shown an unwillingness to commit to. Or, they can release a new box for an existing range that doesn't stand out like a sore thumb against the old aesthetic of their lines and fairly succinctly show everyone that the old models are NOT being updated and the old races are keeping the same looks.
Right now I think reboxing things is the safer way of going about option two. Nowhere have they shown us that the races aren't getting new models with a new look in the future, but the more things that make it into AoS boxes the less likely there is to be any drastic changes in the visuals and style of the faction.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jonolikespie wrote: At this point I think GW are in a serious bind. To rerelease any of the races with actual new aesthetics means they have to redo a massive part of the line right off the bat, a rather large investment that they seem to have already shown an unwillingness to commit to. Or, they can release a new box for an existing range that doesn't stand out like a sore thumb against the old aesthetic of their lines and fairly succinctly show everyone that the old models are NOT being updated and the old races are keeping the same looks.
Right now I think reboxing things is the safer way of going about option two. Nowhere have they shown us that the races aren't getting new models with a new look in the future, but the more things that make it into AoS boxes the less likely there is to be any drastic changes in the visuals and style of the faction.
That's true. I think GW relies heavily on drumming up excitement for new releases. Like many entertainment based companies their product sales peak at release then drop off.
Except I don't think reboxing old models with a new book is going to be sufficient to drum up the enthusiasm needed to keep GW going in the way they are accustomed.
But maybe GW have some more interesting releases up their sleeves, just have to wait and see.
GW need to repackage the old armies into AoS boxes for brand recognition.
It looks like they are going to make some new models for some armies, like the Dwarves. This is necessary to try and get more revenue from old WHFB players, who can simply use their existing armies at the moment. It's very unlikely that whole armies will be redesigned, but possibly armies using moulds that are nearing end of life will be replaced with new designs.
I expect the Sigmarines and Chaos forces to be filled out with as many new models as GW can produce, since the starter set armies must be the most appealing to new recruits.
I've never played WHFB, but I have been eyeing the game for years now, and purchased several models to paint and display. But as someone starting out in the wargaming hobby, the rules and gameplay were far too complicated, and required toting around a bible-sized book even for a small game. This is not much of an issue, except when you take into account that GW games serve as an entry-point for most budding gamers. They certainly did for me. As a youngster who has never heard of tabletop wargaming, you are far more likely to be exposed to 40k, fantasy or LOTR/Hobbit than you are Firestorm Armada, Infinity etc. But the complexity of the rules can serve as a deterrent (that and the price of the models). So in that way I feel AoS was a good move.
We are death. Fight hard brothers, the Emperor watches.
The army lists are the war scrolls, which are individual unit descriptions. Obviously all the Dwarf units are downloadable in one 'book' (not the Sigmarine ones, though). However if you download the Dwarves you don't have to pick war scrolls only form the Dwarves collection.
Ideally you would make an army that all belongs to the same fluffy faction, which would be Order for Dwarves, but the rules don't actually stop you from combining Order and Chaos units if that's what you want to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/09 20:29:51
And furthermore there is truly nothing stopping you from talking warscrolls and using them for alternate or 3rd party miniatures to fit a theme. Like say you wanted to play lizardmen, but dislike how they are daemons and wanted a more DnD lizardfolk approach to the race. Nothing really stops you from playing them as beastmen as long as the models are vaguely correct in size and purpose. So saurus become gors, temple guard as bestigors, skinks as ungors, priests as Bray shamans, and slann as...umm...chaos sorcerer on disc of Tzeentch?
I don't know why Mannfred was so afraid of him to begin with...
We are death. Fight hard brothers, the Emperor watches.