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Hello everyone,

I'm primarily a 40k lover because of the fluff, and it's the fluff that has encouraged me to get back into painting and modelling (see my first attempts at battle reports here for my first go at bringing a bit of my love for fluff into the gaming arena).

Loving the fluff means that I have a few issues with the game (and some of the models) but that's only to be expected so I don't hold it too much against GW. If the game was true to the fluff then five space marines would be equivalent to about 500 IG and they'd sell hardly anything (or huge amounts of IG perhaps?).

One thing I think could be improved though is the humble chainsword. In the fluff it's a monstrous device capable of carving up marine power armour and tyranids for breakfast (I'm thinking Commissar Cain for instance). In the game it's just a ccw which makes models look a bit cooler. I seem to remember it used to be better years ago but perhaps I'm imagining things.

So I want a houserule that makes them cool again. This is meant to be fluffy so I don't want them overpowered and I'm also aware that it's mainly the imperium that uses them so I don't want to overpower them and annoy anyone who wants to play as a xeno or heretic.

I found a similar thread on this earlier but it was looking to do it points neutral (i.e. come up with a rule that wouldn't give them in game points) whereas I think to truly reflect how good I think they are they should have some additional points. I also don't want to give it any special rules as I don't want to overcomplicate it too much so only changes to the core stats.

So that was all a long way of saying I think the chainsword should be Strength +1/AP5 for an additional +5 points per chainsword. What do people think? I think this gives it power and some bite into armour but doesn't over power it. It would make a squad of assault marines +25 points (too much?) or an imperial guard officer +5 points but with a chance in close combat against anything tougher than he is strong (so pretty much anything).

Views/(polite) dissent welcome.

Well, if we're doing it that way, S+1/AP6, just like its Eldar equivalent seems to make some sense. (Fluffwise, it doesn't seem like the more advanced xenos version should be weaker than the Imperial one - just that the same weapon is in the hands of an S4 Space Marine rather than an S3 Striking Scorpion.)

Also, AP5 would completely defeat the armor of Guardsmen, Pathfinders (Tau or Alaitoc), Rangers, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors and Archons, in addition to all the armor AP6 would defeat. This would even further magnify the "5+ is a soggy piece of cardboard, 4+ is real armor" problem that already exists.

Also, a fair number of units would need to be tweaked to distinguish between "chainswords" and "generic CCWs", but that's a minor issue.

I think chainsword defo need a look in, appartenly chain fists are great at armour pen so why do the chain parts on here own do nothing?

Things ive considered:
- Rend.
- Shred.
- Limited buff on a 6 to hit, +1 str and ap 4

not all at once. lol

Jade Angel I think you might be on to something there. I didn't realise that Eldar had differently rated chainswords already I'm afraid - are they also just called chainswords or do they have an exotic name? Do you know how many points they are? That might be a good way to calibrate the points value of a S+1/AP6 ccw.

Zognob Gorgoff (great name by the way - is the leader of your ork forces called that?) I think rend or shred might be a bit over powered (plus I wasn't keen on adding a special rule) but the temporary buff on a 6 to hit would also be interesting (but breaks my lack of special rule desire so I think I'd still prefer to copy the Eldar rule).

Either way, they need something to differentiate them from the Bolt Pistol. WYSIWYG is lame for Bikers in that sense.

Reaper Chainswords are the special Eldar version. They also have standard "just a CCW" chainswords on Storm Guardians, but nobody uses them because they stink on ice, so there's that. The Reaper Chainswords have their cost built into Striking Scorpions, but I'd take a guess at roughly 1ppm to swap a CCW for one unit-wide, 2ppm to add one (like on Grey Hunters, or what Celestians should really have), and maybe 3-5ppm for one on a character. Less if it's replacing a pistol or CCW. (Singleton weapons nearly always cost more than their equivalent unit-wide.)

It should be the kind of upgrade that I'd be inclined to say "yeah, throw it in" on a tactical sergeant or a sister superior: more than 5ppm and I'd either skip it to save points or look at going straight to a power sword.

Now, if I wanted to go for a special rule in lieu of +1S, I'd say "re-roll ones to wound/pen". That might be a better option, BTW - +1S does allow guard/sisters with them to glance AV10, and Space Marines can pen AV10 or glance AV11. Blood Angels would even get to glance AV12 - they could now dice up Helbrutes in CC without using krak grenades or power mauls/axes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Either way, they need something to differentiate them from the Bolt Pistol. WYSIWYG is lame for Bikers in that sense.

Oh, aye. Bolt pistols on bikers don't make much sense when they're relentless anyway... Let's see: fire my bolt pistol, or fire two twin-linked shots from my bike-mounted bolters, and still charge? Easy call. Only way I'm firing one shot before charging is if it's a special weapon or a krak grenade.

3 points to put the eldar scorpion chainsword on an autarch.

Okay thanks everyone. I think then that my house rule will be (and of course no one has to use this, that's the beauty of a house rule) Chainsword is S+1/AP6 at 3ppm for IG and 4ppm for Space Marines.

The reason I've gone for separate points for Space Marines and Imperial Guard is that it will be more powerful with Space Marines (given their already higher strength) and they are likely to use more of them (whole assault squads for instance) whereas for Imperial Guards it's likely to be lone models and therefore less likely to change the course of a combat than giving it to a whole squad of Marines. I want this rule to be fluffy (i.e. show that chainswords are better than a fist/tire iron/dagger) not create a weapon that is either too powerful or undercosted. Fluff wise I can justify this to myself with the increased quality of Space Marine equipment over the mass produced rubbish that Imperial Guard often use ("remember that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder"!).

Equipping them works just as it normally does in any codex you choose to use (so if a model can have a chainsword in a codex entry you can either take a 'normal' chainsword that counts as a ccw or take my enhanced chainsword for +3/4ppm).

Now I just to convince any opponent to let me do this or it's not really much of a houserule!

Only tweak I'd make to that is that when you're outfitting an entire unit with them (Assault Marines or Grey Hunters, say), they should probably only be 2PPM extra. Unit-wide wargear selections are nearly always discounted: look at Death Cult Assassins for example. They're 15 pts, but purely by the numbers would be somewhere around 40. Unit-wide discounting on their Power Swords keeps the price reasonable. Likewise for Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees.

But otherwise, not bad at all. I might even use this in some of my local games.

One thing to think of though is the reason chainswords (et al) were simplified in the first place.

In 2nd edition IIRC they were S4, -1 save and could parry attacks (force opponent to reroll one hit).

In 3rd wtih the move to bigger armies and faster games they became CC weapons.

The idea was in an RPG or skirmish game the difference between a chain sword or combat knife is huge but in a mass combat game we just don't have the bandwith to care. It's like how all assault rifles and las guns have the same profile. In Only War they have pages of rules for different rifles but when there's 200+models on the board, who cares?

Unfortunately GW has changed their philosophy, now we have 10 story war mechs, and rules that require you to roll if your conversion field blinds your own men or what effect hallusnagen grenades have.

On topic, if chainswords are getting rules, I'd favor rerolling wounds (Shred right?) or rerolling 1s to wound. I don't think the spinning teeth would help penetrate armor as much as they would tear flesh.

I think Shred would be the best way to go about it. Not a massive change, but it makes it stand out more from the standard CCW.

How about this:

Ripper Sword
S-user
AP --
Shred

A Ripper Sword is an improved chain sword, far superior to the normal ones that are little better than a combat knife. Any Imperial model that can take a power weapon may instead take a Shred Sword for 3 points.

Just to put this out there, Nobz with their 3 attacks base and furious charge can take Big Choppas which are +2 str and AP 5 and yet you almost never see Big Choppas used outside of some fluff lists. The thing is most units have 5+ or 6+ armor tends to either be A. Easy to kill already so why waste points trying to be better at killing easy targets or B. Has an invuln save so they just use that instead. So be wary when trying to put points onto a melee weapon that lacks good AP values or has some sort of utility.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
How about this:

Ripper Sword
S-user
AP --
Shred

A Ripper Sword is an improved chain sword, far superior to the normal ones that are little better than a combat knife. Any Imperial model that can take a power weapon may instead take a Shred Sword for 3 points.

This actually sounds fairly good to me. Would need some play test to see how 3ppm would work out. Balancing close combat weapon costs is incredibly tricky due to how base attacks, base strength, and other special rules factor into a units melee damage potential.

In an environment where base range weapons got improvement for free (Necron gauss, Eldar monofilament, etc) paying for a better cc weapons is a waste. Addind something like Shred to chainsword should be free and only for fluff reason because the game impact would be so small

If yo want to buff them, got to increase their point cost.

I'm for "All Chain Weapons reroll 1s to-wound/penetrate" This includes Chainaxes, Chainflails, Chainfists, Chainglaives (If you're into Horus Heresy stuff), Chainscythes (if you wanted to port your Spyrer Matriarch into 7th ed), or any other Chain Weapon of choice.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I'm for "All Chain Weapons reroll 1s to-wound/penetrate" This includes Chainaxes, Chainflails, Chainfists, Chainglaives (If you're into Horus Heresy stuff), Chainscythes (if you wanted to port your Spyrer Matriarch into 7th ed), or any other Chain Weapon of choice.

Nobody ever remembers the Eviscerator.

 raverrn wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I'm for "All Chain Weapons reroll 1s to-wound/penetrate" This includes Chainaxes, Chainflails, Chainfists, Chainglaives (If you're into Horus Heresy stuff), Chainscythes (if you wanted to port your Spyrer Matriarch into 7th ed), or any other Chain Weapon of choice.

Nobody ever remembers the Eviscerator.

I'm just used to its old 3rd ed rules, where "The Eviscerator counts as a Chainfist, but requires two hands to use." I miss ye old Kroot Mercenary Codex.

That's... pretty much still what it is, but AFAIK only four units can take it - Sisters Repentia, Canonesses, Ministorum Priests (Inquisition and Adepta Sororitas only, not Astra Militarum), and Assault Marines...

Kid_Kyoto
Post 2015/12/01 16:51:07 Subject: Chainsword house rules
How about this:

Ripper Sword
S-user
AP --
Shred

A Ripper Sword is an improved chain sword, far superior to the normal ones that are little better than a combat knife. Any Imperial model that can take a power weapon may instead take a Shred Sword for 3 points.

This doesn't sound too bad (although it does invalidate my not wanting a special rule rule though, grrrr). I think though that I'd say it can be a direct replacement for chainswords, not instead of a power weapon - that way normal assault marines and imperial guard sergeants could take it. Whether it's worth 3ppm would need some playtesting as Vankraken says but is perhaps a good place to start.

Yet again thanks for all the help everyone.