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So, something has been bugging me for a while about the Iron Hands...

Why do they replace their superhuman, super strong limbs with machine ones? I can see puny humans wanting to change out their wimpy legs and arms with robot ones, but Astartes? They are already stronger and tougher than humans, so why bother augmenting themselves?

Because the flesh is weak!

(It's discussed in the Clan Raukaan supplement - they blame the weakness of flesh for the death of Ferrus Manus and the whole Heresy, and as such the flesh is weak and must be removed/replaced)

beast_gts wrote:
Because the flesh is weak!

Yea, weak pastey human flesh is, but why replace their arms when they are not human anymore?

They hate the frailty of living beings, that's why.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Because the flesh is weak!

Yea, weak pastey human flesh is, but why replace their arms when they are not human anymore?

They believe being machine is better - the short Iron Soul has a

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
So, something has been bugging me for a while about the Iron Hands...

Why do they replace their superhuman, super strong limbs with machine ones? I can see puny humans wanting to change out their wimpy legs and arms with robot ones, but Astartes? They are already stronger and tougher than humans, so why bother augmenting themselves?

Because augmetics are stronger than marines, too.

It's like a scale. From weakest to strongest;

Grot
Human
Eldar
Low-end augmetic
Ork
Space Marine/Necron
Top-end Augmetic
Archeotech Augmetic

The Clan Raukaan supplement hints at some degree of Xenos corruption, actually.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
So, something has been bugging me for a while about the Iron Hands...

Why do they replace their superhuman, super strong limbs with machine ones? I can see puny humans wanting to change out their wimpy legs and arms with robot ones, but Astartes? They are already stronger and tougher than humans, so why bother augmenting themselves?

Because augmetics are stronger than marines, too.

It's like a scale. From weakest to strongest;

Grot
Human
Eldar
Low-end augmetic
Ork
Space Marine/Necron
Top-end Augmetic
Archeotech Augmetic

Orks are comparable to space marines and necrons on the whole.

But as far as augmentations, I thought even the source material points out that the swap to mechanics is not an improvement, it is more of a lateral move.

I can never remember if Orks are as strong as Marines or as tough as Marines. ^^; So you could be right.

It is basically a huge repressed trauma because of the death of their Primarch.
Ferrus Manus died because he let his emotions get the better of him. As a consequence, the Iron Hands abhor emotion. To them, the flesh is the symbol of human frailty and emotionality. That is why they aspire to replace their human flaws with the superior cold logic of the machine, so they may never fall to the same weakness as their hated Primarch.
The only emotion an Iron Hand should ever feel is hate.
Those who are weak are unworthy to live. The flesh is weak, Ferrus Manus was weak. Only the machine is strong.

If you want to read a good novel about the Iron Hands, I highly recommend "Wrath of Iron". It is one of the better 40k novels.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is basically a huge repressed trauma because of the death of their Primarch.
Ferrus Manus died because he let his emotions get the better of him. As a consequence, the Iron Hands abhor emotion. To them, the flesh is the symbol of human frailty and emotionality. That is why they aspire to replace their human flaws with the superior cold logic of the machine, so they may never fall to the same weakness as their hated Primarch.
The only emotion an Iron Hand should ever feel is hate.
Those who are weak are unworthy to live. The flesh is weak, Ferrus Manus was weak. Only the machine is strong.

If you want to read a good novel about the Iron Hands, I highly recommend "Wrath of Iron". It is one of the better 40k novels.

The novel Meduson makes it clear that this philosophy was not universally accepted in the aftermath of Ferrus's death. It also explains that the full phrase, which was appended by Vulkan during a conversation he and Ferrus had, was "The flesh is weak, but deeds endure." This second half was lost during the Horus Heresy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I can never remember if Orks are as strong as Marines or as tough as Marines. ^^; So you could be right.

Oh a typical ork isn't as strong in the fluff, but stuff like nobs are as strong as marines in power armor, with warbosses being more physically strong than any marine. I just meant in total the race is comparable to the marines and necrons.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I can never remember if Orks are as strong as Marines or as tough as Marines. ^^; So you could be right.

It varies. Ork n00bz seem to start on par with drug-enhanced humans, and then they fight and get bigger and stronger, until they can bitchslap Titus for days.

Are the augments really better than astartes body parts though? then why aren't t skitarii T4 if most of them are bionic?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Are the augments really better than astartes body parts though? then why aren't t skitarii T4 if most of them are bionic?

Because they are a robot with organs, not an Astartes

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Are the augments really better than astartes body parts though? then why aren't t skitarii T4 if most of them are bionic?

According to the Iron Hands they are better. In actuality they're not really all that better

Because they are Hot rodders chrome looks way cooler

And the gorgons humanity almost got them annihilated

 War Kitten wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Are the augments really better than astartes body parts though? then why aren't t skitarii T4 if most of them are bionic?

According to the Iron Hands they are better. In actuality they're not really all that better

They become less weak to flesh-eating viruses, like the nids.
Much better.

Part of the confusion may lie in the insistence of some people to read "better" as "has better stats in the game". The TT is a coarse-grained simulation of the 40K "reality". It's not going to reflect bone-deep fatigue from hours of combat, or persistent muscle tremors from an electrowhip. It's not going to have rules for a stiff shoulder or a trick knee. All of those things are real, but none of them show up in the rules.

While Iron Hands augmetics may not be S5 or T5, to the Iron Hands they are certainly 'better' than flesh. They do not age, they do not feel pain or fatigue. They are not susceptible to disease or poison. They do not grow weaker with intensive use. Bionics are not susceptible to the weaknesses of the flesh that the Iron Hands abhor, and when the bionics do fail, they can be cast aside and replaced. The Iron Hands aren't engaged in bench-pressing contests with unaugmented Astartes. They hate human frailty. I think that many readers of the IH novels would agree that the Iron Hands hate that frailty for multiple reasons:

failure at Istvaan caused by the unwillingness of others to press onward despite casualties, injuries, and exhaustion.

failure at Istvaan of the Iron Hands to be able to prevail alone despite these same casualties, injuries, and exhaustion.

and, truly, their own internalized shame and sorrow that Ferrus Manus was, after all, mortal himself, and unable to survive.

There are glimmers of this in the rules - Vaylund Cal being able to make Devastator squads T5 for example.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Are the augments really better than astartes body parts though? then why aren't t skitarii T4 if most of them are bionic?

Because with the exception of Cassius and Straken, bionics in the game give you a 6+ save of some sort - either a ressurection save (2e to 4e), an invulnerable save (5e) or a Feel no Pain save (6e to 7e) to represent their toughness, rather than increasing a model's T score.