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So one of the leaked things from the Shadow Force Solaq boxes set is the Pinion Battle Demi-Company. It has some shennanigans with Scouts and can make for a lot of Ignores Cover. My question is, can it be used in the Gladius Strike Force as one of the Battle Demi-Companies? My first instinct is to say yes, since it is a Battle Demi-Company. But it is a special kind of one.

Side note: How cool would it be for other Battle Demi-Companies to exist, like a bikes focused one for White Scars?

At the moment, no. The Demi-company is a specific thing and this is not a Demi-company. However, it is possible, that the dataslate for it specifies it counts for a Gladius, in which case it would be a yes.

I hope it includes some language stating it can be a Core Choice in a Gladius, but honestly, how does it not meet the requirement for including 1+ Battle Demi-companies? I am trying to find the image that someone scanned from the German White Dwarf to see what logo it has on it. If it is the Skull with an empty circle on the forehead, it should be able to be used.

It does not meet the requirement because it is not a "Battle Demi-company". It's a "Pinion Battle Demi-company".

 Happyjew wrote:
It does not meet the requirement because it is not a "Battle Demi-company". It's a "Pinion Battle Demi-company".

The language in the Gladius makes it fairly easy to view it either way. Ultimately, this will come down to whether or not it counts as a Core formation. I have strong suspicions it will. Regardless, this force was more than enough reason to get me to buy the Solaq set. I need Sternguard, I need Vanguard. Bought (at 20%+ off on eBay).

Names are important.

For example.
Heavy Flamers are not Heavy weapons.
Assault Cannons are not Assault weapons.
Fire Dragons are not Dragons.
Pinion Battle Demi-Companies are not Battle Demi-Companies.

 Happyjew wrote:
Names are important.

For example.
Heavy Flamers are not Heavy weapons.
Assault Cannons are not Assault weapons.
Fire Dragons are not Dragons.
Pinion Battle Demi-Companies are not Battle Demi-Companies.

But can a C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer be a C'tan Shard for the Conclave of the Burning One?

At this point, all we are referring to is names, not the concepts underlying the names. A Heavy Flamer is still a Flamer of sorts, after all. Fire Dragons represent how one of the aspects of Khain fights like a Dragon (or something like that).

By Name, a Pinion Battle Demi-Company has the name "Battle Demi-Company" in it. Does having an additional word in its name stop it from being in the same category?

Personally, I think this is borrowing after trouble, either way. Discuss it with your local group and let them decide before dedicating yourself to it. They are the ones who will have to deal with it.

A Deimos Predator is not a Predator. A Contemptor Dreadnought is not a Dreadnought. Chapter Master Issodon is not a Chapter Master or a Captain. We could go on and on about what's 'close but not quite' the parts of a Formation. A Formation is very specific about what goes into it and if the name does not match, it does not fit.

Since there is no unit called a C'Tan shard, it is up to the players to houserule is. But it's a house rule, nothing more if they want to use that Formation.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
A Deimos Predator is not a Predator. A Contemptor Dreadnought is not a Dreadnought. Chapter Master Issodon is not a Chapter Master or a Captain. We could go on and on about what's 'close but not quite' the parts of a Formation. A Formation is very specific about what goes into it and if the name does not match, it does not fit.

Since there is no unit called a C'Tan shard, it is up to the players to houserule is. But it's a house rule, nothing more if they want to use that Formation.

So, does this mean that Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts cannot embark on a Drop Pod? It says it can embark one Dreadnought of any type, but since Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts are not Dreadnoughts but Ironclad Dreadnoughts or Venerable Dreadnoughts, they cannot embark.

Technically, it means that Dreadnoughts can't embark either, since they are Dreadnoughts, not "Dreadnoughts of any type".

What else could 'Dreadnoughts of any type' mean?

In your Opening Situation you have a Rule mentioning the name of an object that exists, that is the key factor that can not be overlooked. Not only is it reasonable to assume that the Rule's subject matter is the object that has the same name, but it also prevents broken situations that might form simply because two objects have very similar names. In the counter-argument you just put forth, as an example, there is no such objected called 'Dreadnought of any type' and that is why it is impossible to conclude that the subject matter is an object called 'Dreadnought of any type.' We can then conclude that the words 'of any type' are actually a description of the object in question, and thus things which meet this definition are subject to the Rule.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
A Deimos Predator is not a Predator. A Contemptor Dreadnought is not a Dreadnought. Chapter Master Issodon is not a Chapter Master or a Captain. We could go on and on about what's 'close but not quite' the parts of a Formation. A Formation is very specific about what goes into it and if the name does not match, it does not fit.

Since there is no unit called a C'Tan shard, it is up to the players to houserule is. But it's a house rule, nothing more if they want to use that Formation.

So, does this mean that Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts cannot embark on a Drop Pod? It says it can embark one Dreadnought of any type, but since Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts are not Dreadnoughts but Ironclad Dreadnoughts or Venerable Dreadnoughts, they cannot embark.

Technically, it means that Dreadnoughts can't embark either, since they are Dreadnoughts, not "Dreadnoughts of any type".

Seriously? Yes, a Dreadnought is a type of Dreadnought. Likewise both Ironclad and Venerable Dreadnoughts are Dreadnoughts. They can all embark on a Drop Pod since the pod can carry any type of Dreadnought.

Both the Battle Demi-Company and Pinion Battle Demi-Company are types of Battle Demi-Companies. However the Gladius Strike Force doesn't have the qualifier that you can use any type of Battle Demi-Company. It is quite specific in that only the Battle Demi-Company is listed as an option. No other types of Battle Demi-Companies are listed, and that includes the Pinion Battle Demi-Company. For example, that's why the Terminator Squad in Codex Space Marines specifically lists the three different types of Land Raiders (Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader and Land Raider Redeemer) as transport options. If it just listed a Land Raider as a transport option, you wouldn't be permitted to take a Land Raider Crusader or a Land Raider Redeemer.

 Ghaz wrote:
Seriously? Yes, a Dreadnought is a type of Dreadnought. Likewise both Ironclad and Venerable Dreadnoughts are Dreadnoughts. They can all embark on a Drop Pod since the pod can carry any type of Dreadnought.

Exactly - the "Dreadnought of any type" literally means anything that's a Dreadnought. That includes each and every type, including Deredeos, Contemptors and so on. If the Company Support CP had a "any type of Battle Demi-Company" it would work with the Pinion one, too. That's what the word "ANY" means.

Both the Battle Demi-Company and Pinion Battle Demi-Company are types of Battle Demi-Companies. However the Gladius Strike Force doesn't have the qualifier that you can use any type of Battle Demi-Company. It is quite specific in that only the Battle Demi-Company is listed as an option. No other types of Battle Demi-Companies are listed, and that includes the Pinion Battle Demi-Company. For example, that's why the Terminator Squad in Codex Space Marines specifically lists the three different types of Land Raiders (Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader and Land Raider Redeemer) as transport options. If it just listed a Land Raider as a transport option, you wouldn't be permitted to take a Land Raider Crusader or a Land Raider Redeemer.

Why are you people so hung up on the "Battle Demi-Company" name thing? Have you actually read the Gladius Strike Force rules at ANY point? I'm asking because you're dead wrong on how you build a Gladius SF.
The Gladius Strike Force calls for 1-2 Core formations and 1+ Auxiliary formations. If the Pinion Demi-Company is a Core formation, you will be able to bring 1-2 of those.

The only thing that doesn't work RAW for the Pinion BDC is the Company Support Command Benefit, but I'd assume the Pinion comes with some replacement rule for that or says that it is eligible on the dataslate itself.

Cool, then I can bring a Reclamation Legion. It's a Core Formation. By your rules, it qualifies.

The Core formations right now are a Battle Demi Company, nothing else is listed. Nothing else qualifies. If there are rules about to come out that DO qualify, then they do. But as it stand, they do not exist. Anything else is guesswork unless you provide proof that it works the way you say. You have no current rules to back that up.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Cool, then I can bring a Reclamation Legion. It's a Core Formation. By your rules, it qualifies.

The Core formations right now are a Battle Demi Company, nothing else is listed. Nothing else qualifies. If there are rules about to come out that DO qualify, then they do. But as it stand, they do not exist. Anything else is guesswork unless you provide proof that it works the way you say. You have no current rules to back that up.

Reclamation Legion does not have the correct faction:

All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter.

But you're right regardless, I missed the "Only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment." within the Restrictions paragraph, my mistake.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Cool, then I can bring a Reclamation Legion. It's a Core Formation. By your rules, it qualifies.

The Core formations right now are a Battle Demi Company, nothing else is listed. Nothing else qualifies. If there are rules about to come out that DO qualify, then they do. But as it stand, they do not exist. Anything else is guesswork unless you provide proof that it works the way you say. You have no current rules to back that up.

Once the new WD comes out, we should be able to tell. As of right now, the German images are hard to even get at high resolution to translate. There is a possibility of the Pinion Battle Demi-Company being a Core formation to a completely different Strike Force, but I would be willing to bet it ends up counting as a Core formation for the Gladius.

I only hope it is not restricted to Raven Guard chapter tactics.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I only hope it is not restricted to Raven Guard chapter tactics.

I do. If every chapter can get it, there is no point to it then; Raven Guard are subpar.

Just saw the formation, and since you can sub in Sicarius, Pedro kantor, Cassius, etc. I'm going to assume you can take it for any Chapter.

Don't see anything in the actual formation that says it can be taken in place of a battle Demi company, but there could easily be a page in the book that has a chart showing where they fit in a gladius.

We'll have to wait and see, and if it's not clear even then, discuss it with whom you play with and/or ask the TO.

With one caveat. I hope Raptors get access to it too. But, that's on Forge World to do and I can guarantee that GW will not allow it on what they release.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just saw the formation, and since you can sub in Sicarius, Pedro kantor, Cassius, etc. I'm going to assume you can take it for any Chapter.

Don't see anything in the actual formation that says it can be taken in place of a battle Demi company, but there could easily be a page in the book that has a chart showing where they fit in a gladius.

We'll have to wait and see, and if it's not clear even then, discuss it with whom you play with and/or ask the TO.

Care to say where you saw it? I am betting it is going to be part of its own Strike Force, rather than the Gladius, at this point. Weird that Pedro can be taken as a part of it, since he can't for the regular Battle Demi-Company (despite TECHNICALLY being the First Company Captain in addition to the Chapter Master).

Saw the German version, didn't see any rule stating it could be taken. Most of the rules referenced the scout squads and reserves.

Think you already saw the other post, though, which has some of the info.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Saw the German version, didn't see any rule stating it could be taken. Most of the rules referenced the scout squads and reserves.

Think you already saw the other post, though, which has some of the info.

Yup. Saw the news post after I made that post.

From looking a the pictures, it appears to be a separate formation. I do hope it will have wording prior allowing it as a core choice, but nothing in the images suggests that. Also my German is a little rusty, but it does appear to be vanilla marine, cause it allows subbing in of other captains ie Canto.

Just confirmed from someone who has the Kauyon book, there is no verbiage that lets one take a Stormlance Battle Demi-Company, Hunting Force, or Pinion Battle Demi-Company in a Gladius Strike Force.

Well that's a missed opportunity there. It would have been friggin awesome to have those options alongside the Gladius, like the Windrider Host/Guardian Host that Eldar can choose from.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Well that's a missed opportunity there. It would have been friggin awesome to have those options alongside the Gladius, like the Windrider Host/Guardian Host that Eldar can choose from.

Not really the case as each is a part of its own superdetatachment. For White Scars. its the Scarblade Strike Force:



The Raven Guard have their own superdetachment as well, the Talon Strike Force.

It's weird that the different BDCs from that book can take all the different characters instead of a Captain or Chaplain, regardless of Chapter Tactics, but only certain chapters can take the super detachment. Very bizarre.

Agreed that this was a missed opportunity. Also, all of the other formations in there can't be taken anywhere except by themselves or in their super detachment. I really like most of them.

The fact that the Strike Force Ultra is an auxiliary detachment in the Scarblade force, but not in the Gladius makes me sad.

EDIT: The Raven Guard detachment is almost good enough to make up for their gakky Chapter Tactics.

So do we really want to go back to the days when the only difference between Marine Chapters were the colors they were painted?

Kinda... I mean, as a special snowflake (Astral Claws) I am all sorts of jealous about these. I pulled together a PDF of Raven Guard, White Scars and the original scans of vanilla for easy browsing and yeah, I'm jealous that it's all awesome exclusive stuff for the Decurion. But, the actual Formations aren't restricted, not sure if anyone else noticed that. So, the Formations with their Benefits are available to the rest of the Chapters too. The only restriction is in the super formation page.