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It does make sense, at least to me anyway. These are all codex chapters so none of these formations should be outside the boundaries of what a codex chapter could do. However by being a part of a Chapter-specific superformation is as much an indicator as to the Chapter's modus operandi as is it's Chapter Tactics.

Anyway, we're probably going off-topic for YMDC, so it'd probably be best to continue the discussion in the appropriate News & Rumours thread or in 40K General Discussions.

Nevermind.

 Quickjager wrote:
FOR THE RECORD!

It leaked. Pinion Battle Demi-Company counts as a Core Formation. Enjoy.

Take a look at the full leaks. I can even give you page numbers where the information is absent saying if it was allowed in a Gladius. It's a Core in a Talon, NOT a Gladius. They are not interchangeable sadly.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
FOR THE RECORD!

It leaked. Pinion Battle Demi-Company counts as a Core Formation. Enjoy.

Take a look at the full leaks. I can even give you page numbers where the information is absent saying if it was allowed in a Gladius. It's a Core in a Talon, NOT a Gladius. They are not interchangeable sadly.

The Talon Strike Force presented on these pages is unique to the Raven Guard, but the Formations on the following pages can be used by any army chosen from Codex: Space Marines.

Pinion Battle Demi-Company is a Core Formation and not exclusive to the Talon Strike Force, so from the way it reads? It's still a Core Formation in Gladius Strike Force.

You could have an argument if the 10th and 1st Company Task Forces or the Storm Wing or the Anti-Air Defense Force or the Battle Demi-Company or the Command Formations changed from their current slots in the Gladius Strike Force, but they remain the exact same.

The page it is listed has the table that classifies a formation as Core, Aux, or Command. It says it is core alongside Gladius.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Pinion Battle Demi-Company is a Core Formation and not exclusive to the Talon Strike Force, so from the way it reads? It's still a Core Formation in Gladius Strike Force.

No. It reads as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force. It is not listed as an option for the Gladius Strike Force.

Ahhh I get where you are coming from. Mmmm I missed that because the text is messed up in the pic I'm looking at...

Yes. If Core Formations were interchangeable there would be no need to list the Battle Demi-Company as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force.

That isn't true, but is a moot point.

Yes, it is true. There is no need to list the Battle Demi-Company as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force if the Core Formations are usable by the Gladius, Talon or Scarblade Strike Force. Why assume one Core Formation can be used in any Strike Force and the other two can't?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Pinion Battle Demi-Company is a Core Formation and not exclusive to the Talon Strike Force, so from the way it reads? It's still a Core Formation in Gladius Strike Force.

No. It reads as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force. It is not listed as an option for the Gladius Strike Force.

And the Talon Strike Force, at the very top of the page, has the statement that I posted before:

The Talon Strike Force presented on these pages is unique to the Raven Guard, but the Formations on the following pages can be used by any army chosen from Codex: Space Marines.

At this stage, I have not seen anything to say one way or the other that it would not become a Core Formation in a Gladius Strike Force.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, it is true. There is no need to list the Battle Demi-Company as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force if the Core Formations are usable by the Gladius, Talon or Scarblade Strike Force. Why assume one Core Formation can be used in any Strike Force and the other two can't?

Pretty much.

Though, it would be fun to add a few Space Marine Formations to my Decurion, then, wouldn't it? If it works for Core, then it works for Auxiliary and HQ Choices, too.

Only, the Decurion doesn't list those Formations as an option. And when the Gladius lists its Core options, it also presents the list of units inside the Core Choice, which I do not think the Pinion qualifies with...

Actually since the Pinion Demi-Company allows the Captain to be switched out for non-RG characters. That means the Talon Strike Force cannot be taken as it is exclusive to RG.

So RAI Pinion was meant to be able to be taken as part of a Gladius. Further developments awaiting.

EDIT: Nevermind, stated something already said.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Pinion Battle Demi-Company is a Core Formation and not exclusive to the Talon Strike Force, so from the way it reads? It's still a Core Formation in Gladius Strike Force.

No. It reads as a Core Formation in the Talon Strike Force. It is not listed as an option for the Gladius Strike Force.

And the Talon Strike Force, at the very top of the page, has the statement that I posted before:

The Talon Strike Force presented on these pages is unique to the Raven Guard, but the Formations on the following pages can be used by any army chosen from Codex: Space Marines.

What this means is that those formations can be used by any Chapter outside of any Strike Force. Remember - they're still detachments of their own, and that is what is being referenced here! An army may contain a Librarium Conclave of Ultramarines, a Skyhammer Annihilation Force of Iron Fists and a Pinion of Salamanders.

At this stage, I have not seen anything to say one way or the other that it would not become a Core Formation in a Gladius Strike Force.

Try the 7th Edition Codex: Adeptus Astartes - the Gladius Strike Force says in Restrictions:

Only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment. All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter.

It limits you to exactly the Formations listed "here" (as in: the Gladius Strike Force "FOC") - so it clearly excludes formations from a different book. The only way to get around that would be for the Campaign Book to say that you add this formation to the list of available formations for the Gladius SF. But it doesn't from what we can tell.

I have scoured the book. There is no statement that says any of the Kauyon formations can be taken as part of a Gladius Strike Force. It is no big deal to me, I don't run a Gladius. I would if I could take a Pinion BDC or Scarblade BDC though. I will be making room for a Raptor Wing formation, though. Guaranteed arrival from reserves and some rerolls. Very nice.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I have scoured the book. There is no statement that says any of the Kauyon formations can be taken as part of a Gladius Strike Force. It is no big deal to me, I don't run a Gladius. I would if I could take a Pinion BDC or Scarblade BDC though. I will be making room for a Raptor Wing formation, though. Guaranteed arrival from reserves and some rerolls. Very nice.

What, you've got to be kidding me! A book published way before another does not say that you cannot use things that were not published yet?

Shocking!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Actually since the Pinion Demi-Company allows the Captain to be switched out for non-RG characters. That means the Talon Strike Force cannot be taken as it is exclusive to RG.

Restrictions:This Detachment must include at least one Core choice and one Auxiliary choice. It may include up to one more Core choice, up to two Command choices and any number of additional Auxiliary choices, in any combination. Only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment. All units in this Detachment must be Drawn from the Raven Guard.

Do non-Raven Guard models have Chapter Tactics: Raven Guard?

Detachment refers to the Talon Strike Force; please re-read what I wrote I never said what you are implying. Check it twice.

 Quickjager wrote:
Detachment refers to the Talon Strike Force; please re-read what I wrote I never said what you are implying. Check it twice.

Actually you did.

The Talon Strike Force detachment has a specific restriction:
All units in this Detachment must be drawn from the Raven Guard. What is the only thing which identifies models as "Raven Guard"?
Chapter Tactics: Raven Guard.

So while the Pinion Demi-Company(and Battle Demi-Company) can both take non-Raven Guard characters, you could not do the swap in the Talon Strike Force Detachment because those characters do not have Chapter Tactics: Raven Guard.

I never said non-RG chapter could take Talon Strike Force. Point it out.

 Quickjager wrote:
I never said non-RG chapter could take Talon Strike Force. Point it out.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

I was under the impression that you were trying to say that the Talon Strike Force cannot be taken as intended because the Pinion Demi-Company can swap out the Captain for non-RG characters.

I was responding to your post, with that specific understanding of your statement. Is that not what you were trying to say?

You're getting Formations confused with parts of the Talon. The FORMATIONS can be used by anyone as Formations. My Astral Claws can use the Pinion if they wanted to because it is just a Formation. They can't build a Gladius out of it because it's not part of the Gladius. They can't use the Talon Detachment because they're not Raven Guard. Remember that the Formations listed serve two parts of building an army. As separate For,actions and as part of the larger Decurion styles and you choose how to use them as you build the army. That's why they have options for non Raven Guard units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I have scoured the book. There is no statement that says any of the Kauyon formations can be taken as part of a Gladius Strike Force. It is no big deal to me, I don't run a Gladius. I would if I could take a Pinion BDC or Scarblade BDC though. I will be making room for a Raptor Wing formation, though. Guaranteed arrival from reserves and some rerolls. Very nice.

What, you've got to be kidding me! A book published way before another does not say that you cannot use things that were not published yet?

Shocking!

Kauyon makes no mention of being able to use the formations from the Kauyon book in the Gladius Strike Force. If it had a statement like "these formations may be taken as Auxilliary choices for the Gladius Strike Force" it would override the Gladius's rule stating only formations listed in the C:SM may be taken as part of a Gladius.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I never said non-RG chapter could take Talon Strike Force. Point it out.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

I was under the impression that you were trying to say that the Talon Strike Force cannot be taken as intended because the Pinion Demi-Company can swap out the Captain for non-RG characters.

I was responding to your post, with that specific understanding of your statement. Is that not what you were trying to say?

Yea, basically we are on the same side of the argument.

the whole "can swap out X or Y" is simply irrelevant to any of this. The Librarius Conclave is not "Ultramarine-exclusive" just because the only unique character you can swap into it is an Ultramarine.

Read the Restrictions paragraph of your detachment, it literally exists just to tell you if and how you are limited in the use of this detachment. This applies to both the Strike Forces as well as all the other detachments.

For the Strike Forces it means that they can only consist of units of the same Faction and Chapter Tactics (or none, see most vehicles) and use only formations explicitly listed within the Strike Force.

Does that mean you can't take a specific formation with whatever Chapter Tactic you like? No! You're free to use them as long as their Restrictions do not tell you otherwise or the unit composition forces you to take units with a specific (pre-set) Chapter Tactic. If you have to bring the White Scars unique Chapter Master, you're stuck with White Scars as your Chapter Tactic of course.

Quick overview:

Gladius SF can be used with any Chapter Tactics and allows the following formations:

Core: Battle Demi-Company

Command: Strike Force Command, Reclusiam Command Squad, Librarius Conclave

Auxiliary: Armoured Task Force, 1st Company Task Force, Anti-Air Defence Force, 10th Company Task Force, Storm Wing, Suppression Force, Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, Land Raider Spearhead

You can use all of these formations on their own as detachments with any Chapter Tactics.


Scarblade SF can be used only with Chapter Tactics: White Scars and allows the following formations:

Core: Battle Demi-Company, Stormlance Battle Demi-Company, Hunting Force

Command: Strike Force Command, Reclusiam Command Squad, Librarius Conclave

Auxiliary: Armoured Task Force, 1st Company Task Force, Anti-Air Defence Force, 10th Company Task Force, Storm Wing, Suppression Force, Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, Land Raider Spearhead, Strike Force Ultra, Stormbringer Squadron, Speartip Strike

You can use all of these formations on their own as detachments with any Chapter Tactics.


Talon SF can be used only with Chapter Tactics: Raven Guard and allows the following formations:

Core: Battle Demi-Company, Pinion Battle Demi-Company

Command: Strike Force Command, Reclusiam Command Squad, Librarius Conclave

Auxiliary: Armoured Task Force, 1st Company Task Force, Anti-Air Defence Force, 10th Company Task Force, Storm Wing, Suppression Force, Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, Land Raider Spearhead, Shadowstrike Kill Team, Bladewing Assault Brotherhood, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Raptor Wing, Shadow Force

You can use all of these formations on their own as detachments with any Chapter Tactics.

I've highlighted the differences from the Gladius SF for your convenience.

Any formation/detachment not listed above simply can't be taken as part of any of the three Strike Forces, but can be added as their own independent detachment - but they won't benefit from the Strike Force command benefits and of course might come with their own restrictions.

So Space Marines now have a ridiculous amount of Formations to choose from if you don't go for a pure Strike Force army list. Which is awesome!