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 dusara217 wrote:
Also, "why would they look on a Russian figure (any Russian figure) fondly?" Gee, I don't know, given current events, why would Americans look on a Muslim figure (any Muslim figure) fondly?

The point was; They're not gonna be happy (Ukrainians with Russia, nor Middle Eastern Muslims with America). Go ahead and moan and whine all you want, but I get the profound sense they just don't give a gak that you're offended something you care about is being disrespected by someone with little to no reason to give a damn what you think. Blowing up peoples homes tends to do that.

 LordofHats wrote:
Further, given current events, why would anyone in Ukraine look on a major Russian figure (any Russian figure) fondly? It's like watching a bunch of Uber 'Muricans get pissed some guy in the Middle East is burning an American flag. It screams "out of touch" and "just not getting it."

Ukraine and Russia were not seperate for most of their history. Most major 'Russian' figures are figures of the Russian state as much as they are of the Ukrainian state. Lenin was the founder of the Soviet Union, which makes him the founder of not only modern Russia, but also of modern Ukraine. Supressing communism is not democratic, it is a sign of fascism.
That aside, there are plenty of Ukrainians who do look fondly on Russian figures. Until a few years ago, they were not Russian figures at all, they were shared. The division along very arbitrary ethnic lines (often the only difference between Russians and Ukrainians is how they call themselves) is something very recent and mainly driven by rabid nationalists on both sides. It leads to ridiculous circumstances where some ethnic Russians figures can be considered "Ukrainian" while some ethnic Ukrainian figures can be considered "Russian". It is a division based on politics, not on actual ethnic traditions and self-identification.
The reason why Ukrainians would still look fondly on Russian figures is because they are also Ukrainian figures. They represent the history and tradition of Ukraine, and plenty of Ukrainians are apparently fond enough of their tradition and history, as the civil war and pro-Russia protests show. Not all Ukrainians want to throw everything away to get to the West. The democratic thing to do would be the decide the future of Ukraine with elections and referendum, not with coups, intimidation of opponents and destruction of cultural heritage.



As a side note, the Guardian has a nice article on the subject of destruction of Soviet monuments:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/soviet-ussr-monuments-should-be-protected

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ukraine and Russia were not seperate for most of their history.

And? Ukraine has been a distinctly identifiable region since at least the 16th Century. Ukrainian Nationalism is as old as the 18th (older if we choose to include Cossack Nationalism as part of Ukrainian Nationalism). To automatically assume Ukraine should see Russia part of itself is an inherently Imperialist mind set, which is no doubt bound to only further instigate negative feelings on the part of people who do not consider themselves to be Russian. It completely ignores the complex history of the region and the people in it.

Supressing communism is not democratic, it is a sign of fascism.

This is oxymoronic. If I hold a vote and that vote says "lets suppress Communism" that vote is completely democratic and not even remotely fascist. The only way to come to the above conclusion is to have no idea what Democracy or Fascism are. Now, it might be anti-Liberty, in the sense that any sort of suppression innately involves infringing of liberty, but liberty is not an absolute in democracy.

The division along very arbitrary ethnic lines (often the only difference between Russians and Ukrainians is how they call themselves)

That's the same BS logic people use to declare there's no such thing as a Palestinian, or a Kurd, or an Armenian.

It leads to ridiculous circumstances where some ethnic Russians figures can be considered "Ukrainian" while some ethnic Ukrainian figures can be considered "Russian".

That's more the result of Russia's own complex history than anything Ukrainians have done specifically. Especially with both nations seeing Kievan Rus as integral to their ancient origins, and the fact that the region of Ukraine has constantly shifted back and forth between control of numerous states, 'Russia' being one of the most significant.

The reason why Ukrainians would still look fondly on Russian figures is because they are also Ukrainian figures.

Some Ukrainians would seem to disagree.

destruction of cultural heritage.

It's only cultural destruction because you disagree with it. Recasting a Lenin Statue as Darth Vader is chalk full of culture. Just not necessarily culture you like. And that's setting aside of course that there's nothing culturally significant about Lenin Statue #78914, making it's destruction utterly meaningless in any scale of the scheme of things. Let me know if someone tries to blow up Red Square, or the Church of Ascension.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ukraine and Russia were not seperate for most of their history.

And? Ukraine has been a distinctly identifiable region since at least the 16th Century. Ukrainian Nationalism is as old as the 18th (older if we choose to include Cossack Nationalism as part of Ukrainian Nationalism). To automatically assume Ukraine should see Russia part of itself is an inherently Imperialist mind set, which is no doubt bound to only further instigate negative feelings on the part of people who do not consider themselves to be Russian. It completely ignores the complex history of the region and the people in it.

Cossacks are an entirely different and also complicated matter. They are their own distinctive group, different from Ukrainians or Russians. You can't equate Cossack nationalism to Ukrainian nationalism.
Regardless, Ukraine (meaning borderland) has been the name a distinctly identifiable region since at least 1187, it was the name for the regions at the border of the Rus and later also the Polish state. The origin of the Ukrainians as an ethnic group and Ukraine as an official name for their land is much later, it only begins in the 19th century (1830 is the first mention of Ukrainians as a distinct ethnic group iirc). Regardless, the definition of Ukraine and Ukrainians has also always been very flexible, just like the borders. Parts of the region historically considered Ukraine are in the Russian Federation, Galicia never was considered Ukraine until 1939 for example, Crimea never until 1954 etc. Russia, Ukraine etc. are all very flexible terms. There is no imperialism in that, it is simple fact that large parts of Ukraine have been a region of Russia for most of their history, and that these parts of Ukraine and Russia were one single state and nation. That is not imperialism.
The only imperialism comes from Moscow, which since the 13th century considers itself the rightful ruler of all Rus lands to the East and to the West (hence the double-headed eagle). Imperialism would be to say, that just because Ukraine is Rus land, it should be ruled by Moscow as part of the Russian Federation. I am perfectly fine with there being more than one Rus state, it was that way in the past too. I just don't like it that one of those states tries to do away with its history and origins, just to establish itself as independent. If you want to call that imperialistic, go ahead. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone, right?

 LordofHats wrote:

Supressing communism is not democratic, it is a sign of fascism.

This is oxymoronic. If I hold a vote and that vote says "lets suppress Communism" that vote is completely democratic and not even remotely fascist. The only way to come to the above conclusion is to have no idea what Democracy or Fascism are. Now, it might be anti-Liberty, in the sense that any sort of suppression innately involves infringing of liberty, but liberty is not an absolute in democracy.

Such a vote would not be democratic, it would be dictatorship of the majority. There is a reason that most democratic states have safeguards against such abuse of the democratic system. It violates the fundamental democratic principle of freedom of expression. Remember that Adolf Hitler was also voted into power, just because you vote on something doesn't mean that the outcome can't be be fascist.

 LordofHats wrote:

The division along very arbitrary ethnic lines (often the only difference between Russians and Ukrainians is how they call themselves)

That's the same BS logic people use to declare there's no such thing as a Palestinian, or a Kurd, or an Armenian.

It is not.
Ukrainians are very real. The only thing I am saying is that the only distinction between Ukrainians and Russians in many cases is self-identification. Many Ukrainians have Russian, rather than Ukrainian as their first language, and since Ukrainians and Russians are culturally and genetically indistinguishable, having the same historical ancestors, that makes the only remaining distinction one of choice. There are families in Ukraine where the parents are Russian, one son is also Russian, but the other Ukrainian. It is all a matter of self-identification.
This is not the case with Kurds and Armenians, which are very clearly defined ethnic groups surrounded by unrelated ethnic groups.

 LordofHats wrote:

It leads to ridiculous circumstances where some ethnic Russians figures can be considered "Ukrainian" while some ethnic Ukrainian figures can be considered "Russian".

That's more the result of Russia's own complex history than anything Ukrainians have done specifically. Especially with both nations seeing Kievan Rus as integral to their ancient origins, and the fact that the region of Ukraine has constantly shifted back and forth between control of numerous states, 'Russia' being one of the most significant.

Kievan Rus was the first Rus state. Which makes it the first Russian and Ukrainian state. Both nations were one back then. Russians and Ukrainians are modern subgroups of the medieval Rus people. Making a clear distinction before the 19th century, that is revisionism because a seperate Ukrainian nationality did not exist yet, they were Ruthenians, a term which also applied to Russians, Belarusians, Rusyn etc. It is complicated, but it shows that Russians and Ukrainians are not clearly defined groups.

 LordofHats wrote:

The reason why Ukrainians would still look fondly on Russian figures is because they are also Ukrainian figures.

Some Ukrainians would seem to disagree.

Indeed they do. And others do not. Ukraine is a divided country, it always has been. There are massive historical and cultural differences between the historically Polish west and the historically Russian east. Only in name is it a single country.

 LordofHats wrote:

destruction of cultural heritage.

It's only cultural destruction because you disagree with it. Recasting a Lenin Statue as Darth Vader is chalk full of culture. Just not necessarily culture you like. And that's setting aside of course that there's nothing culturally significant about Lenin Statue #78914, making it's destruction utterly meaningless in any scale of the scheme of things. Let me know if someone tries to blow up Red Square, or the Church of Ascension.

Maybe to you there is nothing culturally significant about that Lenin statue, but to some there is.
I would have no objections against replacing one of the many statues of Lenin with a statue of Darth Vader (feth, that is awesome), but the problem is not this one statue, it is a systematic destruction of Lenin statues and other historical Soviet symbols.

wow...
Did I really just spend 2 hours writing a post on Dakka?
I need to get a life

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Did I really just spend 2 hours writing a post on Dakka?
I need to get a life

I think we've all been there Just don't want to admit it...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Supressing communism is not democratic, it is a sign of fascism.

This is oxymoronic. If I hold a vote and that vote says "lets suppress Communism" that vote is completely democratic and not even remotely fascist. The only way to come to the above conclusion is to have no idea what Democracy or Fascism are. Now, it might be anti-Liberty, in the sense that any sort of suppression innately involves infringing of liberty, but liberty is not an absolute in democracy.

Such a vote would not be democratic, it would be dictatorship of the majority. There is a reason that most democratic states have safeguards against such abuse of the democratic system. It violates the fundamental democratic principle of freedom of expression. Remember that Adolf Hitler was also voted into power, just because you vote on something doesn't mean that the outcome can't be be fascist.

When voted into power, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party were effectively "just another political party".

And honestly? You really don't seem to understand that "voting" is a democratic function. You need to grasp this critical fact and stop tossing terms like "dictatorship" and "fascism" around.

Dictatorship of the majority is an inherently aspect of democracy (or as Benjamin Martin said, "why should I trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away" ).

Instilling safe guards against it is why there are no pure democracies in the world. Mostly Republics and Parliamentary systems but even in those systems you can find examples of dictatorship of the Majority (look how long it took the US to repeal Jim Crow and Segregation, nearly 100 years). EDIT: We also have a thread right now on these very boards about issues in the United Kingdom that cover this exact topic.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

Yes, absolutely. Next question.


feth Marx. feth Lenin. feth Communism. feth the Soviets.

Russian Imperialism kept Eastern Europe as an occupied region for decades, was responsible for the deaths of millions via starvation, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

It's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim that voting is fascism instead of democracy at work.

TTW85 votes for Vader statue. TTW85 is a dirty fascist. Yay!! I'm a fascist because I voted!!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Supressing communism is not democratic, it is a sign of fascism.

This is oxymoronic. If I hold a vote and that vote says "lets suppress Communism" that vote is completely democratic and not even remotely fascist. The only way to come to the above conclusion is to have no idea what Democracy or Fascism are. Now, it might be anti-Liberty, in the sense that any sort of suppression innately involves infringing of liberty, but liberty is not an absolute in democracy.

Such a vote would not be democratic, it would be dictatorship of the majority. There is a reason that most democratic states have safeguards against such abuse of the democratic system. It violates the fundamental democratic principle of freedom of expression. Remember that Adolf Hitler was also voted into power, just because you vote on something doesn't mean that the outcome can't be be fascist.

When voted into power, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party were effectively "just another political party".

And honestly? You really don't seem to understand that "voting" is a democratic function. You need to grasp this critical fact and stop tossing terms like "dictatorship" and "fascism" around.

To be entirely fair to Iron_Captain, a large part of most fascists regimes platform before they gained power was to be "tough on communism".

That's not really an integral aspect of a Fascist Government though. In the 20s and 30s, everyone was tough on communism except for communists! Fascist states only stand out because they went so far as to violently stamp it out, but violently stamping out political movements with other ideas is what Fascism does and they stamped out a lot more than just Communists. Fascism isn't against communism, it's against anything not Fascism.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

Yes, absolutely. Next question.


feth Marx. feth Lenin. feth Communism. feth the Soviets.

Russian Imperialism kept Eastern Europe as an occupied region for decades, was responsible for the deaths of millions via starvation, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

I have no idea what Noam Chomsky has to do with Russian nationalism, but since he is one of the most respected scholars in the world and the founder of modern linguistics, I will take that as a compliment.
Also, "collective individual"? You are starting to mess things up. And if you really are of the opinion that banning a political ideology is freedom, you truly scare me. But for now I will just assume Poe's Law. (please say it is Poe's Law).

timetowaste85 wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim that voting is fascism instead of democracy at work.

TTW85 votes for Vader statue. TTW85 is a dirty fascist. Yay!! I'm a fascist because I voted!!

no setting up straw man, that is mean.
That is not what I said. The claim was that something was not fascist because it was voted on. My argument was that even things that have been voted on can be fascist, not that voting is a form of fascism.

LordofHats wrote:That's not really an integral aspect of a Fascist Government though. In the 20s and 30s, everyone was tough on communism except for communists! Fascist states only stand out because they went so far as to violently stamp it out, but violently stamping out political movements with other ideas is what Fascism does and they stamped out a lot more than just Communists. Fascism isn't against communism, it's against anything not Fascism.

Fascism is a lot more against communism than it is against others. How often did Hitler or Mussolini rage against the evils of conservatism or capitalism rather than 'jewish-bolshevist-communism' I ask you? Fascism is not necessarily against anything not fascism, as fascists have worked with other political groups in the past. Anti-leftist and anti-communist rhetoric on the other hand has been an integral part of every fascist party ever.

And what will the Ukrainians do when Communism (maybe) return.
After the 1917 revolution, many monuments and churches blown up.We think it is a new time. But no. Now everything is newly renovated. Now break communist. Just leave it alone monuments and buildings
For the sake of vague political rushing destroy cultural and historical heritage
Due to the fact that at the moment they do not like communism, they expunged a century of history
due to the fact that they do not like Russian, they crossed out the whole nation with culture and history, replacing it on the fairy tale about ancient Ukrainians who dug the black sea
I'm worried about what is happening in Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. This is not the imperialist ambitions as they come up. it is an experience for them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chossing Darth Vader is protest against political situation. apathy and mistrust of authorities.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
And what will the Ukrainians do when Communism (maybe) return.

Yes we know RUS wants the Donbas industrial clusters, the ship building port that can actually build aircraft carriers/amphib assault ships, and that RUS cultural psychology view Ukraine as nothing more than a substate in open rebellion. The entire world know that Big Poot wants to reconquer the territory, and the entire world is WELL aware that RUS shot down a (nother) civilian airliner. MH17 hello what?

Get over it.

You cannot have Ukraine. You cannot revive the Russian Empire. Lenin was a goddamned monster. Stalin was even worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I have no idea what Noam Chomsky has to do with Russian nationalism, but since he is one of the most respected scholars in the world and the founder of modern linguistics

BWUAHAHAHAAHAHAA!

You are serious? "Respected"?!?!??!?!? He's universally despised outside of anti-Western far-left communist circles. He hasn't published any worthy research in over 30 years. Name one concrete contribution Chomsky has made to academic, technology, research, or progress forward? Just another obstructionist bolshevik throwing "whataboutism" around like its meaningful.

Ha, "father of modern linguistics" HA! You drinking your own kool aid, bruh.

I think that's being a bit overly mean to Lenin. By the time he was actually in a position to really get anything he really wanted to do done, he was medically incapacitated and all his friends were busy burying knifes in his back as they exploited his name and image for their own ends. Which isn't to say he was a nice guy (Red Terror is probably the living epitome of "Nice Job Breaking it Hero"), but Lenin wasn't much worse than a lot of other people of his era considering he was trying to run Revolutionary Russia. And the sad part is, that many of Lenin's darker deeds were probably for the best and would have worked out better if a guy like Stalin hadn't been patiently waiting in the corner the whole time.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
And what will the Ukrainians do when Communism (maybe) return.

Yes we know RUS wants the Donbas industrial clusters, the ship building port that can actually build aircraft carriers/amphib assault ships, and that RUS cultural psychology view Ukraine as nothing more than a substate in open rebellion. The entire world know that Big Poot wants to reconquer the territory, and the entire world is WELL aware that RUS shot down a (nother) civilian airliner. MH17 hello what?

Get over it.

You cannot have Ukraine. You cannot revive the Russian Empire. Lenin was a goddamned monster. Stalin was even worse.

industry? you know, what Russia lives on sale of oil-gas and taxes? the industry - too weak reason to interfere to Donbass.
why I "interfere" with affairs of other country?
many players in game online with whom I played - were gone when "operation against terrorists" began mad
we see refugees from Ukraine near ourselves, my neighbor has a brother. His house was looted by Right Sector that sold and to receive money.
In the summer of 2013 my uncle visited to Kiev, but today he can be arrested as a Putin's agent there.
On Donbass there was no military assistance of Russia. rebels hate Putin for it, call Russia the traitor.
You see a situation through mass media which copy without check of a baize from the Ukrainian authorities. I see it more really (not 100% of course, but anyway).

and take your time with the announcement who shot down the plane. let's wait for the final report of investigation.

 Freakazoitt wrote:


and take your time with the announcement who shot down the plane. let's wait for the final report of investigation.

AFAIK they finished the primary investigation and determined it was shot down by a Russian made surface to air (and not air-to-air) missile most consistent with that in use by the Buk system.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34511973

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

Yes, absolutely. Next question.


feth Marx. feth Lenin. feth Communism. feth the Soviets.

Russian Imperialism kept Eastern Europe as an occupied region for decades, was responsible for the deaths of millions via starvation, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

I personally don't hate communism that much (France always had a lot of commies, and never made them enemies of the state). I just think it can't work because Humans aren't altruists. Our current system will eventually crush under its own weight as well, and we'll need to find another idea.

Plus communism =/= Russian Imperialism, imho. (And American Imperialism isn't better )

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

You do realise that this is how a very large proportion of the world feels about the US? Between military interventions in Africa and the Middle East, and the establishment of huge tax free manufacturing sites in the East that see hundreds of thousands of workers work for below living wages, and with no export taxes to allow the governments to invest in education, health or housing, the US is far more guilty of your accusation than Russia.
Lenin stood for the rights of the working man against a sovereignty and won. He set the foundations for every one to prosper by hard work. Ideals that are very similar to the US. Those ideals never came to fruition we know, but he is hardly the appropriate symbol for Ukrainians to be attacking.

It's also very interesting to see so many Americans, coming from a country that at my last check has 14 of the top 15 universities in the world, loose all respect, ability to consider a rational counter argument, and show so much ignorance at the mere mention of Russia.

As well as all great people, Lenin made also bad affairs for the sake of the prime targets. Revolution was attempt to accelerate transition from slave existence of most of people to normal life.
And a lot of things were made. Life of simple people at the tsar was is intolerable heavy, without chances of improvement. Someone speaks about great Russian culture and literature at the tsar. But what the hell it is necessary when 90% of the population weren't able to read? It not the great culture, is great illiteracy. At Bolsheviks the majority got chance to choose to itself a way, there is a wish to be whom, to study, live but not to survive. Unfortunately, then the socialist world started lagging behind the rest.

 JamesY wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

You do realise that this is how a very large proportion of the world feels about the US? Between military interventions in Africa and the Middle East, and the establishment of huge tax free manufacturing sites in the East that see hundreds of thousands of workers work for below living wages, and with no export taxes to allow the governments to invest in education, health or housing, the US is far more guilty of your accusation than Russia.
Lenin stood for the rights of the working man against a sovereignty and won. He set the foundations for every one to prosper by hard work. Ideals that are very similar to the US. Those ideals never came to fruition we know, but he is hardly the appropriate symbol for Ukrainians to be attacking.

It's also very interesting to see so many Americans, coming from a country that at my last check has 14 of the top 15 universities in the world, loose all respect, ability to consider a rational counter argument, and show so much ignorance at the mere mention of Russia.

That's sort of our shtick.
Lenin was not a nice man by any measure, but he could have done a lot worse. Stalin, on the other hand, was a fething murderous psychopath.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

You do realise that this is how a very large proportion of the world feels about the US? Between military interventions in Africa and the Middle East, and the establishment of huge tax free manufacturing sites in the East that see hundreds of thousands of workers work for below living wages, and with no export taxes to allow the governments to invest in education, health or housing, the US is far more guilty of your accusation than Russia.
Lenin stood for the rights of the working man against a sovereignty and won. He set the foundations for every one to prosper by hard work. Ideals that are very similar to the US. Those ideals never came to fruition we know, but he is hardly the appropriate symbol for Ukrainians to be attacking.

It's also very interesting to see so many Americans, coming from a country that at my last check has 14 of the top 15 universities in the world, loose all respect, ability to consider a rational counter argument, and show so much ignorance at the mere mention of Russia.

That's sort of our shtick.
Lenin was not a nice man by any measure, but he could have done a lot worse. Stalin, on the other hand, was a fething murderous psychopath.

It's your schtick? Oh, never mind then. If it's your schtick that means it's obviously above reproach

But of course, especially from those damn communists! *holds picture of Reagan closer*

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
But of course, especially from those damn communists! *holds picture of Reagan closer*

REEAAGAAAAAANNN!!! *shakes fist*




Seriously though, some of the posts in this thread, mentioning no names, are ridiculously hyperbolic.

We get it, you don't like communism. You cannot refer to people as "Just another obstructionist bolshevik" whilst maintaining any semblance of reasonable discussion.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

The ban of all communistic is it a freedom?

, and attempted to crush the collective individual potential of entire nations. Stop with your Chomskyesque Ruskie nationalist "whataboutism."

Thanks.

You do realise that this is how a very large proportion of the world feels about the US? Between military interventions in Africa and the Middle East, and the establishment of huge tax free manufacturing sites in the East that see hundreds of thousands of workers work for below living wages, and with no export taxes to allow the governments to invest in education, health or housing, the US is far more guilty of your accusation than Russia.
Lenin stood for the rights of the working man against a sovereignty and won. He set the foundations for every one to prosper by hard work. Ideals that are very similar to the US. Those ideals never came to fruition we know, but he is hardly the appropriate symbol for Ukrainians to be attacking.

It's also very interesting to see so many Americans, coming from a country that at my last check has 14 of the top 15 universities in the world, loose all respect, ability to consider a rational counter argument, and show so much ignorance at the mere mention of Russia.

That's sort of our shtick.
Lenin was not a nice man by any measure, but he could have done a lot worse. Stalin, on the other hand, was a fething murderous psychopath.

Lenin was a very, very nice man measured against those who came before and after him. Tsar Nicholas was a opressive despot who let the people starve to death while he was eating of golden plates, Stalin was a opressive despot who let the people starve to death to get rid of potential political opponents. Lenin at least tried to set up a democratic system and had the excuse of a devastating civil war when the people starved to death.
Lenin had many genuinely good plans and ideas, which were never realised because he became ill and afterwards Stalin destroyed all of his work (Before his death, Lenin actually tried to warn the other revolutionaries for Stalin. Unfortenately Stalin intercepted the letter) Lenin was turned into a symbol of a regime he himself would have despised. He is a bit of a sad character really.

Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I have no idea what Noam Chomsky has to do with Russian nationalism, but since he is one of the most respected scholars in the world and the founder of modern linguistics

BWUAHAHAHAAHAHAA!

You are serious? "Respected"?!?!??!?!? He's universally despised outside of anti-Western far-left communist circles. He hasn't published any worthy research in over 30 years. Name one concrete contribution Chomsky has made to academic, technology, research, or progress forward? Just another obstructionist bolshevik throwing "whataboutism" around like its meaningful.

Ha, "father of modern linguistics" HA! You drinking your own kool aid, bruh.

Nice try, but now you went too far out. It you go too extreme it doesn't look believable anymore.
Here, this is from the Massachutets Institute of Technology: https://mit150.mit.edu/infinite-history/noam-chomsky

Noam Chomsky is an Institute Professor and professor of linguistics emeritus at MIT, widely known as the father of modern linguistics, a philosopher, prolific author, and globally influential political activist.
He is one of the most widely quoted intellectuals living today and probably one of the most interviewed.
Professor Chomsky holds a PhD in linguistics from the University of Pennsylvania; he joined the faculty at MIT in 1955 and was appointed full professor in 1961.

Still no idea what this guy has to do with Russian nationalism though.

Linguistics.... Lingu- Oh. Right. One of those fields where people just make things up right?

/jkacademicsjokes

 LordofHats wrote:
Linguistics.... Lingu- Oh. Right. One of those fields where people just make things up right?

/jkacademicsjokes

Yeah. No way near as important as trollogy.

Ukraine: 'Chewbacca' arrested during 'Darth Vader' election campaign
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34645605
Note - Darth Vader won the election.

 loki old fart wrote:
Ukraine: 'Chewbacca' arrested during 'Darth Vader' election campaign
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34645605
Note - Darth Vader won the election.

Well.

That was a thing.

Emperor Palpatine takes City Council seat in Ukraine’s Odessa

https://www.rt.com/news/319792-star-wars-elections-ukraine/