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Erik_Morkai wrote:Onto me... Lance works period. There is no advanced versus basic because Lance is not actually lowering the value of resulting from Quantum shield. If another enemy fires your AV is still 13 if the lance fails.
13 to 12 sounds like changing to me. Lowering isn't the problem, it is the changing. They both change the AV of the target.
Erik_Morkai wrote:If the lance mechanism was similar to a Markerlight, say tag a vehicule and lower it's armor for someone else. THEN the rules would be in conflict beause one directly affects the other and advanced would take over basic.
Multiple Modifiers would kick in, not Basic vs Advanced. Subtractives are applied before set values. 13 is a value set by Quantum Shielding, it is no longer +2 AV. So it is doing the same thing as Lance.
Erik_Morkai wrote:But that is not the case. QS says AV counts as 13 and it is 13. Lance says ANYTHING above 12 is 12. Lance does not affect QS, lance affects the weapon with the lance attribute. Is 13 greater than 12? Yes, then the weapon rolls vs 12.
But if it is 12, it is not 13, therefore QS is not doing its job.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:How is this actually so hard to understand?
You have quantum shielding, it counts your av as 13. I have lance, it says that IF you have an av above 12, it counts as 12.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Lance has a listed prerequisite, meaning that there has to be other factors present prior to its use. QS has no specific predetermining factors allowing it to function, and no rule stating that it would override other set values should they occur.
Actually, QS does have a specific predetermining factor, lack of being Penetrated. Until Lance Penetrates it, QS counts the AV as 13.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:What you say above is that set modifiers dont care when they apply, lance actually does. That is where the rule lies in lance overriding other set values, in order for lance to activate the other set modifier in this instance HAS to already be active.
No, Lance does not care about WHEN it applies, it cares what the target has, there is a difference.
And no, Multiple Modifiers still do not care in what order in time the modifications are applied to the model. If Lance was -2, instead, QS' Set Value would still trump it, even if Lance came in after the fact.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
I feel like the point of a debate is to gain information and arrive at an end state, whether or not it is in your best interest. The point is not to be disagreeable but rather to foster a sound discussion.
Personally, I feel that this is like talking to a wall. From reading this thread it appears as though the vast majority of individuals here and tournament organizers agree that the rules of lance apply over the rules of quantum shielding ;a stance that I agree on (prior to playing eldar even).
To me, both at first glance of the rules and upon further investigation, that is evident.
anticitizen013 wrote: I feel like the point of a debate is to gain information and arrive at an end state, whether or not it is in your best interest. The point is not to be disagreeable but rather to foster a sound discussion.
Personally, I feel that this is like talking to a wall. From reading this thread it appears as though the vast majority of individuals here and tournament organizers agree that the rules of lance apply over the rules of quantum shielding ;a stance that I agree on (prior to playing eldar even).
To me, both at first glance of the rules and upon further investigation, that is evident.
Can you elucidate as to why?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Show me where Quantum Shield has the Immune to Lance clause.
Land Raider Achilles has it and can ignore the effects. Some vehicules have it. Quantum Shield does not. Permissive environment. Quantum Shield does not have the permission to ignore lance while lance clearly has the permission to consider everything above 12 to be 12.
Show me where Quantum Shield has the Immune to Lance clause.
Land Raider Achilles has it and can ignore the effects. Some vehicules have it. Quantum Shield does not. Permissive environment. Quantum Shield does not have the permission to ignore lance while lance clearly has the permission to consider everything above 12 to be 12.
Both have the exact same effect. Lance isn't magically more powerful then QS. They both do the same thing just for different values. Since its a complete conflict you turn to the BRB clause that codex trumps rulebook which leads to QS winning
Except the conflict doesn't exist unless you purposely ignore what lance does in this scenario. Quantum shielding is countered (only partially, I might add) by lance because they are both set modifiers and one actually creates the ability to use the other.
You have a rule in your codex that says your armor value counts as 13. I have a rule in my corebook that says when an armor value is above twelve, it counts as twelve for weapons with this rule. What other rules need to be in place for the second sentence to end the discussion? One is in a codex, one is in the core book, yes normally the codex would Trump the core rulebook. Except the wording in the rule within the core rulebook allows for that rule to override the codex rule because it stipulates HOW it interacts with the codex rule, thereby giving the implicit permission to allow the rule to take effect.
Your av is above 13 because of a rule, I count it as 12 because that is what my rule tells me to do if your rule is in effect.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Except the conflict doesn't exist unless you purposely ignore what lance does in this scenario. Quantum shielding is countered (only partially, I might add) by lance because they are both set modifiers and one actually creates the ability to use the other.
You have a rule in your codex that says your armor value counts as 13. I have a rule in my corebook that says when an armor value is above twelve, it counts as twelve for weapons with this rule. What other rules need to be in place for the second sentence to end the discussion? One is in a codex, one is in the core book, yes normally the codex would Trump the core rulebook. Except the wording in the rule within the core rulebook allows for that rule to override the codex rule because it stipulates HOW it interacts with the codex rule, thereby giving the implicit permission to allow the rule to take effect.
Your av is above 13 because of a rule, I count it as 12 because that is what my rule tells me to do if your rule is in effect.
How have I made anything up? You only have an armor value above 12 because of a special rule.
My special rule tells me what to do if your armor value is above twelve.
Your special rule does not give any stipulation as to what happens when it is interacting with my special rule.
My special rule thereby overrides your special rule.
I don't need to reference anything else in this instance to try and make my case for this occurring, because the two rules have everything written in and of themselves in regards to how they interact. Lance can't happen at all if QS wasn't in effect, thereby lance has to affect qs by means of the rule specifying that it does so in its own description.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: How have I made anything up? You only have an armor value above 12 because of a special rule.
My special rule tells me what to do if your armor value is above twelve.
Your special rule does not give any stipulation as to what happens when it is interacting with my special rule.
My special rule thereby overrides your special rule.
I don't need to reference anything else in this instance to try and make my case for this occurring, because the two rules have everything written in and of themselves in regards to how they interact. Lance can't happen at all if QS wasn't in effect, thereby lance has to affect qs by means of the rule specifying that it does so in its own description.
Can you show me some RULES that show lance overrides QS which is by the book another special rule? I understand what you are saying but unless you have proof to back up your claim your claim doesn't mean much and has been shown to be incorredct on how the rules interact with one another.
If you can't, then answer me some questions.
Are Lance and QS both special rules?
Are they both trying to change a value?
Are they both set values?
Show me where Quantum Shield has the Immune to Lance clause.
Land Raider Achilles has it and can ignore the effects. Some vehicules have it. Quantum Shield does not. Permissive environment. Quantum Shield does not have the permission to ignore lance while lance clearly has the permission to consider everything above 12 to be 12.
Did you read the first post? I'm not saying QS is immune to Lance, I am saying that QS overrides the Lance special rule because both of them are set modifiers and are both constant, since they are both constant set modifiers they are both applied at the same time to a vehicle's AV which is a conflict since they are both trying to change the av of a vehicle. This creates a conflict thus basic vs advance rule steps in and tells us codex wins out. I have shown permission, but no one in this thread has shown any rules that say otherwise. You can't ignore the fact that both are the same type of special rule both trying to do the same thing(set a modifier value).
Please show me where the Lance special rule can ignore other special rules that set an av to something.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/27 22:40:45
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
basic vs. advance does not say codex wins out, there is no longer a codex overrides all other rules statement in the rulebook.
Both are advanced rules, that trigger at the same time. If this is the case player turn gets to decide order= lance will resolve after QS most of the time.
A vehicle with QS is AV 13 front and sides versus shooting attacks, generally.
a Lance weapon counts any AV over 12 as 12, so there are only specific AVs it affects.
specific rules do win out against general rules when in conflicts usually.
Without a rule specifying with how QS intereacts with lance, it has no additional affect on lance weapons.
If you have QS you treat your front/side armor as 13.
If you get shot by a lance weapon you treat the armor of above 12 as 12.
If you shoot a lance at a QS vehicle, and you say its AV 12, you have obeyed the rule for QS and Lance, because you treated the armor as above 12 [13] and then you modified it with the lance rule which tells us the armor values specifically above 12 become 12.
if you shoot a lance at a QS vehicle and say it is AV 13, you have obeyed the rules for QS, but have not obeyed the rules for lance. Nothing gives you permission to ignore the rules for lance weapons. If you had obeyed the rules for lance you would treat the armor as 12, because it is above 12. Any result of armor above 12, is 12 when a lance weapon hits it unless it has a rule specifying it ignores lance weapons, or the lance rule has no effect, etc.
Yours? Lance is completely in your possession now?
But that is besides the point. The point is being that both rules set the AV value to something else. They are trying to set the AV to different values. If Lance does its job, then QS is not doing its job, which is why there is a conflict.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Your special rule does not give any stipulation as to what happens when it is interacting with my special rule.
My special rule thereby overrides your special rule.
True, QS does not. But then, neither does Lance now does it? The reason is that there are other rules that cover the interaction, i.e. Multiple Modifiers and Basic vs Advanced.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I don't need to reference anything else in this instance to try and make my case for this occurring, because the two rules have everything written in and of themselves in regards to how they interact. Lance can't happen at all if QS wasn't in effect, thereby lance has to affect qs by means of the rule specifying that it does so in its own description.
No, they do not, you are only assuming such while ignoring several other rules in order to get to this end. Lance does not state anything about what happens if the weapon hits an AV with a rule affecting a Set Value.
Since you are insisting on calling Lance "yours", I can only assume you are taking this stance because you want it to be superior.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Are Lance and QS both special rules? Yes
Are they both trying to change a value? Yes, situationally.
Are they both set values? Yes
Now, if the armor of the vehicle is 11-12 Lance does not function, end of story.
QS changes the AV to 13 regardless of the armor the vehicle originally had and is a constant effect. Now Lance has permission to activate and is only able to be used if the AV is over 12. Lance is obviously the more specific of the two rules.
All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
blaktoof wrote: basic vs. advance does not say codex wins out, there is no longer a codex overrides all other rules statement in the rulebook.
Oh, that is so incorrect. From the 3rd Paragraph of Basic vs Advanced in General Principles:
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
So, yeah, Basic vs Advanced does say that codex trumps rulebook where a conflict occurs. Go look it up in the printed rulebook or ebook version produced by Games Workshop. You probably won't since you only use your own special rulebook that we do not have access to, but that is no reason to ignore what the rulebook the rest of us are using.
blaktoof wrote: Both are advanced rules, that trigger at the same time. If this is the case player turn gets to decide order= lance will resolve after QS most of the time.
They do not trigger at the same time. Quantum Shielding is on from before the model is deployed. Lance is on from the moment the weapon is deployed.
blaktoof wrote: A vehicle with QS is AV 13 front and sides versus shooting attacks, generally.
Not generally, and only counts as. QS specifically counts those three sides as AV 13. It doesn't matter if the AV was 2 or 12 on the datasheet, it is counted as 13 so long as the rule is active.
blaktoof wrote: a Lance weapon counts any AV over 12 as 12, so there are only specific AVs it affects.
True.
blaktoof wrote: specific rules do win out against general rules when in conflicts usually.
Except that Lance does not specifically address other rules that also have the AV count as something else, much less Quantum Shielding.
blaktoof wrote: Without a rule specifying with how QS intereacts with lance, it has no additional affect on lance weapons.
Except they are both rules trying to do the same thing with different values, hence the conflict.
blaktoof wrote: If you have QS you treat your front/side armor as 13.
If you get shot by a lance weapon you treat the armor of above 12 as 12.
Except that is not how the Multiple Modifiers rules work.
blaktoof wrote: If you shoot a lance at a QS vehicle, and you say its AV 12, you have obeyed the rule for QS and Lance, because you treated the armor as above 12 [13] and then you modified it with the lance rule which tells us the armor values specifically above 12 become 12.
Incorrect. Quantum Shielding is setting the value to count as 13, Lance is setting the value to count as 12. Multiple Modifiers do not state that if you have one Set Value that triggers off of another Set Value that it has primacy. In fact, it does not say anything at all about competing Set Values. So, the first resolution is Basic Vs Advanced since there is no specific timing for these rules. QS being a codex rule trumps the rulebook rule Lance as a result.
blaktoof wrote: if you shoot a lance at a QS vehicle and say it is AV 13, you have obeyed the rules for QS, but have not obeyed the rules for lance. Nothing gives you permission to ignore the rules for lance weapons. If you had obeyed the rules for lance you would treat the armor as 12, because it is above 12. Any result of armor above 12, is 12 when a lance weapon hits it unless it has a rule specifying it ignores lance weapons, or the lance rule has no effect, etc.
It has an affect, it is just that affect is superseded by another.
If a Space Marine has a Power Fist, Furious Charge, and an affect that sets their close combat Attack Str to be no higher than 7, the Attack hits at Str 7, no higher. Furious Charge comes in to affect, but then is superseded by the fact that the Set Value of Str 7 comes in to affect and supersedes it.
When a Lance weapon hits a Vehicle with QS, it attempts to reset the Value to 12. However, since the AV 13 is already a Modifier, and a set Value as well, it comes in to conflict. BvA tells us how to resolve this conflict.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote: QS changes the AV to 13 regardless of the armor the vehicle originally had and is a constant effect. Now Lance has permission to activate and is only able to be used if the AV is over 12. Lance is obviously the more specific of the two rules.
Now if that's how the game actually worked...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/27 23:51:54
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
In order for quantum shieldin and lance to both be active, lance HAS to change the armor value given by quantum shielding to twelve.
If lance didn't affect quantum shielding, quantum shielding would say so. Otherwise when quantum shielding is activated, it CAUSES the lance rule to also activate.
If you have a rule that say you count as a monstrous creature, then there is no argument that monster hunter wouldn't work because the rule monster hunter states clearly how monster hunter interacts with things that count as monstrous creatures.
You have a rule that says you count as av13, there is no argument that lance wouldn't work because the rule lance states clearly how lance weapons interact with things that count as being above av12.
In order for quantum shieldin and lance to both be active, lance HAS to change the armor value given by quantum shielding to twelve.
If lance didn't affect quantum shielding, quantum shielding would say so. Otherwise when quantum shielding is activated, it CAUSES the lance rule to also activate.
If you have a rule that say you count as a monstrous creature, then there is no argument that monster hunter wouldn't work because the rule monster hunter states clearly how monster hunter interacts with things that count as monstrous creatures.
You have a rule that says you count as av13, there is no argument that lance wouldn't work because the rule lance states clearly how lance weapons interact with things that count as being above av12.
You seem to agree with megatrons answers to my questions so i'll continue.
They are both constant effects that are set values, the number they are trying to set an AV to are different so this makes a conflict. Do you or megatrons2nd or anyone else have a rule quote to show that the Lance special rule is more specific so that it trumps qs, or shows permission to overrule another special rule?
Your example of
If you have a rule that say you count as a monstrous creature, then there is no argument that monster hunter wouldn't work because the rule monster hunter states clearly how monster hunter interacts with things that count as monstrous creatures.
is a poor example at best in relation to Lance and QS since the made up rule that changes the creature's type isn't a set modifer a better example would be
Illuminor szeras's mechanical augmentation rolled improved optics which sets the friendly units bs to 5 "Improved Optics: The Unit Is ballistic Skill 5." This is a constant effect in a codex and a set modifier just like qs. Let say there is a special rule in the BRB that sets their bs and ws to 1 that doesn't say anything about overruleing other special rules just like Lance. You now have two special rules that are trying to set the value of something, the rules tell us that in a conflict as such to use the codex's rule over the brb rule. The unit's ws is still 1 because improved optics doesn't change the ws of the unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 00:37:18
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
In order for quantum shieldin and lance to both be active, lance HAS to change the armor value given by quantum shielding to twelve.
If lance didn't affect quantum shielding, quantum shielding would say so. Otherwise when quantum shielding is activated, it CAUSES the lance rule to also activate.
If you have a rule that say you count as a monstrous creature, then there is no argument that monster hunter wouldn't work because the rule monster hunter states clearly how monster hunter interacts with things that count as monstrous creatures.
You have a rule that says you count as av13, there is no argument that lance wouldn't work because the rule lance states clearly how lance weapons interact with things that count as being above av12.
If they did not do the exact same thing (not the trigger, but the actual action), then you might have an argument.
But they do, indeed, perform the same task on the same statistic. This generates a conflict since both modifying values cannot exist in the same space at the same time, and we do not have permission in any rule for doing so.
And there is absolutely no rule supporting the fact that Lance applies its modifier after Quantum Shielding, even if Quantum Shielding's Modifier is what triggers Lance's modifier to happen. At least, not one that has been presented in the 5-6 threads I have read and discussed on this subject.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
If quantum shielding CAUSES lance to happen, how does lance not override quantum shielding.
That is what you are trying to say here. Even though quantum shielding is the direct CAUSE for lance to come into play, somehow you believe lance doesn't get to come into play. Causality is not needed to be specified in the ruleset because cause and effect are things that any sane person should be able to recognize bt the time they have the reading comprehension to play this game.
You have quantum shielding, it makes lance come into use where otherwise it would not, therefor lance has to modify quantum shielding. Your armor value is still higher than the 11 it started with, so your rule isn't being overwritten or negated. It is simply not giving you the full benefit it normally would.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: If quantum shielding CAUSES lance to happen, how does lance not override quantum shielding.
That is what you are trying to say here. Even though quantum shielding is the direct CAUSE for lance to come into play, somehow you believe lance doesn't get to come into play. Causality is not needed to be specified in the ruleset because cause and effect are things that any sane person should be able to recognize bt the time they have the reading comprehension to play this game.
You have quantum shielding, it makes lance come into use where otherwise it would not, therefor lance has to modify quantum shielding. Your armor value is still higher than the 11 it started with, so your rule isn't being overwritten or negated. It is simply not giving you the full benefit it normally would.
Lance comes in to play when you make attacks with a weapon with Lance. The AV Modifier triggers when it comes in to play against AV 13+, true. But that does not mean it can modify a codex modifier that has the same type of modifier. It does not have permission to do that at all.
So far as I have found, the timing of application means absolutely nothing when it comes to these types of rules. Where is the rule that gives the second modifier to trigger primacy over the first?
Without such a rule, we are in conflict. When rules are in conflict, Basic Vs Advanced tells us that codex advanced rules have primacy. So while Lance does trigger, its modifier is overridden by Quantum Shielding just like AP triggers against a target with a better Armour Save.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: If quantum shielding CAUSES lance to happen, how does lance not override quantum shielding.
That is what you are trying to say here. Even though quantum shielding is the direct CAUSE for lance to come into play, somehow you believe lance doesn't get to come into play. Causality is not needed to be specified in the ruleset because cause and effect are things that any sane person should be able to recognize bt the time they have the reading comprehension to play this game.
You have quantum shielding, it makes lance come into use where otherwise it would not, therefor lance has to modify quantum shielding. Your armor value is still higher than the 11 it started with, so your rule isn't being overwritten or negated. It is simply not giving you the full benefit it normally would.
You seem to think that lance now changes the rules for QS, do you have rules support for your claims or are you going to continue to ignore this request and simply make claims?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
I don't need to make claims or point to additional rules to prove my point, you have to however in order to validate your side of the discussion. For some reason you are treating this as if there was a direct conflict with no basis for the other side to believe they are correct.
If the lance rule stated that "armor values are 12" without some sort of prerequisite, then yes, QS set modifier would override that. It does not say that however.
Lance says to look at the armor value on any vehicle on the table, and IF that vehicle has an armor value above 12, it counts as twelve. QS GAVE the vehicle in question that armor rating, they are both advanced rules, the difference is that lance gives a specific set of circumstances that it is allowed to activate in. If one set modifier HAS to activate AFTER the other, how does the previous modifier get to then override the second?
"The rule gives me av13"
"If you are av13, this other rules makes it twelve"
But the rule says it gives me 13, so it is 13."
"Then the lance rule makes it a twelve again because you now have an armor value that allows it to do so"
"But...13"
As I said before, the circle will keep getting you to the same point. Whenever you try to claim that the av is above 12, the lance rule will THEN come into effect and bring it to twelve. I don't need any other rule, or reference anything else in the book. Lance give specific permission to do what it does, and when it does it. You have a second set modifier that is only applied AFTER the other one, the second set modifier has to be applied afterward, meaning the value has to be reset.
(Note, I do not have my book on my and am relying on the rules quoted at the beginning of this thread)
Lance Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."
Quantum Shielding "A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."
Quantum shielding changes the armor value of the vehicle. Lance changes the armor value the weapon uses, but does not actually change the armor value of the vehicle. There is no conflict here. The QS makes the armor 13, the weapon with the lance rule counts it as 12, even though the armor is still 13.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 15:14:51
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:I don't need to make claims or point to additional rules to prove my point, you have to however in order to validate your side of the discussion. For some reason you are treating this as if there was a direct conflict with no basis for the other side to believe they are correct.
Well, it is hard to prove a negative. I cannot prove to you that a rule does not exist without quoting the entire book. And since you have not produced it, well...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:If the lance rule stated that "armor values are 12" without some sort of prerequisite, then yes, QS set modifier would override that. It does not say that however.
Lance says to look at the armor value on any vehicle on the table, and IF that vehicle has an armor value above 12, it counts as twelve. QS GAVE the vehicle in question that armor rating, they are both advanced rules, the difference is that lance gives a specific set of circumstances that it is allowed to activate in. If one set modifier HAS to activate AFTER the other, how does the previous modifier get to then override the second?
We told you. That is not how Multiple Modifiers work. Timing means nothing with them. They are both set value modifiers, which came first is not even in consideration. That one is reliant on the other to trigger is not even in consideration when it comes to applying multiple modifiers.
If you can demonstrate otherwise, please elucidate.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:"The rule gives me av13"
"If you are av13, this other rules makes it twelve"
But the rule says it gives me 13, so it is 13."
"Then the lance rule makes it a twelve again because you now have an armor value that allows it to do so"
"But...13"
As I said before, the circle will keep getting you to the same point. Whenever you try to claim that the av is above 12, the lance rule will THEN come into effect and bring it to twelve. I don't need any other rule, or reference anything else in the book. Lance give specific permission to do what it does, and when it does it. You have a second set modifier that is only applied AFTER the other one, the second set modifier has to be applied afterward, meaning the value has to be reset.
Again, both rules are doing the same thing to a different level. One counts the AV as 13, the other counts the AV as 12. This is where the conflict arises. Multiple Modifiers does not care if you are a chicken or an egg.
Banbaji wrote:(Note, I do not have my book on my and am relying on the rules quoted at the beginning of this thread)
Lance
Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."
Quantum Shielding
"A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."
Quantum shielding changes the armor value of the vehicle. Lance changes the armor value the weapon uses, but does not actually change the armor value of the vehicle. There is no conflict here. The QS makes the armor 13, the weapon with the lance rule counts it as 12, even though the armor is still 13.
Quantum Shielding does no more to change the AV of the vehicle than Lance does, and that is what leads to the conflict. It is 11 counting as 13. It is not 13 waiting to be counted as 12. I bolded the relevant points for you in the rules you quoted.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 16:06:02
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:I don't need to make claims or point to additional rules to prove my point, you have to however in order to validate your side of the discussion. For some reason you are treating this as if there was a direct conflict with no basis for the other side to believe they are correct.
Well, it is hard to prove a negative. I cannot prove to you that a rule does not exist without quoting the entire book. And since you have not produced it, well...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:If the lance rule stated that "armor values are 12" without some sort of prerequisite, then yes, QS set modifier would override that. It does not say that however.
Lance says to look at the armor value on any vehicle on the table, and IF that vehicle has an armor value above 12, it counts as twelve. QS GAVE the vehicle in question that armor rating, they are both advanced rules, the difference is that lance gives a specific set of circumstances that it is allowed to activate in. If one set modifier HAS to activate AFTER the other, how does the previous modifier get to then override the second?
We told you. That is not how Multiple Modifiers work. Timing means nothing with them. They are both set value modifiers, which came first is not even in consideration. That one is reliant on the other to trigger is not even in consideration when it comes to applying multiple modifiers.
If you can demonstrate otherwise, please elucidate.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:"The rule gives me av13"
"If you are av13, this other rules makes it twelve"
But the rule says it gives me 13, so it is 13."
"Then the lance rule makes it a twelve again because you now have an armor value that allows it to do so"
"But...13"
As I said before, the circle will keep getting you to the same point. Whenever you try to claim that the av is above 12, the lance rule will THEN come into effect and bring it to twelve. I don't need any other rule, or reference anything else in the book. Lance give specific permission to do what it does, and when it does it. You have a second set modifier that is only applied AFTER the other one, the second set modifier has to be applied afterward, meaning the value has to be reset.
Again, both rules are doing the same thing to a different level. One counts the AV as 13, the other counts the AV as 12. This is where the conflict arises. Multiple Modifiers does not care if you are a chicken or an egg.
Banbaji wrote:(Note, I do not have my book on my and am relying on the rules quoted at the beginning of this thread)
Lance
Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."
Quantum Shielding
"A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."
Quantum shielding changes the armor value of the vehicle. Lance changes the armor value the weapon uses, but does not actually change the armor value of the vehicle. There is no conflict here. The QS makes the armor 13, the weapon with the lance rule counts it as 12, even though the armor is still 13.
Quantum Shielding does no more to change the AV of the vehicle than Lance does, and that is what leads to the conflict. It is 11 counting as 13. It is not 13 waiting to be counted as 12. I bolded the relevant points for you in the rules you quoted.
I think your last line sums up the problem some people are having.
a model with QS is not AV 11.
It is AV 13 until it loses QS.
If it gets shot by a lance while, before you fire its is AV 13, when you are rolling to hit, it is AV13, if the lance weapon hits since it is an AV above 12, it counts as 12. So the quantum shielding rule is not over-ridden or ignored it is applied because the model is AV13, and when the lance weapon hits it the lance weapon can resolve the shot as if it were AV12.
If you apply QS and do not apply lance, you are ignoring a rule.
IF you apply QS and then apply lance you come to resolving the shot against an AV13 model as if it were AV12 and are obeying both rules.
to say that lance is over riding qs is not true, because QS has been applied, to say QS always continues to apply is as false as saying lance always continues to apply, in such "reasoning" you end with an endless loop of events applying at the same time- something gets set to something, then gets set to something else then set to something then something else repeated endlessly.
QS applies all the time when it is active, Lance applies specifically against models above AV12 when resolving a shot that hits the model.
but with rules in the past that conflict[ie re-roll failed armor saves along with re-rolled passed armor saves] we can always meet in the middle and say they negate each other and the model is just AV 11
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/28 17:21:32
(1) You can't have both QS and Lance rules in effect at the same time in a way such that the Vehicle is both AV12 and AV13 at the same time.
(2) You can't have neither QS and Lance rules in effect as there is no basis for both rules canceling each other out.
(3) Therefore, either one of the rules must supersede the other completely replacing it, else a logical contradiction or absurd result occurs; or, you must find a way to allow both rules to be operative in a manner that does not lead to a logical contradiction or absurd result.
If you think one rule must supersede the other as to make the other inoperative, you have no logical basis for your position. This is because neither rule expressly says that it negates any other rule completely. This is why the QS>Lance interpretation doesn't work, as will be demonstrated below:
For the purposes of this discussion, QS modifies the base AV of a vehicle to be a fixed value of 13. Lance modifies whatever value the AV ends up being to be 12 if it is greater than 12. Taking this into consideration, and absent any language in the QS rule to negate the effects of Lance weapons like some other Vehicles have, the most reasonable and logical result is to have Lance count a Vehicle equipped with QS as AV12 for that attack.
With this option, the Vehicle with QS still benefits from the QS rule (AV12 versus AV11) and Lance rule still works (AV12 versus AV13). Both rules are in effect. With the previous option, only one rule is in effect which actually leads to an absurd result.
By analogy, if you take a rule that say "roll 3d6 dice for LD test and choose the two lowest" and a rule that says "roll 3d6 for LD test and choose the two highest" you are dealing with a similar situation. From a logical perspective, to reconcile both rules, you should roll 4d6 and drop both the highest and the lowest result but for simplicity and efficiency people often just had the rules cancel out.
TLDR:
(1) Because the interpretation that QS negates Lance completely prevents one rule (Lance) from taking effect without expressly saying so, you have an absurd result/contradiction. No Special rule completely negates any other special rule without expressly saying so, else absurd results occur.
(2) Because the interpretation that Lance modifies the QS rule, thereby allowing both to operate, you have the least logically violative result and therefore the preferred result.
The only way of having QS and Lance work in the game RAW is to have the Lance rule modify the AV13 of a Vehicle equipped with QS down to 12, else you end up with what we call an absurd result in logic-a rule ceasing to take effect without express language that said rule should cease to take effect (i.e., Ceramite Plating vs. Melta or how the Monolith used to specify that Lance did not work against it).
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 19:01:32
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Show me where Quantum Shield has the Immune to Lance clause.
Land Raider Achilles has it and can ignore the effects. Some vehicules have it. Quantum Shield does not. Permissive environment. Quantum Shield does not have the permission to ignore lance while lance clearly has the permission to consider everything above 12 to be 12.
Both have the exact same effect. Lance isn't magically more powerful then QS. They both do the same thing just for different values. Since its a complete conflict you turn to the BRB clause that codex trumps rulebook which leads to QS winning
No lance is not more magically powerful and no they do not do the same thing. QS changes the vehicules AV. Lance changes the AV against which it rolls. If I fire a lance and a pulse laser. Pulse laser still has to roll against 13. It does not become 12 because a lance is shooting at it. Therefore the vehicule's AV is unchanged.
There is no conflict. Permissive environment. Quantum Shield has permission to make a vehicules's AV 13 period. Nothing more. It does not have permission to ignore other rules.
Lance does not interact with Quantum Shield. It interacts with the RESULT of Quantum Shield which is AV13. Quantum Shield does it's job and makes the AV 13 period. Nothing more.
Lance fires, checks AV. AV is 13, AV is now 12. Lance did not get permission to ignore QS. It has permission to make 13 into 12 no matter the source. There is 0 conflict. Lance does not stop QS from working. QS does not stop lance from wokring either.
If you want to ignore lance you need permission to do so. Permission QS does not have. Necron vehicules do not have "Immune to Lance" rules. Quantum Shield does not have that clause either.
(1) You can't have both QS and Lance rules in effect at the same time in a way such that the Vehicle is both AV12 and AV13 at the same time.
(2) You can't have neither QS and Lance rules in effect as there is no basis for both rules canceling each other out.
(3) Therefore, either one of the rules must supersede the other completely replacing it, else a logical contradiction or absurd result occurs; or, you must find a way to allow both rules to be operative in a manner that does not lead to a logical contradiction or absurd result.
If you think one rule must supersede the other as to make the other inoperative, you have no logical basis for your position. This is because neither rule expressly says that it negates any other rule completely. This is why the QS>Lance interpretation doesn't work, as will be demonstrated below:
For the purposes of this discussion, QS modifies the base AV of a vehicle to be a fixed value of 13. Lance modifies whatever value the AV ends up being to be 12 if it is greater than 12. Taking this into consideration, and absent any language in the QS rule to negate the effects of Lance weapons like some other Vehicles have, the most reasonable and logical result is to have Lance count a Vehicle equipped with QS as AV12 for that attack.
With this option, the Vehicle with QS still benefits from the QS rule (AV12 versus AV11) and Lance still benefits (AV12 versus AV13). Both rules are in effect. With the previous option, only one rule is in effect which actually leads to an absurd result.
TLDR:
(1) Because the interpretation that QS negates Lance completely prevents one rule (Lance) from taking effect without expressly saying so, you have an absurd result/contradiction. No Special rule completely negates any other special rule without expressly saying so, else absurd results occur.
(2) Because the interpretation that Lance modifies the QS rule, thereby allowing both to operate, you have the least logically violative result and therefore the preferred result.
The only way of having QS and Lance work in the game RAW is to have the Lance rule modify the AV13 of a Vehicle equipped with QS down to 12, else you end up with what we call an absurd result in logic-a rule ceasing to take effect without express language that said rule should cease to take effect (i.e., Ceramite Plating vs. Melta or how the Monolith used to specify that Lance did not work against it).
blaktoof wrote:I think your last line sums up the problem some people are having.
a model with QS is not AV 11.
It is on the datasheets in my book. Though, there is one that is 12 in the IA book.
blaktoof wrote:It is AV 13 until it loses QS.
Incorrect. Quantum Shielding specifically states that it "counts as" 13 until Penetrated, not "is 13". What does Lance do? "Count as 12".
blaktoof wrote:If it gets shot by a lance while, before you fire its is AV 13, when you are rolling to hit, it is AV13, if the lance weapon hits since it is an AV above 12, it counts as 12. So the quantum shielding rule is not over-ridden or ignored it is applied because the model is AV13, and when the lance weapon hits it the lance weapon can resolve the shot as if it were AV12.
Before you fire it counts as AV 13, Lance then tries to count it as 12. They are both trying to count the AV as something. Conflict.
blaktoof wrote:If you apply QS and do not apply lance, you are ignoring a rule.
I apply QS and apply Lance. Lance tries to override QS by doing the same thing. Conflict. QS as a rulebook advanced rule takes primacy, and Lance's affect is ignored.
blaktoof wrote:IF you apply QS and then apply lance you come to resolving the shot against an AV13 model as if it were AV12 and are obeying both rules.
Only if you ignore QS' rule. If you apply QS and then apply Lance, you are resolving a shot against an AV 11 model that is counting as AV 13, and Lance is trying to count as AV 12.
blaktoof wrote:to say that lance is over riding qs is not true, because QS has been applied, to say QS always continues to apply is as false as saying lance always continues to apply, in such "reasoning" you end with an endless loop of events applying at the same time- something gets set to something, then gets set to something else then set to something then something else repeated endlessly.
Only if you ignore the rules regarding primacy in Basic vs Advanced, which I know you have at least once in this thread and had to be corrected.
blaktoof wrote:QS applies all the time when it is active, Lance applies specifically against models above AV12 when resolving a shot that hits the model.
If that was only how multiple modifiers worked. But they do not.
mortetvie wrote:(3) Therefore, either one of the rules must supersede the other completely replacing it, else a logical contradiction or absurd result occurs; or, you must find a way to allow both rules to be operative in a manner that does not lead to a logical contradiction or absurd result.
Why must I find a way to allow both rules to be operative in a manner that does not lead to a logical contradiction or absurd result?
There are many rules that ignore other rules without ever recognizing them. The Necron Obelisk can force a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature to take a Dangerous Terrain test. But Flying Monstrous Creatures have Move Through Cover which allow them to automatically pass Dangerous Terrain Tests. Does the FMC not get to automatically pass the DT test, then?
mortetvie wrote:If you think one rule must supersede the other as to make the other inoperative, you have no logical basis for your position. This is because neither rule expressly says that it negates any other rule completely. This is why the QS>Lance interpretation doesn't work, as will be demonstrated below:
Basic vs Advanced in General Principles gives me the logical basis for my position that QS counts as value supersedes Lance's. Read the last paragraph.
mortetvie wrote:For the purposes of this discussion, QS modifies the base AV of a vehicle to be a fixed value of 13. Lance modifies whatever value the AV ends up being to be 12 if it is greater than 12. Taking this into consideration, and absent any language in the QS rule to negate the effects of Lance weapons like some other Vehicles have, the most reasonable and logical result is to have Lance count a Vehicle equipped with QS as AV12 for that attack.
Why? Lance does not allow you to modify a modifier any more than QS specifically denies Lance.
mortetvie wrote:With this option, the Vehicle with QS still benefits from the QS rule (AV12 versus AV11) and Lance rule still works (AV12 versus AV13). Both rules are in effect. With the previous option, only one rule is in effect which actually leads to an absurd result.
Absurdity is a relative term. But why must I have both rules in full affect? The rule on that please?
mortetvie wrote:By analogy, if you take a rule that say "roll 3d6 dice for LD test and choose the two lowest" and a rule that says "roll 3d6 for LD test and choose the two highest" you are dealing with a similar situation. From a logical perspective, to reconcile both rules, you should roll 4d6 and drop both the highest and the lowest result but for simplicity and efficiency people often just had the rules cancel out.
Great for House Rules. There is a forum for that, go check it out. But do not try to apply House Rules as RAW. HYWPI, fine, but not RAW.
mortetvie wrote:(1) Because the interpretation that QS negates Lance completely prevents one rule (Lance) from taking effect without expressly saying so, you have an absurd result/contradiction. No Special rule completely negates any other special rule without expressly saying so, else absurd results occur.
Yes, you have a contradiction. That is one definition of conflict. Please review Basic vs Advanced for instructions on when two rules are in conflict, please.
mortetvie wrote:(2) Because the interpretation that Lance modifies the QS rule, thereby allowing both to operate, you have the least logically violative result and therefore the preferred result.
Lance does not specifically state that it modifies the QS rule, or any other modifier at all. You are using an assumption to define your results.
mortetvie wrote:The only way of having QS and Lance work in the game RAW is to have the Lance rule modify the AV13 of a Vehicle equipped with QS down to 12, else you end up with what we call an absurd result in logic-a rule ceasing to take effect without express language that said rule should cease to take effect (i.e., Ceramite Plating vs. Melta or how the Monolith used to specify that Lance did not work against it).
Why do I need Lance to modify a modifier of the same type when I am not given permission to do so? Why must Lance be fully operative and prevent QS from doing its full job? What gives Lance the primacy to do this within the rules themselves?
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(1) You can't have both QS and Lance rules in effect at the same time in a way such that the Vehicle is both AV12 and AV13 at the same time.
Correct because this makes a conflict which the rules tell us what to do in this case.
mortetvie wrote: (2) You can't have neither QS and Lance rules in effect as there is no basis for both rules canceling each other out.
Correct, neither rule states it cancels the other out, and both are constant continues effects.
mortetvie wrote: (3) Therefore, either one of the rules must supersede the other completely replacing it, else a logical contradiction or absurd result occurs; or, you must find a way to allow both rules to be operative in a manner that does not lead to a logical contradiction or absurd result.
A logical contradiction does occur, thankfully the rules tells us what to do when that happens, namely under the basic vs advance rule tells us when a conflict occues (exactly like this situation and even you has stated a logical contradiction occures) that the rule listed in the codex supercedes the rule in the BRB
mortetvie wrote: If you think one rule must supersede the other as to make the other inoperative, you have no logical basis for your position.
except the basic vs advance rule tells us other wise, and you are trying to state that lance overrules/changes the QS special rule which a very hypocritical statement.
mortetvie wrote: This is because neither rule expressly says that it negates any other rule completely. This is why the QS>Lance interpretation doesn't work, as will be demonstrated below:
For the purposes of this discussion, QS modifies the base AV of a vehicle to be a fixed value of 13.
this is called a set modifier
mortetvie wrote: Lance modifies whatever value the AV ends up being to be 12 if it is greater than 12.
This is also a set modifier and has no rule support that it applies "last" after all other set modifiers. The rules clearly show that all set modifiers are applied last.
mortetvie wrote: say to Taking this into consideration, and absent any language in the QS rule to negate the effects of Lance weapons like some other Vehicles have, the most reasonable and logical result is to have Lance count a Vehicle equipped with QS as AV12 for that attack.
This is a house rule and has no RAW support. QS is not the base AV on the vehicle it is a special rule just like Lance is
mortetvie wrote: With this option, the Vehicle with QS still benefits from the QS rule (AV12 versus AV11) and Lance rule still works (AV12 versus AV13). Both rules are in effect. With the previous option, only one rule is in effect which actually leads to an absurd result.
Both rules are in effect which makes a conflict, the rules tells us what to do when a conflict happens. Because QS is a codex rule it supersedes the lance rule because of the basic vs advance rule. Saying Lance modifies what the QS is setting the AV to is a house rule.
mortetvie wrote: By analogy, if you take a rule that say "roll 3d6 dice for LD test and choose the two lowest" and a rule that says "roll 3d6 for LD test and choose the two highest" you are dealing with a similar situation. From a logical perspective, to reconcile both rules, you should roll 4d6 and drop both the highest and the lowest result but for simplicity and efficiency people often just had the rules cancel out.
Poor analogy since neither are modifiers changing a characteristic value, your solution is a house rule. The closest we can get to this situation is the rule on pg 11 in the brb about two or more special rules combine to the effect of re-roll all failled and all successful dice results to simply use the original results instead.
(1) Because the interpretation that QS negates Lance completely prevents one rule (Lance) from taking effect without expressly saying so, you have an absurd result/contradiction. No Special rule completely negates any other special rule without expressly saying so, else absurd results occur.
(2) Because the interpretation that Lance modifies the QS rule, thereby allowing both to operate, you have the least logically violative result and therefore the preferred result.
The only way of having QS and Lance work in the game RAW is to have the Lance rule modify the AV13 of a Vehicle equipped with QS down to 12, else you end up with what we call an absurd result in logic-a rule ceasing to take effect without express language that said rule should cease to take effect (i.e., Ceramite Plating vs. Melta or how the Monolith used to specify that Lance did not work against it).
TLDR:
(1) Because the interpretation that Lance negates QS completely prevents one rule (QS) from taking effect without expressly saying so, you have an absurd result/contradiction. No special rule completely negates any other special rule without expressly saying so, else absurd results occur.
(2) Because the interpretation that Lance modifies the QS rule is a house rule with no rules support that it changes another special rule, you have the least logical result.
The only way of having QS and Lance work in the game RAW is by using the basic vs advance rule since both are constant set modifiers which tells us the codex rule takes priority.
ninja'd
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 19:33:17
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
The only way for there to be a conflict in the rules would be if the rules said to apply A set modifier last. It does not. It says to apply set modifiers (plural) last. You have a set modifier, it makes you armor value 13, which causes me to have another set modifier, which brings that 13 down to a 12. You cannot show that there can only be one set modifier active at a time, you cannot show how the modifier for quantum shielding reacts to the modifier given by lance.
I can show the opposite in both of these cases. QS counts as av13, that lets lance then modify with an additional set value bringing it down to twelve because there can be multiple set values in effect, and lance gives permission to affect the outcome of QS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/28 19:46:11
Um, that whole Basic versus Advanced rules thing doesn't apply here because they are both advanced rules and advanced rules only cancel each other out if they specifically say so or if one rule in the BRB contradicts one in a Codex. Indeed, the kind of conflict the Basic versus Advanced section is discussing is where one rule contradicts another but here there is no contradiction... The two rules can interact with each other such that neither needs to be prevented from operating.
One position (the incorrect one) is choosing to read the rules such that they must contradict each other but in reality they don't necessarily contradict each other as can be demonstrated in the example Blacktoof, myself and others have pointed out. The fact that both rules CAN be applied together as to have both operative means that there isn't a contradiction and the position that QS>Lance by default is incorrect, from a purely logical perspective that is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 20:11:36
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:The only way for there to be a conflict in the rules would be if the rules said to apply A set modifier last. It does not. It says to apply set modifiers (plural) last. You have a set modifier, it makes you armor value 13, which causes me to have another set modifier, which brings that 13 down to a 12. You cannot show that there can only be one set modifier active at a time, you cannot show how the modifier for quantum shielding reacts to the modifier given by lance.
Can you show me how something can be both 13 and 12 all at the same time?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:I can show the opposite in both of these cases. QS counts as av13, that lets lance then modify with an additional set value bringing it down to twelve because there can be multiple set values in effect, and lance gives permission to affect the outcome of QS.
But if Lance counts it as 12, then QS isn't counting it as 13, is it?
mortetvie wrote:Um, that whole Basic versus Advanced rules thing doesn't apply here because they are both advanced rules and advanced rules only cancel each other out if they specifically say so or if one rule in the BRB contradicts one in a Codex. Indeed, the kind of conflict the Basic versus Advanced section is discussing is where one rule contradicts another but here there is no contradiction... The two rules can interact with each other such that neither needs to be prevented from operating.
Incorrect. They can only interact if one modifier is allowed to modify another. Lance does not do so any more than Quantum Shielding. They both cannot be in place at the same time without denying one from working fully, therefore a conflict has arisen.
mortetvie wrote:One position (the incorrect one) is choosing to read the rules such that they must contradict each other but in reality they don't necessarily contradict each other as can be demonstrated in the example Blacktoof, myself and others have pointed out. The fact that both rules CAN be applied together as to have both operative means that there isn't a contradiction and the position that QS>Lance by default is incorrect, from a purely logical perspective that is.
That is because they are both doing the same thing at the same time. It cannot be both values without a contradiction or conflict. If Lance stated that it applied after other modifiers, than this wouldn't even be much of a discussion, but it doesn't.
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Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
