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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
where does it say lance cannot affect a modifier that is already in place?

Probably in the place that doesn't say it CAN. In other words, Lance does not automatically supersede other AV set value modifiers like Snap Shot does for BS. You have not provided a quote to support this.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Where does it say only one set modifier can be applied to a unit in any statistic? It doesn't, anywhere.

True, but can you show me how something can actually carry two values at the same time? The AV cannot be 12 AND 13. This is a logical math conflict which the rulebook does not provide permission or a method to resolve in another fashion aside from conflict resolution.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Lance has permission to affect any vehicle with an av higher than twelve. Fact

Not quite. It is just a general permission, the word 'any' is not used.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A vehicle with quantum shielding has an av higher than twelve. Fact

Not quite. It counts as 13, just as Lance tries to count it as 12.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There are no rules stating that a UNIT cannot be affected by multiple set modifiers. Fact

Yes, and no. No general rules, of course, but basic math states that the two values are not compatible. 12 does not equal 13.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There are no general rules, or specific rules for quantum shielding that allow it to ignore lance or be applied more than once. Fact

No more than Lance has permission to override another set value, nor supersede any codex advanced rule.

I should note that while Quantum Shielding does not in and of itself state it cannot be applied twice (and none of us have ever stated it does or should), there is a way for the Doomsday Ark to have the active Quantum Shielding from an Annihilation Barge in the same Formation be transferred to it.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Lance has permission to affect units with quantum shielding due to the rules allowing multiple set modifiers affect a unit and the unit with quantum shielding causing the unit itself to become a viable application for the lance rule to affect. When lance comes into play (whenever that may be) it will automatically count any vehicle with av>12 as 12. Since the model with QS counts as (for ALL intents and purposes because there is NO stipulation within the rule itself that says otherwise) av13 it automatically becomes affected by lance.

Lance wins out over quantum shielding.

Your position is based on the faulty perception that because it is applied second, it automatically supersedes another value. Multiple Modifiers has its own order of operations which does not care which order the values are apply, so this standard has no weight. You have no quote to support this change in the established Order of Operations.

You are also under the faulty perception that Lance operates like Snap Shot and supersedes any other set value. Lance does not carry any such specifications, so is as authoritative as Fear.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You have no basis for your interpretation of the rules for sequencing because you are resting it on your own assumption that only one set modifier can be applied to anything and one has to override the other in all ways. That isn't true.

I have plenty of basis for my interpretation, because I have rules to back them up. Both are set value modifiers with the standard order of operations the game provides in Multiple Modifiers giving both primacy. No permission is granted to use any other order of operations. A conflict between the rules exist as two different values cannot exist on the same characteristic at the same time, and Basic vs Advanced states that codex advanced rules supersede rulebook advanced rules. Thus primacy is granted to Quantum Shielding.

You are attempting to apply a real world order of operations when another has already been put in place, without rules to back them up. You attempt to give Lance the same level of primacy as Snap Shot, also without any other rules to support them. You attempt to apply limits and restrictions to a codex advanced rule without considering those same limits and restrictions also apply to the rulebook advanced rule you believe has primacy.

I'm sorry, but that is very shaky ground for a successful argument.

No permission is granted to use any other order of operations

Isn't the standard procedure for that "player whose turn this is decides"?

What world do you guys live in where a set modifier that applies after another one doesn't supercede the prior one?

No, quantum shielding no longer allows the av to count as 13, because when it does a second modifier, which the rules allow to be applied, comes in and modifies the save further. Multiple set modifiers doesn't have to say which one applies first because lance CANNOT BE APPLIED BEFORE QUANTUM SHIELDING! lance cannot be applied in any way to a unit with av11. QS makes the av 13, lance has direct permission to affect THAT armor value and since it counts as that armor value with no specific permission to do otherwise the lance rule may then be applied.

Survivor19 wrote:

No permission is granted to use any other order of operations

Isn't the standard procedure for that "player whose turn this is decides"?

As stated earlier, this only applies when two rules are stated to resolve at the same time. Neither Lance nor Quantum Shielding provide any such resolution timing. Nor does Multiple Modifiers care which modifier comes first.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:What world do you guys live in where a set modifier that applies after another one doesn't supercede the prior one?

One where permission is not granted for such an event to occur. You have yet to provide evidence that this order of operations is valid and supersedes the order of operations provided in Multiple Modifiers.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:No, quantum shielding no longer allows the av to count as 13, because when it does a second modifier, which the rules allow to be applied, comes in and modifies the save further. Multiple set modifiers doesn't have to say which one applies first because lance CANNOT BE APPLIED BEFORE QUANTUM SHIELDING! lance cannot be applied in any way to a unit with av11. QS makes the av 13, lance has direct permission to affect THAT armor value and since it counts as that armor value with no specific permission to do otherwise the lance rule may then be applied.

If QS no longer allows the AV to count as 13, then it is 11, and Lance has no use.

Being a second modifier does not matter, or at least, not by any rule presented to date. That gives absolutely no preference to how multiple modifiers work.

Lance may be able to affect AV 13 (not in argument, actually), but it does not have blanket permission to override any other modifier which you have yet to support with any actual rules from the rulebook.

Is the armor value above 11? Yes. Why? Because quantum shielding has raised it above that. Is the armor value above 12? No. Why? Because lance has lowered it to that number. Are both modifiers affecting the armor value of the unit in question? Yes. Is that allowed by the rules set, in particular multiple modifiers? Yes, because the rules for multiple modifiers states that you apply ANY set modifiers last. It doesn't say that only one may affect the outcome of the statistic, just that any that can apply will do so.

Since the lance rule applies only so long as the quantum shielding rule has already applied it negates the full benefit of quantum shielding without errasingbthe entire benefit of it. Multiple set modifiers may affect the same statistic, you just don't seem to like how that plays out in this instance.

And before you say again that there are no rules to support this, ask yourself "where does it say I have to CHOOSE a single set modifier to be the only one affecting a statistic?"

You will not find that anywhere, because it doesn't exist. Any time you modify a number by means of it becoming a set number, you are overriding a previously set number. Just because one started out as the base statistic doesn't mean it didn't also count as a set number for all game statistic purposes.

Edit: what does "counts as" mean if it doesn't mean for ALL intents and purposes?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Is the armor value above 11? Yes. Why? Because quantum shielding has raised it above that. Is the armor value above 12? No. Why? Because lance has lowered it to that number. Are both modifiers affecting the armor value of the unit in question? Yes. Is that allowed by the rules set, in particular multiple modifiers? Yes, because the rules for multiple modifiers states that you apply ANY set modifiers last. It doesn't say that only one may affect the outcome of the statistic, just that any that can apply will do so.

Since the lance rule applies only so long as the quantum shielding rule has already applied it negates the full benefit of quantum shielding without errasingbthe entire benefit of it. Multiple set modifiers may affect the same statistic, you just don't seem to like how that plays out in this instance.

And before you say again that there are no rules to support this, ask yourself "where does it say I have to CHOOSE a single set modifier to be the only one affecting a statistic?"

You will not find that anywhere, because it doesn't exist. Any time you modify a number by means of it becoming a set number, you are overriding a previously set number. Just because one started out as the base statistic doesn't mean it didn't also count as a set number for all game statistic purposes.

Edit: what does "counts as" mean if it doesn't mean for ALL intents and purposes?

Do you think a constant rule works only once and then is done or does it continuously work?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Is the armor value above 11? Yes. Why? Because quantum shielding has raised it above that. Is the armor value above 12? No. Why? Because lance has lowered it to that number. Are both modifiers affecting the armor value of the unit in question? Yes. Is that allowed by the rules set, in particular multiple modifiers? Yes, because the rules for multiple modifiers states that you apply ANY set modifiers last. It doesn't say that only one may affect the outcome of the statistic, just that any that can apply will do so.

Since the lance rule applies only so long as the quantum shielding rule has already applied it negates the full benefit of quantum shielding without errasingbthe entire benefit of it. Multiple set modifiers may affect the same statistic, you just don't seem to like how that plays out in this instance.

Again, show me the rules that allow a set value modifier triggered by another set value modifier to supersede the triggering modifier. You make claims, but you have yet to support them.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
And before you say again that there are no rules to support this, ask yourself "where does it say I have to CHOOSE a single set modifier to be the only one affecting a statistic?"

Because one must be used. If QS is doing its job, you roll against AV 13. If Lance is doing its job, you roll against AV 12. But if Lance is successful in doing its job, QS really isn't doing its job. Which one is allowed to override the other is the question. The rules as such, do not provide one in the order it establishes.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You will not find that anywhere, because it doesn't exist. Any time you modify a number by means of it becoming a set number, you are overriding a previously set number. Just because one started out as the base statistic doesn't mean it didn't also count as a set number for all game statistic purposes.

Show me where in Multiple Modifiers rule, or anywhere else in the rulebook, that this course of action is allowed. It is allowed against a base number. It is allowed against a number modified by multipliers, dividers, additives, and subtractives. What is not addressed is when a set value modifier comes across another set value modifier. Timing is NEVER mentioned to be a factor when it comes to multiple modifiers, why should it in this case?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Edit: what does "counts as" mean if it doesn't mean for ALL intents and purposes?

A temporary modification of circumstances to adjust from the original to a new, but still temporary variant. A Hovering Flyer counts as a Fast Skimmer. It is still a Flyer, but it acts like a Fast Skimmer on the ground, with the option to resume being a Zooming Flyer that a Fast Skimmer does not have.

"Counts as" means that for all purposes in the game you are to treat it as if it were what is referenced until told otherwise. For the fast skimmer/flyer example, if someone had prefered enemy "skimmers" would the unit that counts as a fast skimmers not be a viable target for that unit while it was classified as such? If something else had prefered enemy "flyer" at the time would it get its bonus as well? For the first, it will. You know that to be true because you are told to treat it as such and it is therefor subject to all the rules that would normally entail. For the second, it won't. Because to be able to gain that benefit the target would have to be a flyer and at that point it isn't because it counts as a skimmer for all rules purposes.

Quantum shielding counts as av13 for EVERYTHING in the game with no rule stating otherwise, why do you both for some reason believe that it has magical protection from being affected by a rule that affects av13? You have not answered my query as to where it states that something cannot have two or more set modifiers actively affecting a unit simultaneously.

Quantum shield says to treat it as armor value 13, no special stipulations or circumstances. It is armor value 13 until penned.

Lance tells you to treat a unit with armor value 13 as 12.

Both modifiers are affecting the armor value of the unit, both are allowed to do so per the wording in the multiple modifiers section of the core rule book. Lance's modifier is applied after QS because QS provides the prerequisites for Lance's rules to take effect.

The bonus from lance overrides the bonus provided by QS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a constant rule works until something disallows it from continuing. A unit doesn't have the benefits provided by haywire if it isn't targeting a vehicle. Haywire hasn't stopped working, it just isn't taking full effect in that situation.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a constant rule works until something disallows it from continuing. A unit doesn't have the benefits provided by haywire if it isn't targeting a vehicle. Haywire hasn't stopped working, it just isn't taking full effect in that situation.

Where in the Lance special rule disallows QS from continuing? Haywire only activates when a weapon with the haywire special rule hits a vehicle, not when it targets it, this is when the special rule resolves because it has a 'When X happens' statement, Haywire is not a constant effect.


You say that Lance's modifier is applied after QS but said previously that QS and Lance applied at the same time, which is it? Do you have rules to support your claim?

why do you both for some reason believe that it has magical protection from being affected by a rule that affects av13?

because like lance QS is a special rule and both are set modifiers that are both constant. The rules tell us to apply all set modifiers last. The set modiers from Lance and QS are different values so this is a conflict since what they are trying to set are two different values. The rules tell us that when a conflict like this happens we take the rule from the codex over the rule in the BRB. I'm not saying lance isn't effecting it, I'm saying Lance's set value doesn't work since there in conflict.

You have not answered my query as to where it states that something cannot have two or more set modifiers actively affecting a unit simultaneously.

permissive rule set, show us where two set values can effect a unit simultaneously.

It specifies in the lance special rule what exactly it does to units with an armor value above 12. Since the bonus from quantum shielding states to count it as armor value 13, with no reference to treat it as anything other than armor value 13 for all intents and purposes, it HAS to be affected by anything that would normally affect something with armor value thirteen.

Quantum shielding literally tells you that lance weapons affect it, and lance tells how it does so.

Every other rule you bring up has absolutely no bearing on how the two interact. The only way they would be involved (as I have said before, multiple times, with no direct response to invalidate what I have said) is if the rule for sequencing said to apply a (as in one singular) set modifier. It doesn't. It says to apply set modifiers (thereby allowing more than one if applicable) last. Since one set modifier gives direct permission for another set modifier to come into play and modify it further in this instance, and there are no rules in place to disallow said action, the action takes place and the final set armor value if a lance weapon targets a vehicle with quantum shielding is 12.

This OP has got to be the most stubborn fether on the face of the earth.

How many times does someone have to say "QS confers AV13, Lance counts anything higher than AV12 to be AV 12"

Its a very logical statement that really can't be undermined in anyway shape or form unless the person arguing against it won't back down.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
This OP has got to be the most stubborn fether on the face of the earth.

How many times does someone have to say "QS confers AV13, Lance counts anything higher than AV12 to be AV 12"

Its a very logical statement that really can't be undermined in anyway shape or form unless the person arguing against it won't back down.

Its a bit disingenuous to simply say "QS confers AV13". The entire problem is the fact that Quantum Shielding says "count as av13" which is the exact same wording as the lance USR's "count as Av12". they are both special rules trying to make a vehicles armor value count as something else in the exact same way (and at the same time) and that is not simple to resolve.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:"Counts as" means that for all purposes in the game you are to treat it as if it were what is referenced until told otherwise. For the fast skimmer/flyer example, if someone had prefered enemy "skimmers" would the unit that counts as a fast skimmers not be a viable target for that unit while it was classified as such? If something else had prefered enemy "flyer" at the time would it get its bonus as well? For the first, it will. You know that to be true because you are told to treat it as such and it is therefor subject to all the rules that would normally entail. For the second, it won't. Because to be able to gain that benefit the target would have to be a flyer and at that point it isn't because it counts as a skimmer for all rules purposes.

That's one way to look at it.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Quantum shielding counts as av13 for EVERYTHING in the game with no rule stating otherwise, why do you both for some reason believe that it has magical protection from being affected by a rule that affects av13? You have not answered my query as to where it states that something cannot have two or more set modifiers actively affecting a unit simultaneously.

Already stated. Are you incapable of remembering from one post to another?

For some reason, you think that Lance has a magical property to ignore the other rules, but without any actual support from the rules. When will you start quoting?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Quantum shield says to treat it as armor value 13, no special stipulations or circumstances. It is armor value 13 until penned.

As a Modifier, it has special stipulations and circumstances (as if being penned wasn't one). Any thing that tried to treat it as divided or multiplied would be overridden by Quantum Shielding. Anything that tried to add or subtract from the AV of Quantum Shielding would be overridden by Quantum Shielding.

Why? Not because of a linear order of operations, but the order of operations supplied by Multiple Modifiers. The order of operations you ignore.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Lance tells you to treat a unit with armor value 13 as 12.

Yeup, and back when Quantum Shielding was just a simple +2 Modifier, this wouldn't be in argument.

But no where does it state that this overrides another set value modifier, either.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Both modifiers are affecting the armor value of the unit, both are allowed to do so per the wording in the multiple modifiers section of the core rule book. Lance's modifier is applied after QS because QS provides the prerequisites for Lance's rules to take effect.

Not according to the order of operations that exist.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:The bonus from lance overrides the bonus provided by QS.

Not literally. At least not as you've properly quoted so far.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:It specifies in the lance special rule what exactly it does to units with an armor value above 12. Since the bonus from quantum shielding states to count it as armor value 13, with no reference to treat it as anything other than armor value 13 for all intents and purposes, it HAS to be affected by anything that would normally affect something with armor value thirteen.

No, it does not, because it is a set value modifier. I've gone over this above. Try and prove that wrong.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Quantum shielding literally tells you that lance weapons affect it, and lance tells how it does so.

My copy of Quantum Shielding makes no mention of Lance, either allowing or or preventing it.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Every other rule you bring up has absolutely no bearing on how the two interact.

So, Multiple Modifiers has no bearing? How so? What tells us to use a "real life" order of operations for the case of Lance rather than the standard order of operations already established? Because you want a clean transition without conflict? What in the rulebook supports this?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:The only way they would be involved (as I have said before, multiple times, with no direct response to invalidate what I have said) is if the rule for sequencing said to apply a (as in one singular) set modifier.

Sequencing rules does not support your interpretation since they do not have resolution points to conflict, and the only hope you'd have in order to allow for Lance to override Quantum Shielding is by Sequencing. Oops.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Since one set modifier gives direct permission for another set modifier to come into play and modify it further in this instance,

Liar. Normally, I would just call you incorrect, but we've been over this enough times and you have had more than enough time to research this, so either you are inept or deliberately attempting to mislead. Though, I AM tempted to consider you just inept at this point because you insist on using rules that the rulebook does not carry.

Lance simply states: "Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12." I do not see at any point where it states anything resembling like either Snap Shot or Hard To Hit which give their rules priority over even codex advanced rules. Nor do I see where it says anything like giving "direct permission for another set modifier to come into play and modify it further."

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:and there are no rules in place to disallow said action, the action takes place and the final set armor value if a lance weapon targets a vehicle with quantum shielding is 12.

There are plenty, if you would actually research them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its a bit disingenuous to simply say "QS confers AV13". The entire problem is the fact that Quantum Shielding says "count as av13" which is the exact same wording as the lance USR's "count as Av12". they are both special rules trying to make a vehicles armor value count as something else in the exact same way (and at the same time)...

Pretty much.

 CrownAxe wrote:
...and that is not simple to resolve.

It is not as simple to resolve as Tactical_Spam thinks it is, true. But it is rather simple if you consider them to conflict and then invoke BvA. That is pretty simple (but agreed that it isn't AS simple).

If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period. If it said "for the purposes of determining glancing or penetrating hits" then you would have a point. It does not.

Lance affects everything with an armor value above 12. QS equipped vehicle qualify as such because they count as av13. These are both FACTS. There is no reason for you to ignore what is a simple and obvious answer. Lance applies to QS equipped vehicles just as it would any other av13 vehicle because the QS rule tells you to treat it as any other av13 vehicle until it takes a penetrating hit.

Yes QS makes a vehicle armor higher the 12. but that doesn't give lance permssion to ignore QS. it gives permission for you to use the lance rule. Both rules are still trying to be in effect

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period. If it said "for the purposes of determining glancing or penetrating hits" then you would have a point. It does not.

So, who said otherwise, and how does this actually affect anything? Tie it together. Preferably with a rule reference or quote.

Yes, QS is counting the Front and Sides for the purposes of determining glancing and penetrating hits. It is also counting it for the purposes of Ramming. It is also counting it for the purposes of sitting pretty.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Lance affects everything with an armor value above 12.

Inaccurate. It only affects vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12. So buildings are not on that list, but rather besides the point. More importantly, it does not state it affects, much less override, vehicle Armour Value Modifiers.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There is no reason for you to ignore what is a simple and obvious answer. Lance applies to QS equipped vehicles just as it would any other av13 vehicle because the QS rule tells you to treat it as any other av13 vehicle until it takes a penetrating hit.

There is plenty of reasons for me to ignore such a simpleton and only-obvious-in-the-real-world-but-forgets-this-is-40K answer. I have given them, but you have not properly countered with actual rules.

Quote up, or at least properly reference up.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period. If it said "for the purposes of determining glancing or penetrating hits" then you would have a point. It does not.

Lance affects everything with an armor value above 12. QS equipped vehicle qualify as such because they count as av13. These are both FACTS. There is no reason for you to ignore what is a simple and obvious answer. Lance applies to QS equipped vehicles just as it would any other av13 vehicle because the QS rule tells you to treat it as any other av13 vehicle until it takes a penetrating hit.

If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period

I feel we are so close to making a break through here. You just made this claim, why do you immediately change your mind that QS's rule can be broken with Lance? Please show RULES to back up your claims. You have already said that if we aren't counting a vehicle with QS as av 13 we are breaking a rule.


Show us a rule that says when two constant set modifiers are taking place one overlaps the other when it does not explicitly state it ignores another special rule.

Show us a rule that says Lance can ignore QS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
This OP has got to be the most stubborn fether on the face of the earth.

How many times does someone have to say "QS confers AV13, Lance counts anything higher than AV12 to be AV 12"

Its a very logical statement that really can't be undermined in anyway shape or form unless the person arguing against it won't back down.

when the other side does not and even states they refuse to give rule quotes to back up their claim and hasn't refuted any points made it is pretty hard to take their word for it.

If you would like to contribute to this discussion by citing rules to explain your side's claims or use rules to refute claims made instead of insulting people (which is against the tenets) that would be wonderful.

Buildings are affected by lance as well because the rules for buildings say to treat them like vehicles, don't be silly.

I have said, ad nauseum, that the other rules YOU keep referencing have no application in the way these two files interact. Are they both set modifiers? Yes. Can more than one set modifier affect a unit? Yes. Does a vehicle that counts as a vehicle with av13 actually count as a vehicle with av13? Yes. Does lance affect vehicles with av 13? Yes. Does it then apply a modifier to said unit? Yes. Are there allowed to be two or more set modifiers affecting a unit without necessarily canceling one another out entirely? Yes.

Where do you see an issue requiring the involvement of other rules? If the lance isn't affecting a vehicle with quantum shielding you are breaking the rules for both lance and quantum shielding at the same time. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oberron wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period. If it said "for the purposes of determining glancing or penetrating hits" then you would have a point. It does not.

Lance affects everything with an armor value above 12. QS equipped vehicle qualify as such because they count as av13. These are both FACTS. There is no reason for you to ignore what is a simple and obvious answer. Lance applies to QS equipped vehicles just as it would any other av13 vehicle because the QS rule tells you to treat it as any other av13 vehicle until it takes a penetrating hit.

If you are not counting the armor value of 13 as a 13 for all intents and purposes, then you are not following the rules for quantum shielding. Period

I feel we are so close to making a break through here. You just made this claim, why do you immediately change your mind that QS's rule can be broken with Lance? Please show RULES to back up your claims. You have already said that if we aren't counting a vehicle with QS as av 13 we are breaking a rule.


Show us a rule that says when two constant set modifiers are taking place one overlaps the other when it does not explicitly state it ignores another special rule.

Show us a rule that says Lance can ignore QS.

How about the quantum shielding rule where it says to count it as av13 for all intents and purposes and you feel that that means it is somehow immune to something that affects av13. Or, you could look at the lance rule where it says specifically that it will affect something with av 13 (due to ave 13 being a higher armor value than av12) every other rule you bring in is an attempt at finding a loophole to support your claims while attempting to ignore the actual rules involved in order to gain some sort of advantage. Counts as means counts as and the rule for QS does not say (the armor value is thirteen and cannot be lowered until it suffers a penetrating hit. It simply and eloquently says to count it as av13.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Buildings are affected by lance as well because the rules for buildings say to treat them like vehicles, don't be silly.

Than why does it make a distinction? If it just said Armour Value, it would be covered. In this case, it calls it out for vehicle Armour Values.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I have said, ad nauseum, that the other rules YOU keep referencing have no application in the way these two files interact. Are they both set modifiers? Yes. Can more than one set modifier affect a unit? Yes. Does a vehicle that counts as a vehicle with av13 actually count as a vehicle with av13? Yes. Does lance affect vehicles with av 13? Yes. Does it then apply a modifier to said unit? Yes. Are there allowed to be two or more set modifiers affecting a unit without necessarily canceling one another out entirely? Yes.

Where do you see an issue requiring the involvement of other rules? If the lance isn't affecting a vehicle with quantum shielding you are breaking the rules for both lance and quantum shielding at the same time. Period.

Incorrect. But we've done this dance. And the only thing you can provide is that it requires one set aside an order of operations in the rulebook in favor of a real world order of operations, with zero quotes to support the change. Quote up or shut up.

If Lance affects the modifier in Quantum Shielding, it is allowing a Set Value Modifier to modify another Set Value Modifier. Lance does not explicitly state this, nor support this.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
How about the quantum shielding rule where it says to count it as av13 for all intents and purposes and you feel that that means it is somehow immune to something that affects av13.

A slight misquote, but it is not really pertinent to the discussion.

Assesment Question for you: If Lance said it "counted the vehicle Armour Value as -2" for vehicle Armour Values over 12, would you still support it doing that to Quantum Shielding's AV 13? If so, why?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Or, you could look at the lance rule where it says specifically that it will affect something with av 13 (due to ave 13 being a higher armor value than av12) every other rule you bring in is an attempt at finding a loophole to support your claims while attempting to ignore the actual rules involved in order to gain some sort of advantage. Counts as means counts as and the rule for QS does not say (the armor value is thirteen and cannot be lowered until it suffers a penetrating hit. It simply and eloquently says to count it as av13.

Not looking for loopholes, just trying to apply the Multiple Modifiers rules as written, and they generate a conflict. Neither rule states they override other modifiers (probably since the current QS did not even exist when the current rulebook came out, and even if it did, they probably forgot to patch it, anyway, like PotMS and the Shooting Sequence).

These discussions would go so much smoother if people left the snark at home.


There's clearly not going to be an agreement on this one. Discuss with your opponent if in doubt.