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Small back story. Bought the 2 player starter and figured id give it a go with the fiancée/ I used to play 4-5 years ago but haven't since then so it was a great set to relearn and have her learn. She instantly loved it and we are nearly finished with the missions. She wants to buy a starter and I am looking to get one also.

Question, what's the difficulty in learning and playing the following crews. Here are the ones she was interested in and ones I was interested in:

Her:
Molly
Tara
Dreamer
Kaeris
Rasputina

Me:
Sonnia
Lucius
Nicodem
Ironsides
Misaki

Tara is a very easy crow to learn and synergises with Horror Molly quite well. Molly is easy too. They both have quirks; Tara with her activation order/fast/slow/bury shenanigans and Molly with her summoning chart.

Dreamer is very tricky. He's not too tough as Dreamer, he's a solid caster and he's slow. He requires a lot of book keeping too.

Kaeris is simple. Set stuff on fire, take the upgrade that makes your models immune to burning damage, heal them for their burning condition, and force resolution of burning.

Raspy's quite simple. Sit back and set up Ice pillars and mirrors. Then blast away.

As for Sonnia, she's tricky in that she doesn't have the dedicated support Raspy does. She needs to set burning up and there isn't much in guild that does that, that's out. She's very good in capable hands though.

Lucius is tricky too. His crew requires guardsmen and mimics to work at it's best. And a tonne of minions.

Nicode is easy to learn and hard to master. He's hands down the best summoner in game. Because he can summon ANY model in the faction. But hes squishy too and slow.

Ironsides is like a train. She takes a while to get steam, but when she does she hits like a brick. Once you can get Adrenaline flowing, she can transition from her 1AP melee into her 2AP melee and back again as long as she has enough Adrenaline to lower.

Misaki is another tricky one at first. She cant take a hit, but she can dish it out. If you look at her built in trigger, it will explain a lot about her playstyle. If you don't have it at hand, she can push out of combat. So, you charge in, 3 attacks and you push out on the last one.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Nicode is easy to learn and hard to master. He's hands down the best summoner in game. Because he can summon ANY model in the faction. But hes squishy too and slow.

Not quite right. He can only summon undead minions. No henchmen or enforcers or living minions. He's not really squishy either. 14 wounds, Impossible to wound and he's usually behind a wall of undead. If you want to move him then you can just lure him with a rotten belle. He rarely needs more than 2-3 moves per game.

Good to know!

Is is playable starter vs starter or does he really need a box of the Mindless Zombies to be worth playing?

 Gargantuan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Nicode is easy to learn and hard to master. He's hands down the best summoner in game. Because he can summon ANY model in the faction. But hes squishy too and slow.

Not quite right. He can only summon undead minions. No henchmen or enforcers or living minions. He's not really squishy either. 14 wounds, Impossible to wound and he's usually behind a wall of undead. If you want to move him then you can just lure him with a rotten belle. He rarely needs more than 2-3 moves per game.

That's still squishy. You could have 20 wounds and impossible to wound, but when you need to flip a seven to draw with your opponent when he flips a four, that's squishy. And a wall of undead means nothing to a competent player. but that's derailing the thread. Let's just agree for the purposes of remaining on track that he's a simpler master to learn. Probably even the best resser starter master.


As for the zombies, he doesn't need them. I've had him top deck two hanged against me in a single activation, thanks to the Sebastian and a crooked man. A stone and a high card banked can guarantee you a summon at a key point.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Nicode is easy to learn and hard to master. He's hands down the best summoner in game. Because he can summon ANY model in the faction. But hes squishy too and slow.

Not quite right. He can only summon undead minions. No henchmen or enforcers or living minions. He's not really squishy either. 14 wounds, Impossible to wound and he's usually behind a wall of undead. If you want to move him then you can just lure him with a rotten belle. He rarely needs more than 2-3 moves per game.

That's still squishy. You could have 20 wounds and impossible to wound, but when you need to flip a seven to draw with your opponent when he flips a four, that's squishy. And a wall of undead means nothing to a competent player. but that's derailing the thread. Let's just agree for the purposes of remaining on track that he's a simpler master to learn. Probably even the best resser starter master.


As for the zombies, he doesn't need them. I've had him top deck two hanged against me in a single activation, thanks to the Sebastian and a crooked man. A stone and a high card banked can guarantee you a summon at a key point.

The only problem with starting Nico as your first Master is that you'll want to buy the entire faction for summons. Now, I have ended up buying the entire 10T faction and most of the Neverborn, so I kind of wish I had just started with Nico like I had wanted to, but it's something to be aware of.

Interesting to see what others think.

Personally I think dreamer is pretty easy to use early, but requires buying a lot (his starter is pretty crap) and some of those models are still waiting for plastics.

Comparitively I think Tara is trickier to learn to play well, because she has a lot of abilities that you can get trapped into (dumping cards from your hand too often, lots of upgrades, etc.)

That said, were I a new player I would look at a few things.

Do you plan on expanding beyond one master?

If so which faction has the most masters you like.

You fiancee has 2 masters from 2 different factions

Ressers:Molly, Tara
Arcanists: Kaeris, Raspy.

As such she may want to go away from the dreamer simply because if she wants to expand to another master she likes either of the other factions give her 2 masters.

Of the above I think ressers is the way to go as Molly and Tara have more overlap in usable models than Kaeris and Raspy. That said I would also look at other in faction models and see which faction has the most of those that you like.

As for you, you have the most interest in Guild based on masters Sonnia and Lucius. So I might lead that way starting with Sonnia as she is easier to play.

Thanks for the reply!

I would guess in the future we would expand masters. I see us getting starter each, play a few times with it then get another model around same solestone cost each to expand and go that way about it.

After looking it over more I think she is at a crossroads between Rasputina and Tara

Im stuck at Sonnia, Ironsides, Nico. My playstyle is more run in and smash face, while she likes to do range combat.

I also want to avoid either of us getting a master that counters the other really hard. Such as if she wanted Rasputina, I would not get Sonnia.

If you want face smashing, go Ironsides; Nico doesnt do that at all. He's the ultimate support master. He has abilities that buff his crew.

Sonnia's entire gimmick is to sit back and set stuff on fire.

Ironsides is a bareknuckle boxer. She wants to be in combat. If she cant charge, she has an action to make your opponent come to you. She has a trigger that transposes her from her basic melee attack into her second, and another trigger that transposes her back again.


Although, Sonnia and Raspy is always fun.

Breng77 wrote:
Personally I think dreamer is pretty easy to use early, but requires buying a lot (his starter is pretty crap) and some of those models are still waiting for plastics

I think saying his starter is 'crap' is a bit misleading. It's a perfectly fine starter that suffers from what Kirais does - almost none of it adds stones to your crew, with the addition of Chompy unfortunately further adding plastic to the box that won't add stones. You get a dual model master, his totems, and a few models that you probably wouldn't pay to hire since various effects from Dreamer and Coppelius summon them. So the only thing in the box that costs stones is Coppelius and any Daydreams you want to start with.

Again, that doesn't make it a crap starter, just a standard lean starter for a master that, at its core, summons things. They could have added stones to it by replacing the Alps with a pair of Stitched Togethers (which would only add stones if you don't go for Dreams of Pain), but then you'd have effects firing off telling you to summon Alps with no Alp models to use.

I was looking at the dreamer and his card. Kind of underwhelming, as we plan to each buy a starter and play with it a few times before purchase. Id go full on Chompy Bits, but he only comes from an attack from the dreamer, which seemed pretty meh, and to long to get him out there unless I'm missing something

str00dles1 wrote:
I was looking at the dreamer and his card. Kind of underwhelming, as we plan to each buy a starter and play with it a few times before purchase. Id go full on Chompy Bits, but he only comes from an attack from the dreamer, which seemed pretty meh, and to long to get him out there unless I'm missing something

The Dreamer is the support model. Lord Chompy Bits is the beater. Take a look at the Dreamer's upgrades and see how he can really shine.

For dreamer you probably want to buy one or two extra bits straight away, as his starter box is mostly free (Chompy) or things you'd only want to summon (Alps). If you get a few other bits and pieces though Dreamer is super good, especially once Wyrd get round to releasing some of it in plastic (Stitched and Lilu/Lilitu).

 -Loki- wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Personally I think dreamer is pretty easy to use early, but requires buying a lot (his starter is pretty crap) and some of those models are still waiting for plastics

I think saying his starter is 'crap' is a bit misleading. It's a perfectly fine starter that suffers from what Kirais does - almost none of it adds stones to your crew, with the addition of Chompy unfortunately further adding plastic to the box that won't add stones. You get a dual model master, his totems, and a few models that you probably wouldn't pay to hire since various effects from Dreamer and Coppelius summon them. So the only thing in the box that costs stones is Coppelius and any Daydreams you want to start with.

Again, that doesn't make it a crap starter, just a standard lean starter for a master that, at its core, summons things. They could have added stones to it by replacing the Alps with a pair of Stitched Togethers (which would only add stones if you don't go for Dreams of Pain), but then you'd have effects firing off telling you to summon Alps with no Alp models to use.

Which is largely why I would classify it as crap. If you are looking to play starter V starter it is terrible. It has a ton of stuff dreamer will often use, but almost nothing he will ever hire (short of a couple day dreams). Everything in the box is something he typically would summon (unless going Chompy dreamer, and then it is really only Coppelius that he might hire). Kirai suffers from the same fate. Which means in order to really play him you need to purchase more.

Just as an example Dreamers starter contains (if you hire everything) 23 SS worth of models. However, 6 of that is daydreams which are really support pieces (and peons) and another 9 are from Alps which are also Peons. So he has only one significant model. So most strategies and schemes will be super difficult.

Compare that to Say Tara at 27 stones, but with 6 significant Models, or Rasputina with 5 at 25 SS. Ironsides at 32 Soulstones and 5 significant models. etc.

As a starter it does not match up as a playable set. It is a set of useful models, but not for use as a crew on its own.


@Stroodles: As for his card being underwhelming, a lot of his power comes through his upgrades, without those he is kind of Meh.

If you're interested in getting raw point value out of your crew box, GMorts has been keeping track of the totals per box: http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/m2e-starter-set-soulstone-values.html

The crews you listed in the OP stack up like so:

Her:
Molly 22/26/32
Tara 27/30/37
Dreamer 23/27/39
Kaeris 21/24/29
Rasputina 25/29/36

Me:
Sonnia 27/31/38
Lucius 31/34/40
Nicodem 33/36/44
Ironsides 32/34/40
Misaki 31/36/42

Reading that as crew cost, then adding max soulstones, then adding max upgrades that come in the box.

Clearly not the best way to choose your starting force, but if you're new, on the fence and want to limit your immediate purchases, it can help. I'll second the advice to choose a master from a faction that you like other masters in. Malifaux rewards having breadth in one faction, and you will want to mess around with other masters, if you don't already

And it also became clear to me pretty quickly that you're meant to buy the starter box then an obligatory smaller box of thematically related dudes, both to help the master get their schtick on and to hit 50 points (in many cases, others simply become functional 35-40 SS crews).

- Salvage

Thanks for the breakdown!

Good to know the soulstone box values.

If I got Sonnia, would it be highly in my favor for winning vs Rasputina? I think the Fire VS ice is a cool idea, but I know Sonnia is built to kill Mages.

I dont want to buy it if its just such a counter to Rasputina its not fun or hard to win

It makes Raspy's life a bit more difficult if you take Sonnia's counterspell aura upgrade, but apart from that it should be fine. It may not be the most tactical game however, with your masters attempting to blast everything else off the board.

 grrrfranky wrote:
It makes Raspy's life a bit more difficult if you take Sonnia's counterspell aura upgrade, but apart from that it should be fine. It may not be the most tactical game however, with your masters attempting to blast everything else off the board.

Raspy isn't really suit dependent on her blast attacks. Counterspell aura only affects casts. So her defensive triggers would still be fully functioning.

I'd put the match in favour of Raspy to be honest. Sonnia has more blasts, but Raspy has actual support within the faction,

Thanks all for the help! She got Raspy and I ended up picking up Nico.

str00dles1 wrote:
Thanks all for the help! She got Raspy and I ended up picking up Nico.

Should be a good matchup with whether you can summon things faster than she can blast them! Just a warning with Nico, you'll probably end up with most of the resser faction ;-) He can summon almost anything so you'll want a few extra bits. For raspy you could probably just pick up the december acolyte box and you'll have a decent themed 50ss crew.

Yea, I was looking at options for both of us to expand. I did see Rapsy has the december people and Snowstorm and another model comming out very soon for them for options of theme

Looking at Nico, I was planning on a box of the mindless zombies, the zombie hounds for bone finding and speed, and the flesh golem cause I want a big zombie

I also saw there is a box set of the Zombie/robot/academic people? Around 7-10 SS a piece. Are they worth getting for him for a big hitter or best to stick with the swarmy kind of feel?

str00dles1 wrote:
Are they worth getting for him for a big hitter or best to stick with the swarmy kind of feel?

I have a feeling the answer to both sides of that question is: Yes

Somebody else can tell you about the Students, but you'd essentially get it to summon the one that best kills what you're fighting. Watched a local Nico game where he Laughed up some Mindless Zombies, but really only to summon a Student of Viscera to do horrible things to Neverborn things. So there's both kits - zombs + students - in action!

- Salvage