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I recently charged an invisibility unit into a unit of Eldar wraiths with d-sycthes. I was thinking he needed 6s to hit me until he picked up the dice to roll 5 D3 "D" hits. Oooops ---- I knew instantly, I had made a mistake or did I? The wall of death rule says you can fire overwatch even though they are templates. The invisibility blessing says the enemy can only fire snap shots. The wall of death is not a snap shot. How do you play this? Thanks.

Wall of Death IS a Snap Shot applied when a Template weapon is in Overwatch. And that is where things get fuzzy.

In one way, it is kind of like an Invisible unit charging Dark Angels with Grim Resolve.

Invisible unit charges a D-sycthe unit, the wall of fire rule does d3 hits to the unit per model, you can't snap fire template weapons but your not, your simply doing d3 hits to a unit, it's a sweet little way around invisible units

Wall of death rule states:

"Template weapons can fire overwatch even though they cannot fire snap shots"

(Weapon rules, p173).

To me, that reads as confirmation that it is not a snapshot - it specifically says they can't - hence, if there is a second reason that you are limited to snap shots (beyon the more general overwatch rules), such as invisibility or deathleaper, you cannot use it, because it's not a snap shot.

Can not agree with your reasoning, there is no need to create an outcome where Template weapons firing Overwatch are no longer Snap Shooting... permission to fire Overwatch is all they need.

The real question is:
Does Permission to Fire Overwatch obey other 'Must Snap Shot' Restrictions?

So where are we?

The d-scythes can fire and hit invisible units at D3 hits per template (kind of like HoW gets auto hits on invisible units) or is there still a question regarding "must snap shot"?

Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Wall of Death is not a snap shot.

 insaniak wrote:
Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Incorrect. "...enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6." Nothing about only being hit by Snap Shots.

The Shot may or may not still be a 'Snap Shot...'

Reasoning of Yay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death over-writes the 'templates can not fire' section within the Snap-Shot Rule

Reasoning of Nay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death gives permission for the Template weapon regardless if it is a Snap-Shot

insaniak is correct - brilliant !

Wall of Death isn't stopped by Snap Shots, nor is it really even Shooting Attacks.

Invisibility does not state the models may only be hit by snap shots.

It says enemy units can only fire snap shots at the target unit.

If it stated the first thing scattered blast markers and templates that clip some invis models in addition to the target unit would have no effect on invisible units, which is not true. It would also make invis models immune to explosions, etc.

Charistoph wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Incorrect. "...enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6." Nothing about only being hit by Snap Shots.

Poor paraphrasing on my part, but the point still stands.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Shot may or may not still be a 'Snap Shot...'

It really can't.

Because -

Reasoning of Yay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death over-writes the 'templates can not fire' section within the Snap-Shot Rule

...Nothing in this changes the fact that Wall of Death isn't listed as a snap shot.


It's something that happens even though the weapon can't fire snap shots. It's not a snap shot.



The closest you get to allowing Wall of Death against Invisible targets is through the argument that the models don't actually 'fire' the weapon (as in, they don't follow the normal shooting process), but WoD simply applies hits to the target unit.

Which is shaky ground, IMO.



Having said that, I would play as allowing WoD to apply, as the rules in this case are silly. Being charged by something you can't see is exactly the time you would be firing up those flamers and roasting everything you can reach.

Wall of Death is not a Shot, period, being nothing more then an always present sub-set of the Template Special Rule....

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.
- Resolve Overwatch

In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

JinxDragon wrote:
Wall of Death is not a Shot, period, being nothing more then an always present sub-set of the Template Special Rule....

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.
- Resolve Overwatch

In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

Or C) be some sort of atrociously written special rule that is neither a "shot" (i.e. shooting attack) nor a CC attack. It is like Stomp in this way.

JinxDragon wrote:
In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

Sure. And WoD meets option 'b'. It is given permission to fire despite not being a snap shot.

Hmm this is interesting. I always thought the invisible units would be automatically hit by a wall of death just like non-invisible units. Having read this thread and the rules again it seems:

Models firing overwatch with wall of death automatically inflict D3 wounds on the charging unit.
Invisibility rules say enemy units can only fire snap shots at a target unit.
Wall of death rules explicitly say template weapons cannot fire snap shots.

So even though non-invisible units are automatically hit by wall of death overwatch, wall of death cannot be fired in the first place against invisible units that are charging because it's not a snap shot. So if they can't fire wall of death the target unit can't possibly be hit.

Unless you say that Wall of Death isn't a shooting attack at all, of course.

Tonberry7,
It is the Snap Shots Rule itself that prevents a Template Weapon from firing Snap Shots.
Wall of Death is simply underlining this fact when it mentions 'even though Template Weapons can not fire Snap Shots...' for some reason beyond my comprehension they felt the need to remind us where the Restriction preventing the Template Weapon from Firing was coming from.

Unit1126PLL,
It mentions firing a Weapon throughout the Rule, an action which generates shots.
Within a Rule only ever used when resolving the shooting attack known as Overwatch....

Invisibility wrote:Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

Snapshots wrote:Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Overwatch wrote:Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

Wall of Death wrote:Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

I'd say that Overwatch is a special instance of Snapshots where Template weapons behave unique. Having to Snapshot while having to Snapshot doesn't change anything.

If you have the ability to Overwatch on full Ballistic Skill (or even at BS2), does Invisibility reduce that to BS1 again? I'd say no for the same reason - it's still "Overwatch Snapshot", so Overwatch specific rules apply - like Wall of Death.

Wall of Death is automatic hits. Automatic hits automatically hit units, even Invisible units. Hammer of Wrath works on them too.

A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

 jokerkd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

Exactly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

Exactly.

But the situation in question is during Overwatch, and template weapons have a way to deal damage during Overwatch snapshooting - this is not taken away.

Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

 insaniak wrote:
Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

As I said there is no "uber snapshot".

Unit A tries to charge unit b.
Unit B may overwatch and decides to do so.
Unit B must perform all shots as snapshots as per overwatch rules, and perform all shots as snapshots as per Invisibility rules.
Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

nekooni wrote:

Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

It's not a matter of the rule applying again. It's still in effect.

You're making the same mistake as those who suggest that deep striking models should be able to assault if they disembarked from an Assault vehicle.

A restriction that is imposed by two different special rules doesn't go away if only one of those rules is removed. You have to cancel both rules for the restriction to no longer apply.

WoD allows the weapon to fire Overwatch even though it can't snap fire, but it doesn't change the fact that the shot is not a Snap Shot.

Invisibility only allows you to fire snap shots at the target.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

The higher BS would be fine, as Invisibility doesn't require BS1. Just Snap Shots. If you fire Snap Shots at BS2, they're still Snap Shots.

nekooni wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

As I said there is no "uber snapshot".

Unit A tries to charge unit b.
Unit B may overwatch and decides to do so.
Unit B must perform all shots as snapshots as per overwatch rules, and perform all shots as snapshots as per Invisibility rules.
Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

you can apply the " can only fire snapshots" rule every time a weapon needs to be selected to make any attack against an invisible unit

Template weapons simply cannot ever make snap shots. nothing but snap shots may be fired at an invisible unit

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

Modifying the BS of a snapshot would work against invisible units as it would still be a snapshot.

Zone mortalis reaction fire would not work because it's an alternative to snap shots, though it's optional so you can still fire snap shots instead.

Edit: ninja'd

Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

That is why I don't rule out the possibility that Wall of Death is talking about modifying the Snap Shot Rule. The Authors through it was important to mention where the restriction preventing the Template Weapon from firing during Overwatch lies, within the Snap Shots Rule. One could try and argue that it is 'reminder' or 'redundant' text, but while that does happen from time to time it doesn't make 100% sense in this situation. If a Template Weapon using Wall of Death is not firing a Snap Shot, there is no reason to remind us what Snap Shots does. It also can not be redundant as the restriction wasn't 'in play' to begin with.

I can't even guess at what the Authors Intended with this Rule, thanks to that inclusion, so concluding that Wall of Death is "A," "B," or "C" appears to be problematic and premature.