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 insaniak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

It's not a matter of the rule applying again. It's still in effect.

You're making the same mistake as those who suggest that deep striking models should be able to assault if they disembarked from an Assault vehicle.

A restriction that is imposed by two different special rules doesn't go away if only one of those rules is removed. You have to cancel both rules for the restriction to no longer apply.

WoD allows the weapon to fire Overwatch even though it can't snap fire, but it doesn't change the fact that the shot is not a Snap Shot.

Invisibility only allows you to fire snap shots at the target.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

The higher BS would be fine, as Invisibility doesn't require BS1. Just Snap Shots. If you fire Snap Shots at BS2, they're still Snap Shots.

If WoD told you to ignore having to Snap Shot because of Overwatch, you'd still have to Snap Shot due to Invisibilty - that's basically what you're arguing, right? But that's not really what's going on.
*edit for clarification*An example of that would be a unit with Relentless shooting at an Invisible unit - they'd still have to Snap Shot.

Invisibility tells you to Snap Shot when shooting at invisible units.
Overwatch tells you to Snap Shot when shooting at any unit during Overwatch.
WoD tells you that instead of Snap Shot'ing during Overwatch, you roll a D3. It does not tell you to ignore what is written in Overwatch, it simply tells you to do something ELSE instead. It also does not tell you to make a shooting attack or anything of the like, so Snap Shot - which only affects those - doesn't matter.

According to your logic a Blast targetting another unit cannot hit an invisible unit, since you're again injecting your "but it has to be Snapshots" into the step where we determine how many hits were landed (by counting what is under the Blast template or by rolling a D3).

TLDR: There's a difference between "ignoring one restriction but not the other" and "doing something else instead".

JinxDragon wrote:
Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

It's not removing the restriction preventing it from firing snap shots. It's removing the restriction preventing it from firing overwatch despite not being able to fire snap shots

Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

nekooni wrote:


According to your logic a Blast targetting another unit cannot hit an invisible unit, since you're again injecting your "but it has to be Snapshots" into the step where we determine how many hits were landed (by counting what is under the Blast template or by rolling a D3)..

a blast is fired at a target unit. if the blast lands on a separate unit, it does not become the target unit. Invisibility specifies the unit must be the target, so a scattered blast can indeed wound an invisible unit

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

To stop a conflict? To stop confusion? GW can be pretty bad at doing both so I really couldn't say for sure.

The fact that the WoD rule points out that you are still unable to fire snap shots is all the RAW I need. as you know, RAI is a mystery in most scenarios worthy of a YMDC thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

other way around

It can not be to prevent a conflict, if Snap Shots are not being used at all there can not be a conflict within the Snap Shots Rule...
It can not be to prevent confusion, by addressing Snap Shots in this situation the Authors have created the confusion...

Incompetence is always a good thing to put on the top of the list though!

 jokerkd wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

To stop a conflict? To stop confusion? GW can be pretty bad at doing both so I really couldn't say for sure.

The fact that the WoD rule points out that you are still unable to fire snap shots is all the RAW I need. as you know, RAI is a mystery in most scenarios worthy of a YMDC thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

other way around

OK, maybe it's because I'm not a native English speaker, but how do you get that from this sentence?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

To me this line reads like this:

Template weapons can fire Overwatch (clarifying that this overrules Snap Shot rules). Instead of performing a regular shooting attack (which would be impossible due to Snap Shot) you automatically inflict D3 hits (and so on).

For what exact reason you have to Snap Shot during your Overwatch simply doesn't matter, otherwise that would have to be mentioned, wouldn't it?

What you guys are arguing is "Wall of Death says you cannot fire Snap Shots and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me". But Wall of Death tells you that you can do something INSTEAD and that still applies

Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

JinxDragon wrote:
Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

That is why I don't rule out the possibility that Wall of Death is talking about modifying the Snap Shot Rule. The Authors through it was important to mention where the restriction preventing the Template Weapon from firing during Overwatch lies, within the Snap Shots Rule. One could try and argue that it is 'reminder' or 'redundant' text, but while that does happen from time to time it doesn't make 100% sense in this situation. If a Template Weapon using Wall of Death is not firing a Snap Shot, there is no reason to remind us what Snap Shots does. It also can not be redundant as the restriction wasn't 'in play' to begin with.

I can't even guess at what the Authors Intended with this Rule, thanks to that inclusion, so concluding that Wall of Death is "A," "B," or "C" appears to be problematic and premature.

Yeah let's just modify the rules so you can win the argument... Brilliant.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Dozer Blades,
I never quoted the Wall of Death rule directly, so there is no way for me to have posted a modified version of this Rule....

Please inform me if this is not the actual Wall of Death Rule, as it is what was quoted here by another posted:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Should this be accurate, away from book but I was confident it was, we return to the fact this sub-Rule mentions Snap Shots when it talks about why the Template Weapon would not usually be able to fire Overwatch.

Unless you mean the Rule I did quote, the one that tells shots fired during Overwatch must be Snap Shots?

That's s what you're really saying though.

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

No. But there are more restrictions with Snap Shot which may cause the Wall of Death (Shooting) to not work.

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

No. But there are more restrictions with Snap Shot which may cause the Wall of Death (Shooting) to not work.

Really? "May"? While the rules literally say otherwise?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots

nekooni wrote:
Really? "May"? While the rules literally say otherwise?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots

From Snap Shots:

WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

nekooni wrote:
What you guys are arguing is "Wall of Death says you cannot fire Snap Shots and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me".

Not quite. What we're arguing is "Wall of Death isn't a Snap Shot and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me".

If WoD is something that happens instead of Snap Shooting, then that right there is your proof that it isn't a Snap Shot, and so can not happen against something that specifically requires Snap Shots.

Charistoph wrote:
WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

insaniak wrote:If WoD is something that happens instead of Snap Shooting, then that right there is your proof that it isn't a Snap Shot, and so can not happen against something that specifically requires Snap Shots.

That's a REALLY strange way of reading the Invisibility rule. It is not a "requirement" for the shooter, it simply tells you that the enemy targeting you has to Snap Shot. That's not the same thing as saying "No attack may be made that isn't a Snap Shot".

Your arguments are to interpret Invisibility in a way that I'd not even call "super-strict" since that's too tame: "If you do not Snap Shot you cannot hurt me" - and the other one is that while performing Overwatch, Snap Shot isn't Snap Shot in some cases, while the rules never state that they only work on a specific "type" of Snap Shot - which doesn't exist in the first place.
How you guys interpret Invisibility that strict while at the same time being that lax with how to use the WoD rule is beyond me.

But since this isn't going anywhere useful apparently: Please, continue without me.

nekooni wrote:
WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

No, it doesn't, because you can't snap shoot with templates.

WoD is a specific allowance to fire Overwatch despite not being able to snap fire.

That's a REALLY strange way of reading the Invisibility rule. It is not a "requirement" for the shooter, it simply tells you that the enemy targeting you has to Snap Shot.

How is that not a requirement for the shooter?

Your arguments are to interpret Invisibility in a way that I'd not even call "super-strict" since that's too tame: "If you do not Snap Shot you cannot hurt me"

Nope, that's not the argument.

Invisible models can potentially be hurt by things that don't snap shoot (like a scattering blast, for example)... you just can't fire at them (ie: target them with a weapon) unless you are firing snap shots.

- and the other one is that while performing Overwatch, Snap Shot isn't Snap Shot in some cases, while the rules never state that they only work on a specific "type" of Snap Shot - which doesn't exist in the first place.

Sorry, but I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

He seems to think that overwatch=snap shots. Anything shot during overwatch is a snap shot despite WoD stating that you can fire overwatch without it being a snap shot.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

It overrides the Snap Shooting condition during Overwatch not allowing a specific automatically hitting Weapon from firing.

However if it is still considered a Shooting Attack, it does not override Invisibility's Snap Shot condition. If it is not a Shooting Attack, then it ignores that connection, too.

OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

Isnaik, I'm glad you're willing to allow people to flame you, since it's obvious that the rule should work that way.

As to the rules themselves,

Can I fire Overwatch? Yes, but I will be doing it by inflicting D3 hits per template weapon I have.

Can I fire Snap Shots? No, but I'm inflicting D3 hits per WoD, so I don't care.

But don't you have to Snap Shoot at me!? Nah, I'm fine with dealing my D3 instead of making a ranged attack which I cannot make because I'm using template weapons.

FratHammer wrote:
OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

I also play armies that don't... And have never used Invisibility. So not really sure what your point is here.

I also pointed out earlier in the thread that this is a situation where I'm happy to ignore the RAW as it makes more sense to allow WoD to work here.

It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.

FratHammer wrote:
OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

Isnaik, I'm glad you're willing to allow people to flame you, since it's obvious that the rule should work that way.

I also play armies matching that description and, like insaniak, i would allow WoD against invisible units. Just like i allow ICs to add their mastery level to a BoP unit that they join. Just because RAW is silly and we're willing to house rule these things, doesn't change the RAW

As to the rules themselves,

Can I fire Overwatch? Yes, but I will be doing it by inflicting D3 hits per template weapon I have.

Can I fire Snap Shots? No, but I'm inflicting D3 hits per WoD, so I don't care.

But don't you have to Snap Shoot at me!? Nah, I'm fine with dealing my D3 instead of making a ranged attack which I cannot make because I'm using template weapons.

Where does it say that you're not making a ranged attack? A template attack is a ranged attack.
All you are told is not to measure the range

I play Eldar and I'm with Insaniak on this one.
Wall of Death allows a template weapon to be fired during Overwatch with a new method of generating hits. Nothing in the rule indicates that it is a snap shot. In fact the wording seems to indicate that it is NOT a snapshot, because it reiterates that templates cannot be snap fired. Because Invisible units cannot be fired at by anything but snap shots, I find myself siding with the "no wall of death against invisible units" decision.

Joker, if I generate automatic hits, where are those defined as ranged attacks?
By Overwatch? I cannot fire Overwatch. I am instead allowed to generate d3 hits, no template is used, I merely must possess a template weapon.

Bojazz, and I agree with isnaik when he says being charged is the correct time to light up those flame throwers. But I disagree that they are useless.

You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, it has no power to override any other Snap Shot restriction than Overwatch's. If it specifically addressed all Snap Shots, it would be fine, but automatically hitting Shooting Attacks cannot be fired as Snap Shots.