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I agree entirely Charistoph, I wasn't claiming permission to fire Overwatch against invisibility. I was just pointing out that Wall of Death is a shooting attack, in response to Frathammer's post asking where Wall of Death was stated as being a ranged attack, because he didn't think it counted as overwatch.

It's Overwatch, which I have expired permission to automatically deal wounds with. I don't see where your snap shot rule applies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess let me try again now that my brain is awake.

Am I allowed to fire Overwatch? Yes. Then generate hits.

Where does your snap shot rule apply?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your answer, I can only be targeted by snap shots.

My response, I am allowed to Overwatch even though I am not allowed to snap shoot. Says so right in WOD.

Can I snap shoot? No, can I Overwatch and generate d3 wounds, yes.

FratHammer, in order to generate WoD wounds, you must first be allowed to fire the weapon.

Can Template weapons fire Snap Shots? No.
Can Template weapons fire Overwatch? Yes, even though normally it cannot.

You have one rule saying yes, and one rule saying no. Therefore it is not allowed. Just like disembarking from a vehicle with the Assault Vehicle special rule does not allow you to ignore any other restrictions that prevent a unit from charging.

Another example of two restrictions, and only one being overridden:
- A Fire Prism that jinked last turn must snap fire.
- A Fire Prism that moved flat out must snap fire.
- A Crystal Targeting Matrix allows the Fire Prism to fire one weapon at full BS after moving flat out. This does not grant it permission to fire at full BS after jinking even if it moves flat out.

Similarly:

- Overwatching makes you snap fire
- Firing at an Invisible unit makes you snap fire
- Wall of Death allows template weapons to fire overwatch even though they can't snapfire. This does not allow them to ignore the snap firing restriction from Invisibility.


Two restrictions, only one being overridden.

Personally, I'd say roll off. It's a case of automatically hits under one rule, and cannot target under the other. Similar issue came up when my invisible Gk company master (only hit on 6) challenged Kharn (always hits on 2+). Wall of death is listed as an alternative to snap firing, so although I completely appreciate the argument against allowing it, I think that there is enough ambiguity in the language to defer to the roll off.

"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

FratHammer wrote:
"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

No, it's most certainly being considered. It's the proof that WoD can not be used against Invisibility, because it is not a snap shot.

The "can fire overwatch" that prefaces "even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots" is important there. It means the line you're quoting is in reference to them being able to fire overwatch. It doesn't allow them to ignore ALL sources of snap shooting requirements. Only those imposed by Overwatching. Other sources forcing snap shots (such as invisibility) are not negated. Just like in all the other scenarios we've mentioned (potms, crystal targeting matrix, etc), a permission to ignore a restriction from one source, does not give permission to ignore that restriction from all sources.

FratHammer wrote:
"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

If that was an actual quote from the rule, the word "normally" could indeed suggest that you are firing snap shots.

But the rule actually reads:

even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.

I guess I see permissions differently. In this case one overriding another.

Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can Overwatch regardless.
They deal d3 wounds.

Yall are arguing that
Declare charge.
Cannot snap fire.

I believe you're wrong.

And where does Wall of Death override the restriction for Invisibility to require the unit to fire Snap Shots? You've stated yourself in that post that Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot, so why are you able to use it?

FratHammer wrote:
I guess I see permissions differently. In this case one overriding another.

Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can Overwatch regardless.
They deal d3 wounds.

Yall are arguing that
Declare charge.
Cannot snap fire.

I believe you're wrong.

Not quite.

Here is the process we are presenting:
Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot normally snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can fire in Overwatch regardless with Wall of Death.
They attempt to fire Templates to automatically Hit with D3 Hits.
Invisibility Check occurs and forces a Snap Shot which denies automatically hitting weapons from being used.

If one permission to take an action in a specific scenario overrides all restrictions for that action, then that means I can shoot at an invisible zooming flyer using full ballistic skill after I've jinked and moved flat out so long as I have a crystal targeting matrix, right? My fire prisms just got better...

Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

And the reasoning behind that is...?

Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

Same thing as Marker Lights.

Pretty basic logic, really.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

Same thing as Marker Lights.

Pretty basic logic, really.

I only see the one for Overwatch. I do not see any notes for other Snap Shot conditions, much less Invisibility.

Markerlights specifically state Snap Shots in general, unlike Wall of Death's specific override. Not the best example to work with.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

How?

Nothing in the rule you just quoted states that it ignores the snap shot requirement for firing at an invisible target. All it does is allows the unit to fire Overwatch without being able to snap fire.

So it can fire Overwatch... but it is not snap firing. So the attack would be illegal against anything that requires the shooter to snap fire.

Invisiblity requires the unit to shoot apples at it.

Template weapons can't shoot apples.

Overwatch requires you to shoot apples.

Template weapons inflict D3 banana hits when firing Overwatch, instead of shooting Overwatch apples.

Banana hits still aren't apples.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Invisiblity requires the unit to shoot apples at it.

Template weapons can't shoot apples.

Overwatch requires you to shoot apples.

Template weapons inflict D3 banana hits when firing Overwatch, instead of shooting Overwatch apples.

Banana hits still aren't apples.

This made laugh....genuinely

Even more than vitae completely ignoring the whole thread

I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Seems like you understood the question just fine, but skipped over the discussion that came afterwards. Your post didn't address any of the arguments presented against WoD working against invisible units.

vitae_drinker wrote:
I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Not at all, but that's beside the point when you're still claiming Wall of Death's automatic (banana) hits works against an effect allowing only Snap Shots (apples) to be fired at the target unit.

Basically, regular Overwatch works against Invisibility just fine, because it's resolved as Snap Shots. Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Not sure what you're trying to say here... Overwatch is the only time WoD is used, and it isn't allowed to snap fire on Overwatch. WoD is very explicitly not a Snap Shot.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Not at all, but that's beside the point when you're still claiming Wall of Death's automatic (banana) hits works against an effect allowing only Snap Shots (apples) to be fired at the target unit.

Basically, regular Overwatch works against Invisibility just fine, because it's resolved as Snap Shots. Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules. Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

As it's written you can't, but it doesn't really make sense. If you see enough of the Invisible unit to fire snap shots at it, isn't that the time you really want to fill the area with flamer templates and a mortar barrage?

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

Except that PotMS works completely different to WoD. It doesn't even mention Snap Shots, it simply tells you (indirectly) to not Snap Shot for one specific reason for one weapon. And WoD doesn't specify what kind of "Snap Shot source" you override, you simply override Snap Shot.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

I'm sorry you felt it insulting, but that's exactly what you said:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

You see?

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules.

I don't think "specifically" means what you think it does. For it to specifically override the other rules, it would need to... well, specify those rules and say they're overridden.

But it doesn't.

Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

You certainly seem to be getting a little over-excited about a discussion on the rules of a game of plastic toy soldiers. There's no need to get wound up.

Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer. That said, a flamer can't target an invisible unit in the shooting phase, so based on that there is no reason why they should be able to in overwatch. There is no making clear sense either way. Hence the rule to roll off.