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 JamesY wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer.

Indeed. For that very reason, it makes no sense that blasts and templates are excluded from being able to snap fire.

This is just a corner that GW painted themselves into as a result of that exclusion.

Landdavi wrote:
I recently charged an invisibility unit into a unit of Eldar wraiths with d-sycthes. I was thinking he needed 6s to hit me until he picked up the dice to roll 5 D3 "D" hits. Oooops ---- I knew instantly, I had made a mistake or did I? The wall of death rule says you can fire overwatch even though they are templates. The invisibility blessing says the enemy can only fire snap shots. The wall of death is not a snap shot. How do you play this? Thanks.

I'm sure this debate will go on, but in my local meta, we play it the way you guys did. Templates can fire overwatch using the wall of death rules, which, I believe count as snap shots. The reason templates can fire wall of death when force to snap fire by other means, is it has to be in regard to the overwatch action.

insaniak wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Not sure what you're trying to say here... Overwatch is the only time WoD is used, and it isn't allowed to snap fire on Overwatch. WoD is very explicitly not a Snap Shot.

The only restriction lifted by Wall of Death is the inability for an automatically hitting weapon to fire in Overwatch, a Snap Shot condition.

Invisibility requires that you Snap Shot when firing at the unit. Wall of Death is an Attack that is fired and automatically hits. Snap Shot conditions normally prevent weapons that automatically hit from being fired.

I wasn't trying to counter Mr. Shine, but shore up what he was saying.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

Except that PotMS works completely different to WoD. It doesn't even mention Snap Shots, it simply tells you (indirectly) to not Snap Shot for one specific reason for one weapon. And WoD doesn't specify what kind of "Snap Shot source" you override, you simply override Snap Shot.

Actually it does for the case being presented, that of using permission in one case to override a restriction with another case. In this case, Power of the Machine Spirit does not provide Skyfire, nor anything resembling it, so using its permission to fire one weapon at full BS does not override the Hard To Hit's specific requirement of Skyfire to bypass.

Wall of Death can be used in Overwatch, but nothing is stated in it being able to be used in any other Snap Shot condition. So, Wall of Death against Invisible units will not work because it is not cleared to be fired in any Snap Shot conditions, even though it is trying to be used against them in Overwatch.

JamesY wrote:Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer. That said, a flamer can't target an invisible unit in the shooting phase, so based on that there is no reason why they should be able to in overwatch. There is no making clear sense either way. Hence the rule to roll off.

When 40K starts making sense, you will see this section of the forum die.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

I'm sorry you felt it insulting, but that's exactly what you said:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

You see?

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules.

I don't think "specifically" means what you think it does. For it to specifically override the other rules, it would need to... well, specify those rules and say they're overridden.

But it doesn't.

Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

You certainly seem to be getting a little over-excited about a discussion on the rules of a game of plastic toy soldiers. There's no need to get wound up.

Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes? Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch (overriding the requirement of Invisibility). And then it tells you to generate D3 hits instead.

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

Now stop spending so much time staring at your fruits and berries and start reading the rules.

Specific wording would need to address Invisibility directly... it is a far stretch to say it specifically over-writes Invisibility when it makes no mention of Invisibility.

I still entertain the idea that the Authors may have intended for the Template to be a Snap Shot, but not because there is something specifically stating so. I only find it very unusual for the Authors to inform us why Templates can not fire Overwatch, highlighting it is because they can not fire Snap Shots, while giving us permission to fire Template Weapons during Overwatch. That is circumstantial evidence at best, so without further proof from the Authors themselves I have only been able to flag it as an unusual curiosity and not as a Rule modifying clause....

vitae_drinker wrote:
Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes? Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch (overriding the requirement of Invisibility). And then it tells you to generate D3 hits instead.

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

Invisibility nor any general Snap Shots are not mentioned as being allowed by Wall of Death. All is mentioned is the ability to fire in Overwatch.

See? No mention of Invisibility. Nor any mention of any other Snap Shot conditions. All that it overrides is the Overwatch Snap Shot condition. Not moving while Heavy, not firing while Stunned, not shooting at a Hard To Hit target (if they could even Charge), much less shooting at an Invisible unit. All is mentioned is bypassing the Overwatch condition.

Does Assault Vehicle allow Space Marines to Charge out of a Drop Pod after Deep Striking? No. Assault Vehicle only overrides the restriction against Charging after disembarking, not Charging after coming from Deep Strike or Reserves.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Now stop spending so much time staring at your fruits and berries and start reading the rules.

Kettle, meet coffee pot.

I believe in these cases that the rules are meant to take the path that is the least complicated, normal and expected.

Is it normal for templates to fire overwatch even though it is normally reserved for snap shots? yes

Taken at face value, the least complicated representation of this rule is
invisibility = snapshots, overwatch = snapshots, templates are allowed to overwatch
So that is a yes for least complicated route

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

I guess what I am trying to say is - invisibility ignoring WoD is actually a made up rule not an actual written rule

vitae_drinker wrote:
Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes?

Yes.

Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch

Correct. So WoD fires Overwatch... but does not fire Snap Shots.

So, when you try to fire your WoD Overwatch at the invisible unit, are you firing Snap Shots?

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

WoD doesn't mention invisibility at all. So pretty much by definition can't be specifically over-riding it.

Addressing something specifically requires addressing that thing specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

You're making that sound a lot more complicated than it actually is.

The RAW breaks down like this -

1 - You can only fire at Invisible units with snap shots.
2 - Template weapons can't fire snap shots.

Done.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I believe in these cases that the rules are meant to take the path that is the least complicated, normal and expected.

Is it normal for templates to fire overwatch even though it is normally reserved for snap shots? yes

Taken at face value, the least complicated representation of this rule is
invisibility = snapshots, overwatch = snapshots, templates are allowed to overwatch
So that is a yes for least complicated route

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

So, No + Yes = Yes for a least complicated route? My child-self has a sore bum for trying that logic with my parents.

It's more complicated trying to get a rule that bypasses one specific condition to bypass another condition that is never addressed by a rule, just because those conditions share an effect.

To put it another way, Markerlights address Snap Shots, the second half of "condition=effect" you used above, i.e. Snap Shots, whether Overwatch, Invisibility, Heavy Weapons, etc. Wall of Death addresses the first half of "condition=effect", i.e. Overwatch, not the second half, i.e. Snap Shots. Overwatch and Invisibility are not the same, so Wall of Death does not address Invisibility.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I guess what I am trying to say is - invisibility ignoring WoD is actually a made up rule not an actual written rule

The problem is that people are saying that Invisibility ignores Wall of Death, and so allows Wall of Death to process. Invisibility does not ignore Wall of Death. Wall of Death does not ignore Invisibility.

 insaniak wrote:

The RAW breaks down like this -

1 - You can only fire at Invisible units with snap shots.
2 - Template weapons can't fire snap shots.

Done.

I think the RAW is a bit more long winded than that:

Template equipped unit wants to shoot at invisible unit.

Is it the shooting phase?

Yes - invis can only be fired at with snap shots, template can only fire snapshots so it is not allowed

Is it during overwatch?

Yes - Invisibility - "Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"
- under Resolve Overwatch - "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
- under Wall of Death - "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template
weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal
Strength and AP value."

So lets break it down:

WoD confirms that the template is 'firing' Overwatch at the 'charging unit'

Overwatch tells us to treat it like a normal shooting attack for all rules purposes.

Overwatch tells us only snap shots are allowed.

Invisibility tells us only snap shots are allowed.

WoD tells us - "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

SO THE BIG QUESTION - Does this statement allow it to fire at this point?

No, because it can't fire snap shots.

You're allowed to fire Overwatch generally, because Wall of Death says that you can even though you can't fire snap shots.

You're not allowed to fire Overwatch at an Invisible target specifically, because your Overwatch in this situation is not comprised of snap shots.

So you're saying there would need to be the phrase "Template weapons can fire at a unit affected by Invisibility during Overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots"

But....the BRB is unaware of the Invisibility rule since it is written on a card that is an extension of the rules.

And writing specifically on the Invisibilty card that WoD is allowed - seems odd that they would put it there?

It just seems out of place that the Inivisibility card would call out WoD specifically to address this issue.

Invisibility is in the BRB, though, with all the other generic Psychic Disciplines.

And the Invisibility card and its entry in the BRB don't mention WoD at all, so I'm not sure what you are talking about...

 chaosmarauder wrote:
So you're saying there would need to be the phrase "Template weapons can fire at a unit affected by Invisibility during Overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots"

That would work.

A less specific statement that allows WoD to be fired at targets that can only be fired at with snap shots would also do the job without having to reference Invisibility specifically.


WoD currently doesn't have any such statement. It just allows you to fire Overwatch without firing Snap Shots. So you're not firing Snap Shots, so can not fire at anything that requires you to fire Snap Shots, whether it's Overwatch or not.