Social Constructs and Change

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**Ouze**

Frazzled wrote:
I'm old, like I remember the last time Yosemite exploded kind of old. (snip) Go with the flow or fight it, it doesn't matter in 50 years.

There's a lot of truth in this, really. The older I get, the more I realize that all the causes I care about so passionately when I was young - none of it really mattered ultimately.

**Frazzled**

Except bacon. That is the eternal quest.

**kronk**

Ouze wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I'm old, like I remember the last time Yosemite exploded kind of old. (snip) Go with the flow or fight it, it doesn't matter in 50 years.

There's a lot of truth in this, really. The older I get, the more I realize that all the causes I care about so passionately when I was young - none of it really mattered ultimately.

I still care about seeing chicks naked.

Now it's just a specific chick.

**Ouze**

I will certainly stipulate I am just as passionate about seeing naked ladies as I was when I was young, so on this, there is consensus.

I meant political stuff.

**Tactical_Spam**

I like how this went from Social constructs to "I like them naked girl!"

**Ouze**

It was a very brief digression, I assure you.

**reds8n**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

The discovery of a small community in the Dominican Republic, where some males are born looking like girls and only grow penises at puberty, has led to the development of a blockbuster drug that has helped millions of people, writes Michael Mosley.
Johnny lives in a small town in the Dominican Republic where he, and others like him, are known as "Guevedoces", which effectively translates as "penis at twelve".
We came across Johnny when we were filming for a new BBC Two series Countdown to Life, which looks at how we develop in the womb and how those changes, normal and abnormal, impact us later in life.
Like the other Guevedoces, Johnny was brought up as a girl because he had no visible testes or penis and what appeared to be a vagina. It is only when he approached puberty that his penis grew and testicles descended.
Johnny, once known as Felicita, remembers going to school in a little red dress, though he says he was never happy doing girl things.

"I never liked to dress as a girl and when they bought me toys for girls I never bothered playing with them - when I saw a group of boys I would stop to play ball with them."
When he became obviously male he was taunted at school, and responded with his fists.
"They used to say I was a devil, nasty things, bad words and I had no choice but to fight them because they were crossing the line."
We also filmed with Carla, who at the age of seven is on the brink of changing into Carlos. His mother has seen the change coming for quite a while.
"When she turned five I noticed that whenever she saw one of her male friends she wanted to fight with him. Her muscles and chest began growing. You could see she was going to be a boy. I love her however she is. Girl or boy, it makes no difference."

So why does it happen? Well, one of the first people to study this unusual condition was Dr Julianne Imperato-McGinley, from Cornell Medical College in New York. In the 1970s she made her way to this remote part of the Dominican Republic, drawn by extraordinary reports of girls turning into boys.
When she got there she found the rumours were true. She did lots of studies on the Guevedoces (including what must have been rather painful biopsies of their testicles) before finally unravelling the mystery of what was going on.
When you are conceived you normally have a pair of X chromosomes if you are to become a girl and a set of XY chromosomes if you are destined to be male.
For the first weeks of life in womb you are neither, though in both sexes nipples start to grow.
Then, around eight weeks after conception, the sex hormones kick in. If you're genetically male the Y chromosome instructs your gonads to become testicles and sends testosterone to a structure called the tubercle, where it is converted into a more potent hormone called dihydro-testosterone This in turn transforms the tubercle into a penis. If you're female and you don't make dihydro-testosterone then your tubercle becomes a clitoris.

When Imperato-McGinley investigated the Guevedoces she discovered the reason they don't have male genitalia when they are born is because they are deficient in an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase, which normally converts testosterone into dihydro-testosterone.
This deficiency seems to be a genetic condition, quite common in this part of the Dominican Republic, but vanishingly rare elsewhere. So the boys, despite having an XY chromosome, appear female when they are born. At puberty, like other boys, they get a second surge of testosterone. This time the body does respond and they sprout muscles, testes and a penis.
Imperato-McGinley's thorough medical investigations showed that in most cases their new, male equipment seems to work fine and that most Guevedoces live out their lives as men, though some go through an operation and remain female.
Another thing that Imperato-McGinley discovered, which would have profound implications for many men around the world, was that the Guevedoces tend to have small prostates.
This observation, made in 1974, was picked up by Roy Vagelos, head of research at the multinational pharmaceutical giant, Merck. He thought this was extremely interesting and set in progress research which led to the development of what has become a best-selling drug, finasteride, which blocks the action of 5-alpha-reductase, mimicking the lack of dihydro-testosterone seen in the Guevedoces.
My wife, who is a GP, routinely prescribes finasteride as it is an effective way to treat benign enlargement of the prostate, a real curse for many men as they get older. Finasteride is also used to treat male pattern baldness.
A final interesting observation that Imperato-McGinley made was that these boys, despite being brought up as girls, almost all showed strong heterosexual preferences. She concluded in her seminal paper that hormones in the womb matter more than rearing when it comes to your sexual orientation.
This is still a controversial topic and one I explore later in the film when I meet Mati, who decided from the earliest age that though "he" looked like a boy, Mati was really a girl.
As for Johnny, since he developed male genitalia he has had a number of short term girlfriends, but he is still looking for love. "I'd like to get married and have children, a partner who will stand by me through good and bad," he sighs wistfully.

**Ashiraya**

Wow. This is real? Interesting.

**Sigvatr**

The wonders of a small gene-pool

**Asherian Command**

Ashiraya wrote:
Wow. This is real? Interesting.

My thoughts exactly.

Dang that is fascinating.

So I wonder what the social construct of that community would of been like for the past few hundred years.

**Swastakowey**

It effects 1 in 90 men (in that community), the wikipedia says that they assume a male role once they are found out to have this condition. Unfortunately due to the physical issues that come with the disorder they struggle later one when it comes to finding a mate etc. Really they are mistakenly raised a female despite being a male and then when it happens they finally get to be male.

**Asherian Command**

Swastakowey wrote:
It effects 1 in 90 men (in that community), the wikipedia says that they assume a male role once they are found out to have this condition. Unfortunately due to the physical issues that come with the disorder they struggle later one when it comes to finding a mate etc. Really they are mistakenly raised a female despite being a male and then when it happens they finally get to be male.

Fascinating still. From that we can see some problems.

**Relapse**

d-usa wrote:
How did this thread devolve to "fat people don't turn me on"?

It is about Social Constructs and "Change". Guess it changed to that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like how this went from Social constructs to "I like them naked girl!"

See above.

**Tactical_Spam**

Relapse wrote:
d-usa wrote:
How did this thread devolve to "fat people don't turn me on"?

It is about Social Constructs and "Change". Guess it changed to that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like how this went from Social constructs to "I like them naked girl!"

See above.

Was that really necessary? Was it really?

**Peregrine**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
I don't really understand why it requires someone to show their junk to be a man. No wonder we have issues

I have no idea how you could possibly get that out of what I wrote. Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you deliberately pretending to misunderstand?

**Tactical_Spam**

Peregrine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
I don't really understand why it requires someone to show their junk to be a man. No wonder we have issues

I have no idea how you could possibly get that out of what I wrote. Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you deliberately pretending to misunderstand?

Maybe you should work on getting your point across

**Peregrine**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Maybe you should work on getting your point across

Everyone but you understood it just fine.

**Asherian Command**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
I don't really understand why it requires someone to show their junk to be a man. No wonder we have issues

I have no idea how you could possibly get that out of what I wrote. Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you deliberately pretending to misunderstand?

Maybe you should work on getting your point across

Please do not resort to insults please.

I am not a moderator, but come on. We are adults here. (I hope)

**Tactical_Spam**

Peregrine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Maybe you should work on getting your point across

Everyone but you understood it just fine.

Or did they? I don't ever recall having to prove my macho (macho) manliness to prove I was a man. I feel sorry for anyone who has to grow up in that toxic environment.

**Peregrine**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or did they? I don't ever recall having to prove my macho (macho) manliness to prove I was a man. I feel sorry for anyone who has to grow up in that toxic environment.

Sigh. Do you really not understand the difference between "this is a way that 'male' and 'man' can have different meanings in English" and "every male person experiences this"?

**Tactical_Spam**

Peregrine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or did they? I don't ever recall having to prove my macho (macho) manliness to prove I was a man. I feel sorry for anyone who has to grow up in that toxic environment.

Sigh. Do you really not understand the difference between "this is a way that 'male' and 'man' can have different meanings in English" and "every male person experiences this"?

And you went back to confusing again

**d-usa**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or did they? I don't ever recall having to prove my macho (macho) manliness to prove I was a man. I feel sorry for anyone who has to grow up in that toxic environment.

Sigh. Do you really not understand the difference between "this is a way that 'male' and 'man' can have different meanings in English" and "every male person experiences this"?

And you went back to confusing again

If you are too confused to understand what is going on in this thread, then it might be better to abstain from the discussion instead of spamming it with one sentence posts that don't do anything to actually contribute to the discussion.

Even plainly asking for clarifications is better than this "I don't understand what you said, so I'm gonna take it as an insult" feeling I'm getting from a lot of your posts.

We had some interesting news today, but for the most part it almost feels like this discussion is heading towards 'locked thread' territory if this back and forth continues.

**LordofHats**

Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change. We've spent all our time reiterating that biology != gender and that the biology of sex is not the binary thing a lot of people think it is. It's hard to advocate change when significant portions of the audience don't listen long enough for you to get to that point.

**d-usa**

LordofHats wrote:
Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change.

Very true. And I'm at fault for that because I really haven't contributed on that portion either. I want to and I have pretty strong feelings about that subject, but I also have a pretty defeatist attitude about even trying to talk about it.

**Asherian Command**

LordofHats wrote:
Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change. We've spent all our time reiterating that biology != gender and that the biology of sex is not the binary thing a lot of people think it is. It's hard to advocate change when significant portions of the audience don't listen long enough for you to get to that point.

They will change with time.

Though I don't know what they will become.

**Buttery Commissar**

LordofHats wrote:
Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change. We've spent all our time reiterating that biology != gender and that the biology of sex is not the binary thing a lot of people think it is. It's hard to advocate change when significant portions of the audience don't listen long enough for you to get to that point.

I think that gender roles are shifting. And I dare mention this… B word.. Bronies.

Now before you light your torches, consider that there is a sizeable, measurable amount of young men that are redefining what they are. What is acceptable amongst them and their friends. They are building communities, and standing together over a great many social issues.
I personally know a lot of them, and work with several hundred on a regular basis as part of ym job. The vast majority of the time, the horse show is purely an excuse to get together. They don’t then stand around talking about it. It symbolises their freedom to express, it is a symbol of solidarity far more than it is a symbol that “I like horses”. Nobody likes horses that much. The horse is a flag so much as a rainbow is.

They are one of the most openly accepting, and protective group I’ve encountered. I’ve not seen that level acceptance of openly being any gender or sexual minority outside of the goth/alt subculture.
If you strip away the pastel horses, you have an exceptionally interesting sign of the times.

I know this is going to devolve into something else entirely, and how icky/wrong/whatever people think that is, but I figure one person might read it and understand what I’m flashing my torch at.

**LordofHats**

Buttery Commissar wrote:
And I dare mention this… B word.. Bronies.

You monster! *lights torch*

**Buttery Commissar**

I could have been eating a sandwich instead of typing that, and now I wish I had.

Begone lest I mention the F word instead.

That group is a lot less earnestly accepting than bronies though.

**LordofHats**

I'm just joking with you

I get what you're saying but I think it kind of throws back to the point Frazzled made earlier; that these things just change and caring about them now on an individual level may well be irrelevant X years from now. It's not like the makers of MLPFIM set out to make a show that would become insanely popular with boys. It just happened. Bronies weren't the result of anything purposeful. They sprung up spontaneously and ran from there.

**Buttery Commissar**

Oh, I got that.

Hence the F word. My Dad calls them "fuzzies" and I think that's marvellous.

Six years? I think? And an awful lot of the brony groups have moved on from the cartoon, and I see it more as a beacon for the disaffected. Whether they realise or not.
It's comparable as a parallel to gaming in some ways. Everyone will have their favoured system, and seek out other people. They realise that there's a predilection for certain types to gravitate towards those communities, and end up banding together.
In this case, the catalyst is horse shaped, but it's undeniably changed into something far more about expression of self
In the end, Bronies may be fleeting, but with tens of thousands of people creating bridges in a way they hadn't expected to, there will be a residual effect.

As an aside, the creators set out to create something entertaining and tolerable to parents, which I can see, much like Rugrats was a thinly veiled social commentary at times.