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Hi all,

I've been told that you cannot re roll ones through having an overlord in a Reclamation legion with in 12" if you have the +1/+2 bonus from a Cryptek and/or Decurion as dice rolls of '1' are changed to '2' or '3' and so cannot be re rolled. ( Page 11 of the rule book explains how to modify dice rolls )

Seems strange to be and at best looks like RAW being enforced over the obvious intention of RAI.

What do people generally play under these circumstances ?

Oaktreegamer wrote:
Seems strange to be and at best looks like RAW being enforced over the obvious intention of RAI.

What do people generally play under these circumstances ?

Huh. I've never thought of that.
I've only ever seen the RAI being used (i.e. a roll of "1", before modifiers, getting rerolled).

Just remember that the same logic applied to Reanimation could also be applied to Preferred Enemy should there be any bonuses applied to the dice roll.

The best roll RP can reach is 4+. Crypteks only add a 'layer' of protection in Decurion armies - if you are hit by an insta-kill attack, they'll keep the 4+, instead of downing to 5+.

You can always re-roll the 1s to the Reclamation Legion models if they're within 12" of the Overlord.

Always? I dunno. It's a one before modifier. Then the rule of no re rolls of one kicks in. Then the modifier to two, but the possibility of a reroll has passed so no re roll. Or, this is how we make our necron player play at least. They don't need anything else. Take away everything we can from them with actual logic and explanation.

It's saying that you can never modify a roll of one, meaning that a save of 1 always fails, even if you have modifiers that would potentially allow a pass. For example, if I am in 4+ cover and have the stealth and shrouded special rule, I technically get +3 to my cover save, which would indicate that I have a 1+
cover save (mathematically). But the rule says that this is not ok. You have to fail on a 1. Your RP:

1) is not a save and this is completely unaffected by this rule

2) did fail. That's ok. That's why you get a re-roll. There's nothing saying that you can't re-roll a failed save or a 1 result on a die

There seems to be a fair bit of talking past each other here. The OP wasn't asking about whether you can get a 1+ reanimation protocol, nor whether you can get a 3+ reanimation protocol.

A special rule allows you to re-roll 1s.
A special rule gives you +1 to rolls*.

The question the OP asked is whether you can re-roll the dice should it land on a 1. After all, the "1" is modified to "2" by the +1, and so is no longer a "1".

I'd not seen this reasoning applied before. However, if your opponents do apply this logic then they should do so consistently. An Instant Death or other negative modifier reduces your roll to a 1? That would trigger the re-roll if people are being consistent. Similarly, a positive modifier to hit or wound would prevent Preferred Enemy from kicking in.

I've heard of demons with a 2+ invulnerable save, and using their Mark of Tzeentch to re-roll 1s. If the above reasoning applies, this means that the users of these units couldn't re-roll 1s. Since players do re-roll 1s, then they should surely be fine with Necrons doing the same.


*Well, multiple special rules give +1. For simplicity let's just stick with the one.

Mallich wrote:
There seems to be a fair bit of talking past each other here. The OP wasn't asking about whether you can get a 1+ reanimation protocol, nor whether you can get a 3+ reanimation protocol.

A special rule allows you to re-roll 1s.
A special rule gives you +1 to rolls*.

The question the OP asked is whether you can re-roll the dice should it land on a 1. After all, the "1" is modified to "2" by the +1, and so is no longer a "1".

I'd not seen this reasoning applied before. However, if your opponents do apply this logic then they should do so consistently. An Instant Death or other negative modifier reduces your roll to a 1? That would trigger the re-roll if people are being consistent. Similarly, a positive modifier to hit or wound would prevent Preferred Enemy from kicking in.

I've heard of demons with a 2+ invulnerable save, and using their Mark of Tzeentch to re-roll 1s. If the above reasoning applies, this means that the users of these units couldn't re-roll 1s. Since players do re-roll 1s, then they should surely be fine with Necrons doing the same.


*Well, multiple special rules give +1. For simplicity let's just stick with the one.

Negative. His is different than a rule allowing re rolls of one. His rule states rolls of one can't be re rolled but 2 and 3 can. He is saying because the one is given a +1 or +2 and so the result of the 1 is 2 or 3 after modifiers it's allowed. We are saying no, the one no re roll kicks in before modifiers. So the dumb necrons stay down. Never to tarnish the soil again with their useless metal

Any rule that adds to the *roll* gets a new *result*

You're allowed to re-roll a *roll* of one, and no modifiers to the *result* of that that roll change that fact.

In other words, you can always re-roll a physical roll of 1 if you have a rule that says you can.

If people were to apply the logic I'm seeing here, that the roll isn't counted as complete until after modifiers to the roll are applied... so many rules in this game would break. Most importantly, certain models would become invulnerable as they avoid the "1 always fails" rule for saves.

Thing is is don't think there are actually any examples where implying the 'modify before the chance to reroll' in same vain as the necron example exists in 40k. I can't think of any, preferred enemy would be a good one but where can you obtain +1 to hit or wound ?

I guess if preferred enemy allowed re rolls against armour penetration rolls then that would be one, AP 1/2 and open topped would disallow the preferred enemy re-roll. However this point is moot.

A natural 1 is always a failure in the rule book would help settle it no end.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I think I may of resolved this issue.

If by adding +1 or +2 to the roll of 1 changes this to a 3 or 4 thus negating the re-roll and condemning the Necron to death then to be consistent, the +1 or +2 modifier must also be added to all other dice in the pool this means 2's would be 3's or 4's and 3's would be 4's or 5's etc. This would mean passing a whole lot more reanimation on rolls, remember it can never be better then a 4+ but my following the initial logic that it changes the dice roll not the required saving roll.

This is obviously not correct, Necrons would never die.

The changes from Cryptek and Decurion must just change the required save not alter the actual number on the dice otherwise it breaks reanimation protocols completely.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Always? I dunno. It's a one before modifier. Then the rule of no re rolls of one kicks in. Then the modifier to two, but the possibility of a reroll has passed so no re roll. Or, this is how we make our necron player play at least. They don't need anything else. Take away everything we can from them with actual logic and explanation.

if you are saying that if a necron player rolls a 1 on RP doesn't get a re-roll because of the +1 from decurion formation I hope you are letting them pass RP on a roll of a 2+ if they have a cryptek in the unit since it is the same wording. Same logic is applied.

Oberron wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Always? I dunno. It's a one before modifier. Then the rule of no re rolls of one kicks in. Then the modifier to two, but the possibility of a reroll has passed so no re roll. Or, this is how we make our necron player play at least. They don't need anything else. Take away everything we can from them with actual logic and explanation.

if you are saying that if a necron player rolls a 1 on RP doesn't get a re-roll because of the +1 from decurion formation I hope you are letting them pass RP on a roll of a 2+ if they have a cryptek in the unit since it is the same wording. Same logic is applied.

Nah, different rule different process in our group

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Oberron wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Always? I dunno. It's a one before modifier. Then the rule of no re rolls of one kicks in. Then the modifier to two, but the possibility of a reroll has passed so no re roll. Or, this is how we make our necron player play at least. They don't need anything else. Take away everything we can from them with actual logic and explanation.

if you are saying that if a necron player rolls a 1 on RP doesn't get a re-roll because of the +1 from decurion formation I hope you are letting them pass RP on a roll of a 2+ if they have a cryptek in the unit since it is the same wording. Same logic is applied.

Nah, different rule different process in our group

Could you explain what your group does then? Curious.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Mallich wrote:
There seems to be a fair bit of talking past each other here. The OP wasn't asking about whether you can get a 1+ reanimation protocol, nor whether you can get a 3+ reanimation protocol.

A special rule allows you to re-roll 1s.
A special rule gives you +1 to rolls*.

The question the OP asked is whether you can re-roll the dice should it land on a 1. After all, the "1" is modified to "2" by the +1, and so is no longer a "1".

I'd not seen this reasoning applied before. However, if your opponents do apply this logic then they should do so consistently. An Instant Death or other negative modifier reduces your roll to a 1? That would trigger the re-roll if people are being consistent. Similarly, a positive modifier to hit or wound would prevent Preferred Enemy from kicking in.

I've heard of demons with a 2+ invulnerable save, and using their Mark of Tzeentch to re-roll 1s. If the above reasoning applies, this means that the users of these units couldn't re-roll 1s. Since players do re-roll 1s, then they should surely be fine with Necrons doing the same.


*Well, multiple special rules give +1. For simplicity let's just stick with the one.

Negative. His is different than a rule allowing re rolls of one. His rule states rolls of one can't be re rolled but 2 and 3 can. He is saying because the one is given a +1 or +2 and so the result of the 1 is 2 or 3 after modifiers it's allowed. We are saying no, the one no re roll kicks in before modifiers. So the dumb necrons stay down. Never to tarnish the soil again with their useless metal

What? No one is saying what you are saying. You either allow the necron player to reroll 1s before modifiers, or you apply the modifiers before checking if he rolled a 4+ or a 1 (thus allowing him to pass reanimation on a 2+ *roll*).

Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or ‘the roll’)
- Modifying Dice Rolls

This informs us that the worlds 'the roll,' and thus variations such as 'a roll,' are directly related to the number rolled on the dice before modifications.
Re-Roll of 1 triggers before any modifications are applied, as the subject matter is 'the roll' and not 'the result.'

Oberron wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Oberron wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Always? I dunno. It's a one before modifier. Then the rule of no re rolls of one kicks in. Then the modifier to two, but the possibility of a reroll has passed so no re roll. Or, this is how we make our necron player play at least. They don't need anything else. Take away everything we can from them with actual logic and explanation.

if you are saying that if a necron player rolls a 1 on RP doesn't get a re-roll because of the +1 from decurion formation I hope you are letting them pass RP on a roll of a 2+ if they have a cryptek in the unit since it is the same wording. Same logic is applied.

Nah, different rule different process in our group

Could you explain what your group does then? Curious.

Need necrons as hard as possible due to not liking our necron player very much. He is currently attempting to sell them in hopes of getting eldar, to which if he is successful we will have to nerd them. Probably use itc eldar rules but even worse

So...your all for nerfing any codex whatsoever all to spite one player...? Why not just ban the guy, instead of screwing over every faction X that walks into your store? What if he started csm, you gonna nerf them to just to force this guy to lose in hopes he quits?...way to keep the spirit of the games guys...

Thanks, JinxDragon. Glad that's resolved.

Overlordweasel,
What Pain4Pleasures' group chooses to do has no baring on a Rule debate here at all, no point in trying to 'shame' them for their behavior.