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Made in dk
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Denmark.

There's really no questions here - Chaos Marines in particular are the main bad guys to the entire series, as you know, that's not up for the debate, but am I the only one thinking that GW has resigned that role rather heavily the last few years?

It seems like Chaos Marines, as a faction, are described as petty pirates for the most part, not unlike Dark Eldar, and are given the same amount of focus. The big, ongoing wars are the Baal campaign against the Tyranids, the Damocles Crusade against Tau, and that large battle the Ultramarines are fighting against the Necrons. Also Sanctus Reach and the Red Waagh... But where's the Chaos Marines in all of this? Sure, there's the Crimson Slaughter, but they are somehow not given the focus that the other factions have, and I think I know why.

Chaos, as of right now, haven't got the actual imaginary military strength that the other factions have. What I mean by that is, that you can easily imagine how a Hive Fleet could eat a Sub-sector, or how a WAAAGH could smash open several systems with impunity, but a Chaos Fleet? That's small time. It's a bunch of disorganized anarchists who can only get their gak together long enough as to fight a small war over one system, really, and for them to succeed, they have to call in the Warp, which in turn gives over the role of "big bad" to Daemons, who are certainly up there, but shouldn't have that dramatic role, when the Chaos Marines are in focus - The Marines themselves are more significant.

If CSM must get their title of Villians back, several things need to happen. Their rules should be taken through the motions and put up to speed (preferably something that makes them work differently than any other faction, to potray how much of a menace they are on the battlefield - Raw buffs might not be needed), and new models, for starters. It's saying something that the big bads have one of the oldest model ranges of all the current factions!

Personally, I'd love it if GW allowed the Chaos Marines to get a foothold of the Materium - Succesful campaigns could lead to them taking several systems and opening them up to the warp, like the Eye of Terror, making them uncounqerable to the Imperium, and giving them a base to further destroy the Imperium with. Within these communities, you could have a lot of fun creating your own fluff, showing how your Marines govern their own little empires, to further emphazise their differences from the Loyalists. It also presents itself as more of a threat than a random fleet of Chaos Marines poppin' up, because when you know that they aren't in it to conquer, you can essentially just evacuate the premises and wait for the Warband to devolve into infighting.

What do you hope for the Chaos Marines in the future?
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

A big shiny hotshot round to the face for one

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Chaos as a whole are marketed as the main villains- but chaos space marines are a very small element- only what, a few million at most in a whole galaxy? But when you add in renegades, cultists, traitors, daemons, beastmen even- then you have a substantial threat. This is why i am glad the latest codex at least allowed cultists as troops; hopefully the next one will expand on these and even have a ln hq for them as they really should be the dominant part of chaos armies. Fluffwise, a chaos army really should be:
Hq: rebel commander or psycher
Elite: maybe one unit of csm as a band of raiders who have instigated this uprising against the imperium; summoned daemons
Troops: cultists or rebel guardsmen
Fast attack: new unit needed!
Heavy: captured imperial vehicles


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 The Wise Dane wrote:


What do you hope for the Chaos Marines in the future?


Complete reboot.

New units, new models, Legion Tactics, Kickass Formations: the whole nine yards.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Tailessine wrote:
Chaos as a whole are marketed as the main villains- but chaos space marines are a very small element- only what, a few million at most in a whole galaxy? But when you add in renegades, cultists, traitors, daemons, beastmen even- then you have a substantial threat. This is why i am glad the latest codex at least allowed cultists as troops; hopefully the next one will expand on these and even have a ln hq for them as they really should be the dominant part of chaos armies. Fluffwise, a chaos army really should be:
Hq: rebel commander or psycher
Elite: maybe one unit of csm as a band of raiders who have instigated this uprising against the imperium; summoned daemons
Troops: cultists or rebel guardsmen
Fast attack: new unit needed!
Heavy: captured imperial vehicles




So basically FW chaos lists?

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Tailessine wrote:
Chaos as a whole are marketed as the main villains- but chaos space marines are a very small element- only what, a few million at most in a whole galaxy? But when you add in renegades, cultists, traitors, daemons, beastmen even- then you have a substantial threat. This is why i am glad the latest codex at least allowed cultists as troops; hopefully the next one will expand on these and even have a ln hq for them as they really should be the dominant part of chaos armies. Fluffwise, a chaos army really should be:
Hq: rebel commander or psycher
Elite: maybe one unit of csm as a band of raiders who have instigated this uprising against the imperium; summoned daemons
Troops: cultists or rebel guardsmen
Fast attack: new unit needed!
Heavy: captured imperial vehicles




Urgh, no way. If I wanted to play with guardsmen and imperial vehicles, I'd play Guard in the first place.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

I think there is an error in how people preceive the 40k setting. The truth is, the Imperium of Man is the main villain. Chaos is fighting for survival, as the Imperial Truth would have ended them if it had caught on. Traitor Marines simply had an issue with management. Orks just want to live and let die. Nids are hungry. Eldar just want to be left alone. Tau are trying to bring peace to the universe.

Look at how the Imperium treats its own citizens, and tell me that's not evil.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

There are no heroes in 40k - everyone is a villain to a lesser or greater degree.

 
   
Made in nl
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe





Amsterdam

My hopes for the future is they break out of the eye of terror stronger and more angry then ever and start to conquer big parts of the universe.

How did they manage that with such small numbers you ask?
There are several solutions for this problem.
A cultist with a very strong connection to the warp (new HQ) started to experiment with fusing Daemon souls with dead bodies. These experiments had a horrible effect on their sanity and began to show a lot of mutations. The weirdest part about these new abominations was that whenever they killed someone they seemed to inspire daemons to do exactly the same and a Daemon soul would harvest the body for their own. This resulted in a rapid growth in the chaos ranks and army strenght. The speed time flows i nthe eye is very diffrent then from the normal universe 1000 years could have gone by in just 5 mins of normal time. So over time the numbers of chaos forces exploded.

I just need to think of a good explanation for the huge amount of chaos to join forces and unleash a bigger crusade on the universe then there has ever been. But i wil get back to you when i think of soemthing

As for changes in rules and minatures. A cultist HQ would be very cool indeed and ofc new models that are really for chaos and are unique. Not just a copy of some existing model with some spikes thrown on.

Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.

: 6000
: 2000  
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






The Dog-house

Experiment 626 wrote:
There are no heroes in 40k - everyone is a villain to a lesser or greater degree.


Except for the Salamanders. In the grimdarkness of the 41st millenia, there is only TFG's

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block






I think the Black Legion is quite a threat, because the other zenos races really aren't out to destroy the Imperium. The nids, orks, eldar, etc are just random killing machines or else fighting over their piece of the pie. The Black Legion has a plan to cut out the heart of the Imperium and with all the other random stuff the imperium is defending against they can possibly do it.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The IoM is the biggest villain to me.
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Christchurch, NZ

GW is lazy when it comes to CSM. I don't know why, they're always well-represented in the polls here, and everyone who plays has been crying out for Legion rules to reflect how these elite super-soldiers who almost burnt down the Imperium would actually fight. But no. Instead we get cruddy marks, a whole lot of "you guys are Marines, but worse!" and old, old wargear. It's not that I want them to have all the new shiny that SM has developed over the years. However, there should be some kind of fluffy equivalent for the stuff that outright cripples us. Our best anti-Termi weapon is still a Plasma Gun, when was the last time you saw anyone take that over Grav? And our Land Raiders somehow being 2 men smaller than their Land Raiders is nonsense.

I do enjoy Cultists being available now, and I hope they build on that in future. Worthless peons manning artillery and clearing minefields with their bodies is cool. Who knows, maybe a Dark Apostle might actually function sometime?

But anyway, the rules thing has been done to death. The fluff is just as dire. We are a bunch of space pirates nibbling away at the edges, or we're infighting in the Eye of Terror because "hurr durr violent psychotic morons in Power Armour". Occasionally we rustle up enough sense to take out the odd planet or shaft the occasional Xenos. But there aren't any grand strongholds where Commanders fear to dispatch forces. Barring the Eye, there are no swathes of space that no Imperial vessel can be near for fear of being ravaged by the dark Warp energy raging through the sector, helped along with prayer and sacrifice.

For gods' sake, the "kingpin" Abaddon himself is bashing his head against Cadia for the umpteenth time and getting nowhere. Cadia. And I get that Cadians and Friends are amazeballs, but it would be great if they were only stopping some of the flow, while vessels broke through the lines unmolested and went-a-ravaging. Or if other stable gateways were emerging elsewhere...

But nah. Much easier to copy-paste and add in a quick yarn about the new shoddy dinosaur monsters. Yeah. It does make me wonder if they do want us to exist as whipping boys to make the IoM dudes feel better...



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 23:00:52


CSM/Daemon Party

The Spiky Grot Legion

The Heavily-Ignored Pedro and Friends


In the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, there are no indicators. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Chaos Marines exist solely for awesome art pieces I think at this point. They might as well roll CSM as a single stand alone chapter in the main SM codex and just sell conversion kits full of spikes.

Chaos Daemons are at least fairly well represented if still really limited options and some way bad models scattered about.
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





GW made the concious decision to turn CSM into saturday morning cartoon villians long ago. That's how they want little Timmy to perceive them, and as such, that's what they mean to them.

And a saturday morning cartoon villian merely exists to look scary, give the heroes (and their spiritual lieges) a non-challenge (because everybody knows the heroes are going to win) just to get smacked in the face and run into hiding while screaming "i'll be baaaaack!".

Current CSM status in a nutshell.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Korinov wrote:
GW made the concious decision to turn CSM into saturday morning cartoon villians long ago. That's how they want little Timmy to perceive them, and as such, that's what they mean to them.

And a saturday morning cartoon villian merely exists to look scary, give the heroes (and their spiritual lieges) a non-challenge (because everybody knows the heroes are going to win) just to get smacked in the face and run into hiding while screaming "i'll be baaaaack!".

Current CSM status in a nutshell.


I dunno man. Cartoon villains at least had awesome looking figures and play-sets, The Techno Drome, Snake Mountain and the Terror Drome were badass. CSM models are mostly terrible outside FW and 3rd party and CSM doesnt get unique fortifications anymore.
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

Deadza wrote:
 Korinov wrote:
GW made the concious decision to turn CSM into saturday morning cartoon villians long ago. That's how they want little Timmy to perceive them, and as such, that's what they mean to them.

And a saturday morning cartoon villian merely exists to look scary, give the heroes (and their spiritual lieges) a non-challenge (because everybody knows the heroes are going to win) just to get smacked in the face and run into hiding while screaming "i'll be baaaaack!".

Current CSM status in a nutshell.


I dunno man. Cartoon villains at least had awesome looking figures and play-sets, The Techno Drome, Snake Mountain and the Terror Drome were badass. CSM models are mostly terrible outside FW and 3rd party and CSM doesnt get unique fortifications that doesn't cost your darn house anymore.


Fixed it for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 23:37:35


   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc




Kansas, USA

CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.

This means advancing the story... and we all saw how well end times worked out. So it's probably not gonna happen. That being said, if they are making a story advancement in 8th, it may be why CSM is getting shafted so hard on getting a new codex. Waiting till story is advanced to make new fluff related to it correct. But, this means GW is being competent and having a well thought out plan... and I believe in magical Bigfoot Aliens from Atlantis more than a smart GW.

"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.

That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn  
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Christchurch, NZ

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.


I get that, but they don't all have to be stuck on Cadia getting blown to bits by artillery. Instead, some ships (one with Abaddon aboard) could be getting past and ravaging systems behind Cadia, despite the best efforts of the Imperial Blockade. Not enough to roll all the way to Terra, but enough to have everyone going "Oh feth, is this Heresy 2.0?".

As opposed to what we currently have, which is the Black Legion hunkering down in the Cadian wasteland while being urinated on from all directions. While the playerbase goes "lol FailBaddon"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 00:02:21


CSM/Daemon Party

The Spiky Grot Legion

The Heavily-Ignored Pedro and Friends


In the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium, there are no indicators. 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Deadza wrote:
 Korinov wrote:
GW made the concious decision to turn CSM into saturday morning cartoon villians long ago. That's how they want little Timmy to perceive them, and as such, that's what they mean to them.

And a saturday morning cartoon villian merely exists to look scary, give the heroes (and their spiritual lieges) a non-challenge (because everybody knows the heroes are going to win) just to get smacked in the face and run into hiding while screaming "i'll be baaaaack!".

Current CSM status in a nutshell.


I dunno man. Cartoon villains at least had awesome looking figures and play-sets, The Techno Drome, Snake Mountain and the Terror Drome were badass. CSM models are mostly terrible outside FW and 3rd party and CSM doesnt get unique fortifications anymore.


Well, Dark Vengeance offers some pretty cool models. The fact that, after what DV brought, GW didn't bother to even release a new Chosen kit, speaks volumes about how much they care about CSM. The 6th edition codex was a sorry excuse to sell the new, shiny and expensive Dinobots & Hellturkey sets.

I'm also, perhaps, one of the few people that considers the base CSM plastic kit quite decent, specially considering how old it is. Its main problem is that you can't really build anything more functional than 5-man squads from it, as it only provides with a single special weapon of each kind, plus a heavy bolter. It does provide several plasma pistols, which is a good indicative of how much the game has changed since that kit was designed and produced (back then you could still buy special and heavy weapons in blisters iirc).

Other than that though, I'd agree most of the models range has not aged particularly well, and at the same time it's true their aesthetic has also evolved and 15 years later the DV models of course are going to look much closer to what a Chaos Marine is expected to be than a 15-years old kit.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I view the problem is that they hit their high point in 30k. Horus got to earth, besieged the palace, and almost killed the emperor. Yet he failed, the traitor legions were beaten back and largely broken, now they spend as much time fighting each other as the IOM. If Horus couldn't get it done, you need a well crafted story to make anyone else believable as a real threat.
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Korinov wrote:

Well, Dark Vengeance offers some pretty cool models. The fact that, after what DV brought, GW didn't bother to even release a new Chosen kit, speaks volumes about how much they care about CSM. The 6th edition codex was a sorry excuse to sell the new, shiny and expensive Dinobots & Hellturkey sets.

I'm also, perhaps, one of the few people that considers the base CSM plastic kit quite decent, specially considering how old it is. Its main problem is that you can't really build anything more functional than 5-man squads from it, as it only provides with a single special weapon of each kind, plus a heavy bolter. It does provide several plasma pistols, which is a good indicative of how much the game has changed since that kit was designed and produced (back then you could still buy special and heavy weapons in blisters iirc).

Other than that though, I'd agree most of the models range has not aged particularly well, and at the same time it's true their aesthetic has also evolved and 15 years later the DV models of course are going to look much closer to what a Chaos Marine is expected to be than a 15-years old kit.


I don't dislike the models themselves in our basic Chaos Marine kit, but I do really hate how awful the moulds are at this point... GW basically just added a handful of new bits to the old 3rd ed frame to give us a full 10 men and gave us 'new' upgrade frame. However, the basics of the kit - especially the legs, are typically full of blurred and/or mashed up detail.
The make-up of the kit in terms of upgrades isn't that far behind the new Tactical Squad kit, (though doubling up on the specials OR adding in a second heavy weapon option would be damned appreciated!), but it's pretty clear that the moulds are done at this point & the kit needs replacing.

Honestly though, I'd love to see a redone basic Chaos Marine kit that just polishes the current ones. Leave the super detailed & heavily mutated look for our specialists such as Chosen and Havocs. Not everyone wants an entire army of DV styled dudes, hence, it'd be swell if the basic kit remained just that - basic.
Essentially, in a similar way to the difference between the Tac Marine kit vs. the Sternguard/Vanguard levels of bling.

Our current Terminator kit needs to be tossed in the garbage bin where it belongs though... Most. Useless. Kit. EVER!

 
   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc




Kansas, USA

 Zed wrote:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.


I get that, but they don't all have to be stuck on Cadia getting blown to bits by artillery. Instead, some ships (one with Abaddon aboard) could be getting past and ravaging systems behind Cadia, despite the best efforts of the Imperial Blockade. Not enough to roll all the way to Terra, but enough to have everyone going "Oh feth, is this Heresy 2.0?".

As opposed to what we currently have, which is the Black Legion hunkering down in the Cadian wasteland while being urinated on from all directions. While the playerbase goes "lol FailBaddon"

I agree completely, I love the lore of the universe so much, but the current "stalemate" of everything is getting old. Personally, I'd be totally ok if they wrote some sort of major chaos victory on the other side of Cadia that seriously threatens Terra and it turns out that all these Crusades have just been a distraction to keep the all the focus there. Maybe a warpstorm that takes out the sector? I know creating a warpstorm takes some finesse on levels I don't quite understand, but Lorgar managed to make one happen in "Betrayer", and he only had to take out a couple of the planets. By no means is Abaddon at Primarch levels of awesome, but he is blessed by all four chaos gods and it would be nice to see something besides him just bashing his head against Cadia every update. Let Tzeentch take the wheel and get some higher thinking involved. Maybe he already has and each crusade is just a distraction while Huron was coming around back... Just as planned.

"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.

That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn  
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
 Zed wrote:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.


I get that, but they don't all have to be stuck on Cadia getting blown to bits by artillery. Instead, some ships (one with Abaddon aboard) could be getting past and ravaging systems behind Cadia, despite the best efforts of the Imperial Blockade. Not enough to roll all the way to Terra, but enough to have everyone going "Oh feth, is this Heresy 2.0?".

As opposed to what we currently have, which is the Black Legion hunkering down in the Cadian wasteland while being urinated on from all directions. While the playerbase goes "lol FailBaddon"

I agree completely, I love the lore of the universe so much, but the current "stalemate" of everything is getting old. Personally, I'd be totally ok if they wrote some sort of major chaos victory on the other side of Cadia that seriously threatens Terra and it turns out that all these Crusades have just been a distraction to keep the all the focus there. Maybe a warpstorm that takes out the sector? I know creating a warpstorm takes some finesse on levels I don't quite understand, but Lorgar managed to make one happen in "Betrayer", and he only had to take out a couple of the planets. By no means is Abaddon at Primarch levels of awesome, but he is blessed by all four chaos gods and it would be nice to see something besides him just bashing his head against Cadia every update. Let Tzeentch take the wheel and get some higher thinking involved. Maybe he already has and each crusade is just a distraction while Huron was coming around back... Just as planned.


Uh... Guys. Remember how back in 2003 we actually won the Eye of Terror campaign?!

And then all the Loyalist players got massively and b***** & whined non-stop to GW about how stupid the outcome of the campaign was...

And then GW decided that obviously it wasn't cool that Chaos actually won...

And hence we've sucked the motherload ever since we had the sheer audacity to think we could stand up to Little Timmy and his precious little Speesh Mehreeeens!

 
   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc




Kansas, USA

Experiment 626 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
 Zed wrote:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.


I get that, but they don't all have to be stuck on Cadia getting blown to bits by artillery. Instead, some ships (one with Abaddon aboard) could be getting past and ravaging systems behind Cadia, despite the best efforts of the Imperial Blockade. Not enough to roll all the way to Terra, but enough to have everyone going "Oh feth, is this Heresy 2.0?".

As opposed to what we currently have, which is the Black Legion hunkering down in the Cadian wasteland while being urinated on from all directions. While the playerbase goes "lol FailBaddon"

I agree completely, I love the lore of the universe so much, but the current "stalemate" of everything is getting old. Personally, I'd be totally ok if they wrote some sort of major chaos victory on the other side of Cadia that seriously threatens Terra and it turns out that all these Crusades have just been a distraction to keep the all the focus there. Maybe a warpstorm that takes out the sector? I know creating a warpstorm takes some finesse on levels I don't quite understand, but Lorgar managed to make one happen in "Betrayer", and he only had to take out a couple of the planets. By no means is Abaddon at Primarch levels of awesome, but he is blessed by all four chaos gods and it would be nice to see something besides him just bashing his head against Cadia every update. Let Tzeentch take the wheel and get some higher thinking involved. Maybe he already has and each crusade is just a distraction while Huron was coming around back... Just as planned.


Uh... Guys. Remember how back in 2003 we actually won the Eye of Terror campaign?!

And then all the Loyalist players got massively and b***** & whined non-stop to GW about how stupid the outcome of the campaign was...

And then GW decided that obviously it wasn't cool that Chaos actually won...

And hence we've sucked the motherload ever since we had the sheer audacity to think we could stand up to Little Timmy and his precious little Speesh Mehreeeens!
Well technically, I don't remember since I've only played since the beginning of 5th, but I have heard of it. Didn't it have something to do with advancing the plotline? Either way, I do think that's one of the biggest reasons why Chaos sucks right now though. That being said, Having a storyline where the Imperium is actually pushed back would be a lot more entertaining. Being backed against a wall breeds innovation, makes the forces more special and significant, and would also make them an underdog.... and people like to root for the underdog. Right now, the Imperium is none of those things... and boring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 03:23:10


"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.

That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn  
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

Tailessine wrote:
Chaos as a whole are marketed as the main villains- but chaos space marines are a very small element- only what, a few million at most in a whole galaxy? But when you add in renegades, cultists, traitors, daemons, beastmen even- then you have a substantial threat. This is why i am glad the latest codex at least allowed cultists as troops; hopefully the next one will expand on these and even have a ln hq for them as they really should be the dominant part of chaos armies. Fluffwise, a chaos army really should be:
Hq: rebel commander or psycher
Elite: maybe one unit of csm as a band of raiders who have instigated this uprising against the imperium; summoned daemons
Troops: cultists or rebel guardsmen
Fast attack: new unit needed!
Heavy: captured imperial vehicles




Not entirely true, but very accurate.

I cannot remember where I read it, but it was in a long ago book where it accounted the fight between several Companies of Ultra Marines and Chaos Forces, where one unhelmeted Chaos Marine was said to be the same Chaos Marine within the entire war. Essentially they went on to explain that in some sick way, the warp and immiterium essentially "Cloned" this Marine by wrenching his soul on several hundred thousand plains of existence, bringing them all to battle upon the same world.

Its odd to think of it like there could be hundreds of Abaddons, but within the Warp, there are multiple Dimensions and realities all with different plains of existence on their own, where one person can exists in MULTIPLE realities simultaneously

Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.

12,000
14,000
11,000

 
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
 Zed wrote:
 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
CSM won't get a serious stronghold or be taken seriously unless Abaddon and his black crusade takes the Cadian Gate. If the gate falls, then next stop is Terra. This means Creed is probably gonna die, IG is gonna be hurt. Imperium is now seriously threatened, and Abaddon is no longer a joke.


I get that, but they don't all have to be stuck on Cadia getting blown to bits by artillery. Instead, some ships (one with Abaddon aboard) could be getting past and ravaging systems behind Cadia, despite the best efforts of the Imperial Blockade. Not enough to roll all the way to Terra, but enough to have everyone going "Oh feth, is this Heresy 2.0?".

As opposed to what we currently have, which is the Black Legion hunkering down in the Cadian wasteland while being urinated on from all directions. While the playerbase goes "lol FailBaddon"

I agree completely, I love the lore of the universe so much, but the current "stalemate" of everything is getting old. Personally, I'd be totally ok if they wrote some sort of major chaos victory on the other side of Cadia that seriously threatens Terra and it turns out that all these Crusades have just been a distraction to keep the all the focus there. Maybe a warpstorm that takes out the sector? I know creating a warpstorm takes some finesse on levels I don't quite understand, but Lorgar managed to make one happen in "Betrayer", and he only had to take out a couple of the planets. By no means is Abaddon at Primarch levels of awesome, but he is blessed by all four chaos gods and it would be nice to see something besides him just bashing his head against Cadia every update. Let Tzeentch take the wheel and get some higher thinking involved. Maybe he already has and each crusade is just a distraction while Huron was coming around back... Just as planned.


Uh... Guys. Remember how back in 2003 we actually won the Eye of Terror campaign?!

And then all the Loyalist players got massively and b***** & whined non-stop to GW about how stupid the outcome of the campaign was...

And then GW decided that obviously it wasn't cool that Chaos actually won...

And hence we've sucked the motherload ever since we had the sheer audacity to think we could stand up to Little Timmy and his precious little Speesh Mehreeeens!
Well technically, I don't remember since I've only played since the beginning of 5th, but I have heard of it. Didn't it have something to do with advancing the plotline? Either way, I do think that's one of the biggest reasons why Chaos sucks right now though. That being said, Having a storyline where the Imperium is actually pushed back would be a lot more entertaining. Being backed against a wall breeds innovation, makes the forces more special and significant, and would also make them an underdog.... and people like to root for the underdog. Right now, the Imperium is none of those things... and boring.


Thats what GW promised back then, that the results will count and shape the futur if 40k, same for the Tempest of Chaos Campagne in battle.

Know what happened?, the results and fluff that they made back then to support the campainge in the Dwarfs, where just retconned and they flipped the finger to the millions of players that participated and made all this effort.

Since then they've lost my trust.

At least Eye of Terror campaigne ending was epic, while the Battle campaigne ending was just..., rodonculous, Grimgor the Orc Warchief, going through droves and hordes of Deamons, chaos warriors, Imperial knights and High elves just so that he could butt in in the duel between Archaon and Valten, right when Archaon was gonna behead Valten, Grimgor comes out of nowhere to head butt Archaon, throws his arms in the air for all to see and scream " I headbutted the biggest badass of this world!!! " *Drops the Mic, and then take his boyz back and leave the place...

And other bs like that, that just made people grind their teeths in frustration...

GW finally changed the setting of Battle 10 years after the campaign, only because they needed to start from scratch, not to make the plot line evolve and go forward, just because they drived the game so hard into the ground, that people wouldn't touch the thing even with someone else's dick on a ten feet pole...

If there is a new codex, we will have the same bs has the last 10 years" Abbadon and his forces are gathering to attack the Cadian gate in their 13th Black crusade", end of the plot.

The only place where they actually have taken into account the results of the EoT campagne is in IA13 iirc, where there is a page where they explain that even though Abby's forces forced the gate and are free to roam the Real space, imperial re-inforcements are sent to help Cadia, wich was razed to the ground and is now just a huge ball of dirt and trenchs networks.

But then its FW, they allways where smarter when they had to write the fluff then GW.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anime High School

We've been having this discussion for years, no offense. CSM are fundamentally limited in their abilities by the fact that literally everything they have is rare, stolen, or leftovers from the heresy era, including their Marines themselves. It's stressed in every piece of fluff that they have extremely limited resources, so it gives very little wiggle room as far as explaining their various conquests and crusades against the empire. The fluff almost makes you suspicious of them possibly being able to win, right? "how could they win against that enemy with so few Marines and no armored assets?""where did this rare relic come from? How did this relic last 10000 years?"

The one saving grace they have is that they have the warp, which is an atypical "random factor' plot device. It gives them a slight bit of creative freedom, ie, reinforcements from the warp, daemon incursion, ghostly CSM from beyond the void, etc.

I think they need to win some hard fought battles in the fluff against Space Marine chapters with large surpluses of power armor, land raiders, dreadnoughts, etc

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 03:55:09



 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

I think you have made a fundamental error in what you are considering as a villain. Chaos in the 40K setting is not about fighting grand battles to destroy the IoM. They did that already and they won (at least the chaos gods won and got exactly what they wanted). The remaining Chaos Space Marines are beholden to the chaos gods and thus their primary duty is to keep the IoM in the chaotic mess it is in and occasionally kick the bucket when the ants calling themselves humans get too lazy or get their act together. CSM are not the up and coming villain that has to win, they are the victorious villains that just have to not let the hero win.

Really if you want to hear about CSM where they actually cause some serious damage and aren't just cartoon villains (ie villains without teeth and evil) then you should read some of the imperial armour campaign books. Vraks is a very good showing for CSM and shows how CSM really can seize a sector and hurt the IoM on a large scale.

The problem is that in 40K CSM are such a minuscule faction (without daemons at least) that they seem comical within any thought out story. Much like SM "protecting the IoM" is a total joke once you consider that there is something on the order of 1 SM per IoM planet...there are even less CSM. Thus the reason for lots of "raids" but little to no stand up fights. CSM cannot fight the IoM on anything approaching an even footing. They are outnumbered by SM and are something like 1 million IG to 1 CSM. Thus CSM when they appear have to either 1) raid or 2) bring several times their number in allies (usually IG/PDF or daemons). If they conquer and stay then that lets the IoM gather forces and swat them like a bug. Chaos' real threat in the 40K setting has always been as a malevolent subverting force decaying the IoM like a disease. That is the beauty of the CSM concept. They don't need an army they just need a single sorcerer or lord to subvert a planet and open it to the warp. There are actually several stories in the fluff where this happens and entire planets or systems are lost. That is the horror of the IoM. The IoM needs to win all the time as they are fighting defensive wars. Their enemies just have to win once to cause permanent damage that the IoM will never recover from. That is where the Grimdark comes from.
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
We've been having this discussion for years, no offense. CSM are fundamentally limited in their abilities by the fact that literally everything they have is rare, stolen, or leftovers from the heresy era, including their Marines themselves. It's stressed in every piece of fluff that they have extremely limited resources, so it gives very little wiggle room as far as explaining their various conquests and crusades against the empire. The fluff almost makes you suspicious of them possibly being able to win, right? "how could they win against that enemy with so few Marines and no armored assets?""where did this rare relic come from? How did this relic last 10000 years?"

The one saving grace they have is that they have the warp, which is an atypical "random factor' plot device. It gives them a slight bit of creative freedom, ie, reinforcements from the warp, daemon incursion, ghostly CSM from beyond the void, etc.

I think they need to win some hard fought battles in the fluff against Space Marine chapters with large surpluses of power armor, land raiders, dreadnoughts, etc


Really would like to know where this is, never saw something like this...

And the ones in the fluff at least, with old stuff, so old that they don't know how to replicate it and they think its actual magic, its the Imperials, they are so dumb that they revere Old termie armors and the fluff goes on that Termi armors are rare and are relics of the past, yet they throw Termies here and there for some suicide missions or Space Hulks cleaning...

CSM has so many slaves that they don't know what to do with them, they are not restrained by morale codes and technological boundaries like Imperials are, and yet in-game our wargear sucks.

We have has much if not more Titans and Knights has the imperials, since the fluff says that Half of the Titans Legions and Knights households/freeblades sided with Horus.

We have battle ships powerfull/dangerous enough that we can tear Imperial Navy a new one.

Fluff, we are not worste then them, game wise, where in the dirt.

   
 
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