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 Vash108 wrote:
The GW logo now has a Chaos star in it. C... Could this be? Are the dark god about to bless us?

http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2015/11/tzeentch-makes-his-presence-known.html

Its the 30K Horus Heresy set they put out. They are promoting that I imagine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its the 30K Horus Heresy set they put out. They are promoting that I imagine.

It's more in in the AoS style, and we have the brand new Archaon model coming just in time for the Xmas rush.



Nothing to see here. GW doesn't give a rat's fart about us. Expect Tyranids, and I'm willing to bet Guard before we potentially get anything.

To be fair, Tyranids need fixing to. Outside Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Zoans, I have no reason to take anything. It's pretty lame.

Whether CSM's the fix more is up for debate. I think a lot of the core issues with CSM's are harder to fix than the Tyranid issues.

Guard need an update just as bad as CSM. Both of us have been mostly ignored by Gee-dubs in favor of Marines and Eldar and the other 7.5 factions. Our time will come.

"ignored" is a rather unfair thing to say. The Codex's have come out at an absolutely record pace! Frankly I'm in shock over how much has come so fast and there are a lot of armies to do, so... I have to kind of give GW a little bit of a pass in this regard.

I think by ignored they mean more the differences in the codexes. The new CSM and IG codexes were very subpar (as was the dark eldar codex) even at their release.

Before, CSM was nurgle build with DP and oblits being other standard units.
After, CSM is now nurgle build, with a few more HQs and a flyer being taken.

Not a lot changed, especially for the better. We are still stuck without legion rules, shoe horned into a nurgle build (Slaanesh is okay, but not nearly as good) and the same units still are awful and have been awful for...a really long time. Since 4th I'd imagine.

The IG codex, outside of a few units, are worse. They lost a lot of special characters and a few power units got toned down. In return they got a few good tanks that don't address the power units in other dexes and not a whole lot else.

Compare that to the eldar dex.
WS were slightly toned down.
Wraith guard are amazing.
Wraith knight is amazing.
Aspect warriors are, for the most part, really good and stand up to other options in other dexes. Eldar have been craving this since 3rd.
Saim-hann is now viable.
Seer council is still very strong, and psykers are really good.

Really, the only craftworld that suffered was Aliatoic, and it was more of a sideways move than any kind of nerf. Biel-tan, Ulthwe, Saim-Hann, and Iyanden are very competitive and can go up against any other codex.


There certainly seems to be a very big difference in how CSM, IG, Nids, and DE get treated in new dexes when compared to Eldar, SM, Space Wolves, and Tau. The former are usually really worried while the latter are usually very excited. I say this as someone who owns armies on both sides of the fence.

I give them a pass too when it comes to the 7.5 codices, but only to an extent. C'Tan still aren't worth much and anything a Monolith or bigger is slightly too expensive, Terminators and Tactical Marines aren't worth taking (and the latter are only taken because free Vehicles potentially), and Eldar function better under CAD since Bikes are just too good, Wraithknights are about 100 points under costed, Azrael sucks...

There's still more that could be done, including updating the early 7th codices. Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are called Codex: Taxi Services for a reason.

I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

 War Kitten wrote:
I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

revisionist history aside, the realiy is they were fine when they dropped. The problem was... 6th Edition dropped GW stock to almost in half, within about a year (roughly). THATS how big a deal it was. HATS how big a mistake it was and so they very quickly had to start developing 7. All the Codex's that got rapid fire released, sadly, anticipated 6E being around a lot longer. So This was just the nature of the beast. 6E's fall made some codex's have to work a little harder, but I just think it uunfair to say that the codex itself was the problem or that GW ws in some way sndbagging it when they did those codex's. I just find that insinuation kind of unfair.

What is true is that there are things they do now need to adjust. Chaos Psyker powers, the Dark Eldar Wyches, the Rough Riders (Make them Power lances for feths sake and give the horsies a +2 init,,,ta da!). I dunno. There's "stuff" they can improve, but there's only so much time in the day. Give 'em a chance and see what they come up with and then throw a fit, but i think they've been diligent enough in trying that we should give them some props for it.

I will gladly give GW props for some things. And the revisionist thing is something I'm not proud of. I'll just wait and see what they do I suppose.

Overall, I do like the speed of the releases. In fantasy, it took decades for some armies to get releases (looking at you Bretts).

That being said, a lot of codexes at release were terrible. The Tyranid dex has been accepted poorly at release for two editions now. There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers). Most of the nid dex is bad, with a few units that are OP and make the dex playable in a tournament setting. As a nid player, I get nervous whenever I hear we are getting a new dex. The rage when it was revealed cruddance would be working on it was venomous and widespread. Viable units seem to be shrinking for a while now for the nids. The MC spam dex was probably the best, since it offered a lot of customization and most of the units were good (Even if genestealers just delivered the brood lord).

The CSM and DE are in similar boats. Their last few dexes have been received poorly, as many trash units that people like are still trash. 1k sons players have been suffering for a very long time now, despite the fact psykers are pretty good now and an army that spams them should have some options. The Chaos lores being pretty terrible is weird. New ways to play are few and far inbetween (CSM gained psykers, but aren't very good at it since they lack div, despite you know... 1k sons). Many special characters have been removed from DE without anything being added. Wyches are awful now, and at least they had one use last dex. IG's last codex went over very poorly as well, and not only from the name change.

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters and rules that are fluffy and useful. The Eldar list exploded in terms of viable units. Tau seem to have gotten a few good things, but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).


I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, or even if GW needs saving. I know, financially, 6th tanked really hard while 5th did just fine. I'm not sure why they would ramp up many of the aspects of 6th that were unpopular and roll them into 7th instead of just fixing a few of the issues 5th had (wound allocation and tanks being the biggest offenders, outside of some codex balance). But 7th has been kind and harsh to different codexes...just like all the other editions.

 Jancoran wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

revisionist history aside, the realiy is they were fine when they dropped. The problem was... 6th Edition dropped GW stock to almost in half, within about a year (roughly). THATS how big a deal it was. HATS how big a mistake it was and so they very quickly had to start developing 7. All the Codex's that got rapid fire released, sadly, anticipated 6E being around a lot longer. So This was just the nature of the beast. 6E's fall made some codex's have to work a little harder, but I just think it uunfair to say that the codex itself was the problem or that GW ws in some way sndbagging it when they did those codex's. I just find that insinuation kind of unfair.

What is true is that there are things they do now need to adjust. Chaos Psyker powers, the Dark Eldar Wyches, the Rough Riders (Make them Power lances for feths sake and give the horsies a +2 init,,,ta da!). I dunno. There's "stuff" they can improve, but there's only so much time in the day. Give 'em a chance and see what they come up with and then throw a fit, but i think they've been diligent enough in trying that we should give them some props for it.

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

GW seemingly comes across as not giving a rat's fart about Chaos more so in how they've consistently ignored our entire model line... Leaving Sisters aside for now, (as they are the true red-headed step-devil-child), only Chaos players get shafted when it comes to the timely updating of our model line.

- Our entire line is still firmly rooted in 3rd edition. Loyalists got plastic Assault Marines in 2000 - we waited until ****ing 2012 for the same!
- Loyalists get Razorbacks and 5!! varients of Land Raiders - we get only Rhinos and the worst Land Raider in the entire game.
- Loyalists get 6!! different Terminator kits to play around with. Ours can't even build a playable squad and is missing half it's basic options... Not to mention that our heavy weapon upgrades are laughable to say the least.
- Loyalists have had [b]TWO[/b[ ****ing plastic Devastator kits! We have crappy fineco$t garbage that again, is an unplayable mess.
- Our only Cult kit is ancient and looks goofy as all feth. The rest of our Cult units are just ancient upgrade packs.
- Loyalists have routinely seen their armoury grow and grow. Ours has stayed exactly the same, except for ever-changing daemon weapons, and the great gutting of everything flavourful in 4th edition.
- Loyalists have plastic kits for every possible unit they can take. We're still missing basic kits for Cultists and Chosen.

After years of being so callously ignored by GW, we absolutely deserve nothing less than a DE styled re-boot.

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there. The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage. Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

See? You're learning. Put good things like that IN the codex and stop exthorting players to buy at Forge World prices!

Except that the FW prices aren't really all that different from the GW prices anymore...you don't have to use FW models for Rough Riders, and the FW Vraks book gets you two different army lists for *significantly* less than the cost of two codex books...

 Jancoran wrote:


Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments.

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

Lol. It actually DOES mean that. Because it actually functions and wins. So it literally actually does mean that.

So now... Not only do normal games not matter (because they're not tournaments)...Not only do RTT's not matter to you (because theyre not bigger tournaments) but now the LVO and Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament doesn't matter (because...um... Creative Generals proving again that codex's don't win and lose your game for you?)

Um...

Back to Chaos Space Marine talk!

 Jancoran wrote:


So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.

I've heard that before. The problem isn't that the dexes will get updated, its if GW will keep the same design philosophy long enough to keep the dexes on roughly equal footing. Before the new Necron Dex came out, everyone said GW was moving towards balanced codecies.

Ha ha!
That didn't really turn out well.
So, no. A new dex by itself doesn't necessarily fix anything.
(Especially when the Nid dex was declared crap from the beginning. Crap being "mono-build" in this case.

Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

Because they fail with codex balance more than succeed? Ignore past behavior if you like.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

Lol. It actually DOES mean that. Because it actually functions and wins. So it literally actually does mean that.

No, it means that you have one combination of things that works, and everything else is there as occasional filling.

So now... Not only do normal games not matter (because they're not tournaments)...Not only do RTT's not matter to you (because theyre not bigger tournaments) but now the LVO and Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament doesn't matter (because...um... Creative Generals proving again that codex's don't win and lose your game for you?)

Um...

Back to Chaos Space Marine talk!

The point was that the army you were referencing wasn't anything substantially different from normal Tyranid tournament builds, it swapped out some of the frills, but didn't really break the mono-build problem, they're all still built around that basic core of multiple Flyrants. The only reason anyone remembers it is simply because it included Lictors, but otherwise was just another flyrant-spam army. The army is critically reliant on spamming Flyrants, and usually minimizing investments in things like troops.

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

I'm going to repeat myself for the last time:

Lictors are fething garbage, and were used as 50 point Locator Beacons for the Mawlocs, which actually did damage with the Flyrants. It doesn't make Lictors good.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

Nah, facts and evidence don't matter. Everything is purely conjecture.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

Because they fail with codex balance more than succeed? Ignore past behavior if you like.

I'm actually not unhappy with most of their past work. Could I make suggestions for changes on any one of them? Sure. Always.

So there's not much to ignore. My worst reaction was to 5E Blood Angels and that wasn't because they made it suck. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there. The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage. Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

See? You're learning. Put good things like that IN the codex and stop exthorting players to buy at Forge World prices!

Except what else would we use to differentiate the Krieg riders? That has nothing to do with extorting players, especially when:
1. You can use the regular Riders for the models just fine
2. FW prices aren't crazy anyway. A Spartan, a bigger model than a standard Land Raider, is probably $110 compared to a $75 Land Raider. An Achilles is probably $10 more. Quit saying FW gouges people. It DOESN'T.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm going to repeat myself for the last time... bla bla

I was ignoring you because you have terrible research skills. Here is Sean's writing on how the list developed. At the very least, thank you for promising it's the last time you'll repeat yourself.

So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.

From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.

But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.

 Vaktathi wrote:

No, it means that you have one combination of things that works, and everything else is there as occasional filling.

The point was that the army you were referencing wasn't anything substantially different from normal Tyranid tournament builds, it swapped out some of the frills, but didn't really break the mono-build problem, they're all still built around that basic core of multiple Flyrants. The only reason anyone remembers it is simply because it included Lictors, but otherwise was just another flyrant-spam army. The army is critically reliant on spamming Flyrants, and usually minimizing investments in things like troops.

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

Both won. Both were different. Your anger at GW is fine, but it doesnt change the reality of what happened.

I agree on one point: Three flyrants is a beginning point for Tyranid armies right now. Definitely seems a wise place to start with them. I don't get why you care. Two Riptides is a very good start to a Tau army also. For Chaos marines, a Heldrake is an obvious starting point but that doesnt really tell you what to do next, and Chaos armies vary wiiiidely! Many armies have an obvious "good" starting point.

I hope you find a path to victory for your Chaos guys. "Monobuild" or otherwise. and if you open your mind to new ideas, maybe you will find more. Duking it out with me instead of leeching my brain of ideas seems like the worst of the two options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. FW prices aren't crazy anyway. A Spartan, a bigger model than a standard Land Raider, is probably $110 compared to a $75 Land Raider. An Achilles is probably $10 more. Quit saying FW gouges people. It DOESN'T.

Um... you cite a 50% increase over an already ludicrous price as not gouging? I have to agree to disagree.

@Jancoran, aside from optimizing the Prophet+Possessed another option is going into FMCs. In which case they become a lot like Flyrants, but supplying Cursed Earth rather than Synapse.

It's kind of cool to see how close CSM can get to Lictorshame, but competitively speaking the meta has changed a lot since then. Which can't really be ignored if you're building a 2016 list.

Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

 Jancoran wrote:
Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

But often change just for change's sake. It's seldom an improvement.