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Just had a look at the Kauyon update for the commander and noticed a couple of things that seem to be...wierd (only have Kauyon for White Scars/Raven Guard, don't have 2015 Codex).

1) As you replace the Crisis Suit with the Coldstar suit, do you effectively have an armour save of '-'?

2) Is it legal for the Coldstar to join a unit of Drones and Swoop (who will disappear when it Swoops)?
2a) What about for the drones that it can purchase?

3) Assuming 2 and/or 2a were correct, are the Drones allowed to fire while the Coldstar is swooping?

4) Assuming 2 and/or 2a were correct, can Look out Sir be taken against shots/grounding checks?

Thanks for clarifying in advance

1) the coldstar is listed in the battlesuits, retains 3+ and normal suit features.

2)while he retains IC, we really are not sure how that works. The joined drone unit would not vanish(only drones he takes do)

3)+4) the drones he takes are not on the table while he is swooping they can do neither.

Can someone provide me with the Rule stating the Armour Save listed on the Profile already includes any value granted by Wargear?
Other pieces of Wargear have a specific clause informing us when that has happened, such as the +1 Toughness granted to Bikes....

The grounding rules don't Include a 'then' in the wording for the grounding. This cooould suggest that the wound & glide mode happen at the same time. At this point you could roll forva LOS onto the 'immediately' placed drones.

Just a thought...

JinxDragon wrote:
Can someone provide me with the Rule stating the Armour Save listed on the Profile already includes any value granted by Wargear?
Other pieces of Wargear have a specific clause informing us when that has happened, such as the +1 Toughness granted to Bikes....

Well, looks like we've finally found a rule that you need the new codex for and not just the old codex and Kauyon. In the Appendix of the new codex there's a section called 'Battlesuits and Armour'. It lists all of the Battlesuits (remember the Stormsurge is an Artillery Suit) along with their armor saves and that all suits come with multi-trackers and blacksun filters. The Coldstar is listed as having a 3+ save.

Does it actually state the Armour Save is already included on the Model's Profile?

That is what I am highlighting:
Whenever Wargear changes a value on the Profile there is always a clause to inform us if those changes have already been included.

I have been left very curious if what we are witnessing is nothing more then an 'illusion' created by the Authors. It is entirely possible that players have been assuming that there must be a link because the two values are usually identical. While this conclusion would make sense on face value, I am questioning if there are actual Rules that inform us the profile already includes the Armour Save or if it is just something we have been assuming all along.

It's literally just a list. The first column says 'Battlesuit' and the second column says 'Armour Save'. The only other thing it says is the following:

The following battlesuits come equipped with multi-trackers (pg 122) and blacksun filters (pg 121).

Everything else is fluff (italicized text).

So nothing stating that the Armour Value on this piece of Wargear has already been included on the profile?

JinxDragon wrote:
So nothing stating that the Armour Value on this piece of Wargear has already been included on the profile?

Correct. So either its already been included and he has a 3+, or you apply it in place of his listed save and he has a 3+

JinxDragon wrote:
Does it actually state the Armour Save is already included on the Model's Profile?

That is what I am highlighting:
Whenever Wargear changes a value on the Profile there is always a clause to inform us if those changes have already been included.

I have been left very curious if what we are witnessing is nothing more then an 'illusion' created by the Authors. It is entirely possible that players have been assuming that there must be a link because the two values are usually identical. While this conclusion would make sense on face value, I am questioning if there are actual Rules that inform us the profile already includes the Armour Save or if it is just something we have been assuming all along.

It doesn't fething matter, he's wearing the damn suit, the suits armor save is 3+. Only an a*shole would seriously try to pull that that gak in a real game.

Ghaz,
Indeed, ultimately useless as long as the Authors keep up the illusion by ensuring the two values match... the day they do not, however, there might be a few questions.

McNinja,
No one is trying to find some sort of undisclosed exploit they can use, so why would it be ******** behaviour to understand how these Rules interact?

JinxDragon wrote:
Ghaz,
Indeed, ultimately useless as long as the Authors keep up the illusion by ensuring the two values match... the day they do not, however, there might be a few questions.

Its no different than power/terminator armour in any of the Space Marine codices. Do any of them say that the armour in their profile is already applied to the stat line? The only problem with the Kauyon book is they forgot to list what save the Coldstar has.

To my knowledge, no, which is why I find it a nice little curiosity.
Ultimately it doesn't matter as the Rules already account for the possibility that a Model may have more then one Save, even of the same type.

Only problem with kayun not listing the coldstar suit is the loss of multi-tracker and darksun filter.

Loss of multitracker is fine since it becomes MC and only has 2 guns; but darksun actually has an effect.

Of course that would be assuming that the coldstar from the new dex and the coldstar from kayun are different(which we know they are not supposed to be)

Just hit me that when Coldstar is grounded, its jump monstrous infantry with Skyfire. Something to consider.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just hit me that when Coldstar is grounded, its jump monstrous infantry with Skyfire. Something to consider.

SJ

If it lives, because if it has a shield generator there's a 50% chance it's dead as gak.

 McNinja wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just hit me that when Coldstar is grounded, its jump monstrous infantry with Skyfire. Something to consider.

SJ

If it lives, because if it has a shield generator there's a 50% chance it's dead as gak.

What I meant was that when Coldstar isn't flying, its a jump monstrous creature with Skyfire.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just hit me that when Coldstar is grounded, its jump monstrous infantry with Skyfire. Something to consider.

SJ

If it lives, because if it has a shield generator there's a 50% chance it's dead as gak.

What I meant was that when Coldstar isn't flying, its a jump monstrous creature with Skyfire.

SJ

FMCs only have the Skyfire Choice while Swooping, not Gliding. So if Jumping, then it cannot Skyfire.

Dang, I guess they really are useless. : (

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dang, I guess they really are useless. : (

SJ

That they are. My guess is that the design was by someone who didn't really know the rules, sort of like the burning chariot of Tzeentch. The WD battle report still makes me cringe.

Naw wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dang, I guess they really are useless. : (

SJ

That they are. My guess is that the design was by someone who didn't really know the rules, sort of like the burning chariot of Tzeentch. The WD battle report still makes me cringe.

I haven't seen it, what's so bad about it?

 McNinja wrote:

Naw wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dang, I guess they really are useless. : (

SJ

That they are. My guess is that the design was by someone who didn't really know the rules, sort of like the burning chariot of Tzeentch. The WD battle report still makes me cringe.

I haven't seen it, what's so bad about it?

It boils down to GW not being able to write good chariot rules and not following their own rules. There has been a lot of discussion in Dakka about this in the past.

Fwiw, I'd play the chariot the way I think they meant (ref the battle report).

Back to the thread. I can't find a single use for this coldstar commander. It is just too easy to kill to try the gun drones trick and the last straw is the inability to take any signature systems. If he was able to take the drone controller, I'd imagine he might be worth something.

 McNinja wrote:

Naw wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dang, I guess they really are useless. : (

SJ

That they are. My guess is that the design was by someone who didn't really know the rules, sort of like the burning chariot of Tzeentch. The WD battle report still makes me cringe.

I haven't seen it, what's so bad about it?

The problem with the burning chariot was back when it came out in 6ed the rider functioned exactly like an embarked unit in a transport. The burning chariot's only shooting was heavy weapons (1 torrent flamer gun and a d3 shot lascannon at 18") on the exalted flamer rider so if the chariot moved at all the rider counts as moving and had to snap fire its guns (one of which is a template weapon so can't fire at all)