How to Make the Riptide Reasonable

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**Taffy17**

The Wise Dane wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.
I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.

Tau suits have never been glass cannons in game or in fluff, they've always been the elite heavy infantry of the Tau and should be big tough and scary. I'll say again 3++ is a bit much for a riptide though and I believe if you remove the FNP people would be less keen to use the nova reactor and it wouldn't be too OP.

**The Wise Dane**

Taffy17 wrote:
The Wise Dane wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.
I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.
Tau suits have never been glass cannons in game or in fluff, they've always been the elite heavy infantry of the Tau and should be big tough and scary. I'll say again 3++ is a bit much for a riptide though and I believe if you remove the FNP people would be less keen to use the nova reactor and it wouldn't be too OP.

Well, Space Marines have never been told to die by Lasguns, but in the game they do. That the fluff want to tell a story about thin-limbed suits being more tough than main battle tanks is fine, but sometimes, commom sense gotta go into it.

I remember a story in the 6th Ed codex, where a formation of Riptides are blown apart by a coordinated boombardment by Deathstrike Missiles, only to have a single suit go out of the resulting crater, solely because it used the Nova Reactor and sheltered itself with the Shield. In the game, no Riptide can be destroyed by a Deathstrike Missiles, let alone an entire formation.

In the fluff, the thing is supposed to be an infantry support unit, that goes with the infantry and supports them - It's not said to be explicitly more hard than a Tank, but it ends up tougher than expected, because it can actually go with Infantry in a manner that the tanks rarely can. So, it's not a machine made to take dozens of anti-tank, it's a support vehicle to infantry. It's a tough nut to crack against infantry.

I think that says AV 12 more than anything, don't you?

**Taffy17**

At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.

**Martel732**

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.

Sure, it just never takes the wound. The Riptide is effectively immortal for its price. You have to shoot like 8X the point value of units at it to kill it. Immortal.

**Taffy17**

Martel732 wrote:
Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Crisis Teams have always be shock infantry using jetpacks to move heavy firepower into unexpected quarters and take on things like space marines. Broadsides are Heavy Support infantry

You did say a coordinated bombardment as well, 3 riptides in close formation could be killed by 5 of them.

Is the fact its tougher than a tank a problem with the riptide or a problem with vehicles in general? Why do you think the riptide is too tough? Is it FNP? 3++? 5++? 2+? T6? 5W?
Because a T6 5W 2+ MC isn't hard to kill in this age. I've said it multiple times, just scrap the FNP and it'd be fine.
Sure, it just never takes the wound. The Riptide is effectively immortal for its price. You have to shoot like 8X the point value of units at it to kill it. Immortal.

Hah! I run my Riptide without FNP and don't often role for the nova reactor and it dies loads! Don't let it take FNP and it's very very mortal.

**Martel732**

Very few weapons can even engage it at range and they all are all expensive with a poor rof.

**Taffy17**

I'll agree with you there, it shouldn't be 72" range, in the fluff its used to jump city walls and crash through the roof of buildings in ambushes. 30" far the IA would be far more appropriate.

**Martel732**

MCs and GMCs shouldn't have 2+ armor, either. Ever.

**Taffy17**

Maybe, does make them easier to wound with grav though.

**Martel732**

MCs and GMCs should NOT be immune to krak missiles. Riptides and DKs basically are.

**Taffy17**

I agree with you there as well maybe 3+ wouldn't be so bad, however I think that's more of a problem with how AP works, why should AP3 krak missile wounds have a 1/6 chance of hurting it while AP2 plasma gun wounds have 2/3 chance of hurting it?

**Martel732**

Taffy17 wrote:
I agree with you there as well maybe 3+ wouldn't be so bad, however I think that's more of a problem with how AP works, why should AP3 krak missile wounds have a 1/6 chance of hurting it while AP2 plasma gun wounds have 2/3 chance of hurting it?

The plasma gun should never have been given AP2 and the krak missile should always have been AP 2. But they're not.

**Taffy17**

There should really be some kind of rule that means it's easier for AP3 to get through 2+ than AP6. That would probably solve all our problems

**Martel732**

Taffy17 wrote:
There should really be some kind of rule that means it's easier for AP3 to get through 2+ than AP6. That would probably solve all our problems

Not all of the problems. I think with the current system, it would be easier to reassign the krak missile as AP 2, as it always should have been.

**The Wise Dane**

Now that you mention it, it's fun that a suit of armour made specifically to resist the heat of a fusion reactor can't stand up to Plasma weaponry...

**DoomShakaLaka**

I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

**Martel732**

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

**The Wise Dane**

Martel732 wrote:
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

**Vineheart01**

Which is kind of the point. Vehicles should be durable as hell, and aside from walkers not many vehicles are more than a single big gun with a couple small arms like heavy bolters on the side anyway. You pay for durability or killy, and currently vehicles dont really get either.
Also i didnt say Explode should do D3 damage as a whole, thats the existing SHV rules. My whole doubling of the HP thing was to prevent glancing to death from being a much, much more viable option than trying to explode it, but still possible. Essentially i want a medium between the old and new vehicle rules, where you CAN glance a vehicle to death but its not suppose to be reliable.

And i still say the Riptide's IA is the problem, not the riptide itself. Make it AP3 since its essentially the same damn gun as the Ionhead's cannon and only goto AP2 when nova charged. Not being required to take that risk like the Bursttides are makes them incredibly resilient because they basically lose 1-2 wounds on average per game if they do it every turn, and if theyre down to 1 they dont even want to risk it. Iontides dont have this problem, as they damn near never need the 3++ or the 4D6 jump.

**The Wise Dane**

Talking about why Tanks aren't killy, anyone have any ideas to enchance the strength of Vehicles? I've always kinda wanted some rule that made vehicles with Turrets work differently than they do natively, but haven't got an idea for it.

I have one idea tho, for the Predator variants - Predator Loading Mechanism: A Predator with an Autocannon or Twin-linked Assault Cannon shoots two more shots per shooting phase than what the weapon allows.

Gotta make those guns workable somehow.

**Martel732**

The Wise Dane wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

Assault units? Hardly terrifying.

**The Wise Dane**

Martel732 wrote:
The Wise Dane wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I am really liking the double HPs idea. It makes glancing an option, but it also makes it so you want to take dedicated anti-tank to use against armies.

Suddenly Land Raiders with Ceramite become terrifying though...

No, because they still aren't killy. They're fine.

They are terrifying for the load they carry...

Assault units? Hardly terrifying.

Is that your reaction to Assault Termies? I can assure you that my reaction to that would be "AAAAARGH SHIET"

**Martel732**

Assault terminators suck because once you add their cost to the transport's cost, you realize your opponent just flushed 1/3 of their list on that weak sauce.

Remember assault units assault what you choose for them to assault. So after they assault a throw away unit, you shoot them off the table and ignore the LR for the rest of the game.

**Vineheart01**

I dont like terminators as a whole. Assaulty or shooty they still have tremendous stats and rules to back up the role they arent doing so it jacks up their prices. They either deepstrike so they dont consume 1/3 of your list and fall victim to being in the open a turn, or use a landraider which makes them far far too expensive.
I have that problem with marines in general, not just TEQs. I dont enjoy paying for multitasking because either you pay out the ass for it or theyre halfassed at both. I look at any marine dex as an ork/tau player and i only see cheese as a viable option as any normal tactical thoughts are too expensive. They either bring something clearly underpriced and abuse the hell out of it, or pay too much for what they have on the field without it.
I intended to start a vanilla marine last codex drop, so i bought the dex. Spent like 3 months pondering tactics so i didnt have to buy a regiment in order to play them. Couldnt find one that was friendly-game worthy - always either horribly overcosted or utter cheese.
/rant

Yes i use Riptides even though i just said all that. I use them the way they were intended to be used though - theyre a frontline tank not a gunboat. Mine usually sits right behind my Piranha wall drawing fire while my firewarriors rapidfire the gak out of people and my other suits get good shots off.

**Martel732**

I shoot all the non-Riptide stuff first. Because shooting Riptides is usually a waste of shots.

**Vineheart01**

Martel732 wrote:
I shoot all the non-Riptide stuff first. Because shooting Riptides is usually a waste of shots.

This

Unless you can reliably kill it in no more than 2 rounds of shooting, ignore it. You will only invest way more points into removing it than its worth to begin with, and once ML are out of the picture it requires some pretty damn good dice luck to hit things due to BS3 and Gets Hot.
Told that to my friends, and the few that adhere to it actually beat me fairly often. Its going to do damage, yes, but thats because if it had say the Cyclic Ion Raker instead of the Ion Accelerator or Heavy Burst Cannon, you wouldnt even consider shooting it even if you could reliably kill it because it wouldnt be that big of a threat. A tank only works when things actually hit it, and if its guns isnt taunting enough it wont ever get hit.
Still say it should be AP3 without nova charge though. An S8 AP3 pi plate is still one hell of a threat if it doesnt Gets Hot or scatter to nothingness. Especially considering the only nonAP4 Ion gun we have is the Ion Cannon...which is an even bigger gun mind you...it shouldnt be AP2 by default.

**Martel732**

Still doesn't work for me, because ba.

**Korinov**

Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

**notredameguy10**

Korinov wrote:
Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

And again. Those classifications are not fluff based. They are not meant to accurately depict what the units are. They are to indicate the type of movement and abilities during gameplay. Riptides and Wraithknights are fast, agile, front line fighters; aka monsters creatures. Walker vehicles are slow, lumbering entities like dreadnoughts, and thus the rules reflect that.

**Vineheart01**

Korinov wrote:
Taffy17 wrote:
At least a Riptide can be wounded by a lasgun unlike a Wraithknight.

Saying that the Wraithknight is even more cheese than the Riptide does not make the Riptide any less cheese.

Both should be walker vehicles, as easy as that. Because neither are monstruous creatures to begin with.

Its not as simple as that. People who just say "they should be a walker" dont ever dig into the whats and ifs of that statement.
Its not only incredibly unfluffy to make either a walker, it also completely breaks the unit either in an OP way or useless way. Part of this is piss poor vehicle/walker rules i'll admit, but that doesnt mean anything. Walkers are slow and lumbering machines, while the MC "Walkers" behave just like a normal person in terms of reflexes and speed if not more.
Even if walker rules would benefit the riptde i wouldnt want it to be a walker because it makes no damn sense to be a walker unless ALL of our suits were walkers. Theyre all the exact same thing, just larger versions of each other. Stealth suits are easily Power Armor type gear but our Crisis Suits would be along the lines of a Killa Kan if they were a walker, not power armor. Why would one suit be infantry and another be a vehicle? Makes no sense.
And if you make them all vehicles, again you either render them all totally useless because the AV is too low, or broken because suddenly Tau spam insane amounts of decent to high AV.